A clutch I definitely won't forget! When bad odds finally turn good...

There's still a joke with some of my friends that I don't know how to hatch anything but normals after last year...I didn't have bad odds, I got shut out a couple of times, I had no odds (two 7 egg clutchs, from inc dom males x normal females, 14 normals)...well this season it turned around some. One clutch a silver bullet x pastel gave me one cinny, one sterling and six pewters...wanting to make pewters was a huge part of why I even bought the bullet, I just think they're awesome looking.

The dream clutch though, was a hypo pastel male, to a female that I recieved as a pastel het hypo and possible low expression enchi. I wrote her off awhile back as having enchi in her, just didn't think it was there as she matured. I got 6 eggs out of the pairing and apparently she was determined to prove me wrong about the enchi gene not being there...I had written it off being there in my head to the point that I didn't even see it right in front of me until someone pointed it out...actually it was just a comment "check out the cool reduced pattern banding on that pastel!"...and I was even missing the four leaf clover head stamp on it, which you don't get much more of a neon sign saying what a morph is than that...but I'd written it off in my head so I totally missed it.

Well to get to the clutch, as I said, the female was determined to prove me wrong about her not being enchi...six eggs, six enchis. One of the clutches I missed on last year btw, was a enchi x normal and got seven eggs, seven normals. I guess here are the missing enchis I should have had last year, I'll take it! On the hypo gene, hypo x het, I went five out of six...awesome! The pastel x pastel part, I got three pastels and three supers...the numbers you would expect and hope for out of a pastel x super pairing.

Final breakdown, on top center of the pic is a pastel enchi het hypo...the two outside of that one are two hypo pastel enchis...and all three across the bottom of the pic are super pastel hypo enchis. I realize the pic isn't the greatest, I'm finding it being an extremely thin line from being too dark to washed out and this was the best I managed.


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psd33be1e8.jpg
It took a random comment about the pastel from one friend, my girlfriend, and two more friends seeing them and telling me what I had before I actually let it sink in and believed what all I just hatched...I wish for everyone to have a clutch at some point that they feel like for them is just so amazing, that it's too good to be true.

Best of luck to everyone with their season!

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

two 7 egg clutchs, from inc dom males x normal females, 14 normals

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Brutal. You were due for a change of luck. Congrats!

Those are memorable clutches... congrats....

Congrats on finally making more than Normals...Do you have better pics of the clutch and pics of the Pastel Enchi mom? Not really seeing any Enchi...

Congrats....not sure you hit on 6 enchis but they look good nonetheless.

I totally understand them being questioned, they aren't as obvious reduced pattern banded as what we normally think of enchis as being...if you could see them in person, what's obvious is that they're all the same thing. The one that isn't hypo is the easiest to see the enchi in...and when I took them over to Tom Harbins house he has some enchis from a super enchi last season, comparing this clutch to that one it was easy to tell they're all enchi. I have another pic of the clutch I can post and I'll see what I have of the female...no new pics right now because everything is in shed.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...69058733_n.jpg

This is mom, who as I said before I had written her off as being enchi, I didn't think she was...several of us were really on the fence about her when she first hatched.

https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/...84557288_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...55813537_n.jpg

Congrats, can't ask for better odds. :gj:

Yeah she is just a nice Pastel, no Enchi. Still a nice clutch though!


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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Yeah she is just a nice Pastel, no Enchi. Still a nice clutch though!


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Thats what I thought also...but the babies in the clutch say differently. The father to the clutch is an older hypo pastel who has fathered a lot of clutches so it's definitely not him and this was a first time breeding for the female, so no chances of it coming from anywhere else. I think you should be able to see the enchi in the pastel easy enough in the last picture I posted of the clutch. Comparing the babies to ones my friend has from a super enchi x superblast pairing last season erased any question for us looking at them in person.

If anyone here is in the southeast, I am planning to have the whole clutch at the Dixie reptile show in Birmingham AL at the July show, you're welcome to come check them out in person.

Beautiful babies, but I dont see any enchi either :confusd:

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

I think you should be able to see the enchi in the pastel easy enough in the last picture I posted of the clutch.

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The banding does give it a nice Enchi look, however I don't think there's any Enchi there. Just nice banding and nice Pastel genes...

I'm not surprised by the doubting...they'll be seen by more people in person, experienced people, in the near future. :)

You said you had 14 normal babies from two inc dom males and then you said one 7 normals clutch was Enchi, but that's a co-dom.. Just saying.. :)

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Originally Posted by kikkimea

You said you had 14 normal babies from two inc dom males and then you said one 7 normals clutch was Enchi, but that's a co-dom.. Just saying.. :)

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Actually...no, it's not. Incomplete dominate/inc dom is the correct term for it, not co-dom.

Sorry, I didn't pay attention when reading this, I was thinking of unproven dominant, such as Spider and Pinstripe..:)

They both mean the same thing, but most people, myself included, say co-dom and so does WOB, so let's not split hairs ok;)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/a3ega7ez.jpg

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Originally Posted by kikkimea

Sorry, I didn't pay attention when reading this, I was thinking of unproven dominant, such as Spider and Pinstripe..:)

They both mean the same thing, but most people, myself included, say co-dom and so does WOB, so let's not split hairs ok;)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/01/a3ega7ez.jpg

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Actually, no. The correct term would be incomplete dominance. The ball python community just commonly uses the incorrect term. Its not big deal, but the biologist in me couldnt skip over someone saying they are the same thing.

Easy example - Flower with one allele for white petals and one allele for red petals.
Codom - You get a flower with solid red spots and solid white spots on its petals, no pink (mixing).
Incomplete Dom - You get a flower with all pink petals (no solid white or red).

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Actually, no. The correct term would be incomplete dominance. The ball python community just commonly uses the incorrect term. Its not big deal, but the biologist in me couldnt skip over someone saying they are the same thing.
Easy example - Flower with one allele for white petals and one allele for red petals.
Codom - You get a flower with solid red spots and solid white spots on its petals, no pink (mixing).
Incomplete Dom - You get a flower with all pink petals (no solid white or red).

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Could you give an example with ball pythons then? We're not breeding flowers:)

Sorry, flowers are the common example.

I think an easy one would be the BEL complex. When you breed a super lesser BEL to a normal you get hatchlings that have one BEL allele and one normal allele. Lessers are significantly lighter than normals but are not as white as BEL. They are also evenly lighter all over their body (red+white=pink, incomplete dominance). If it was a codominant situation, the hatchlings would look very similar to pieds. They would have sections of pure white and sections of normal coloration, but no intermediate color (white+red=large splotches of both colors, co dominance).

The same is true with super pastels, enchis, spotnose, black pastels and all the other genes we commonly call codom.....in all cases the animals with a single allele look different from both the super and normals, having an intermediate look. If all those genes were codoms, we would have a lot of animals looking like they were splashed with different colors of paint.

Thank you for adding your 2 cents and giving an explanation of the terms...I've often used the example of if an ivory was a codom, it's het form would look like a pied even though I wasn't sure how exactly correct that is, it seems to help people start to make the connection with what the terms actually are.

WoBP is a great site and helps a lot of people, but it isn't perfect, it has it's mistakes, and unfortunately perpetuates the incorrect terminology that the BP world seems determined to stick with.

I've heard 2 common examples of codom as it is correctly used in biology. Red & white spotted flowers is one. Roan cattle is another, where although the overall look is a "pink" cow, when you look closely, each individual hair is either red or white. So red & white both COexist, thus COdom.

I can't think of a single example of actual codominance in BPs, but somehow that is the term that gets used. If all the morphs we call "codom" actually were, then they'd all look like various versions of pied! Or they might have a speckled look because each scale is either color A or color B. Like lesser scales randomly distributed beside normal scales.

Honestly, a lot of the BP morphs don't fit terribly well in the definition of incomplete dominance. Pastel does. You have normal, then pastel (more yellows & blushing), then super pastel (lots more yellows & blushing). If you were shown a normal and a pastel, you could guess reasonably well what the super form looks like. Just like the transition from red to pink to white flowers. But some of the other morphs have super forms that really don't look like "even more of the same thing" the way super pastel does.

Which ties in to an explanation I often give when people ask how hets for a recessive trait can show through. Doesn't recessive mean there is no visible change in the het form? The problem is that dominant, recessive, incomplete dominant and codominant are words that humans made up to attempt to describe things they saw in nature. However, Mother Nature never agreed to play by those rules. The definitions do not perfectly describe all the variations that we see in nature.

Oh, one thing I wanted to add. Although incomplete dominance and codominance do not mean the same thing, they do work exactly the same as far as inheritance patterns. So although it isn't technically correct, it works for predicting what % of a clutch is likely to be what morph.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

Thats what I thought also...but the babies in the clutch say differently. The father to the clutch is an older hypo pastel who has fathered a lot of clutches so it's definitely not him and this was a first time breeding for the female, so no chances of it coming from anywhere else. I think you should be able to see the enchi in the pastel easy enough in the last picture I posted of the clutch. Comparing the babies to ones my friend has from a super enchi x superblast pairing last season erased any question for us looking at them in person.

If anyone here is in the southeast, I am planning to have the whole clutch at the Dixie reptile show in Birmingham AL at the July show, you're welcome to come check them out in person.

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The baby pics are what I saw to see there was no Enchi in that clutch...Mom pics back it up...Sorry to be the one to burst your bubble!

I don't see the Enchi either, but still a great hit on those hypos! Beautiful clutch! :gj:

So did you ever find anyone with more experience to confirm these all have Enchi in them?


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In the OPs defense you can find no less than six Enchis that look almost exactly like the female he posted with a two second Google image search, some of them have known breeder watermarks on the pictures. This particular board more than any other has this romantic idea about the perfect Enchi and what it should look like.

In this board's defense, you can also search my name on Google and get results that would tell you I'm an attorney in Chicago. I'm not either if those things.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

In this board's defense, you can also search my name on Google and get results that would tell you I'm an attorney in Chicago. I'm not either if those things.

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Neither here nor there. What is your point? My point is you can find plenty of "Enchis" online from MANY different sources that look exactly like the OPs snake and I'm not even stating his snake is an Enchi. Basically from what I've actually seen and read is if it's not a textbook example of an Enchi...it's not an Enchi. Sorry it stings.

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Originally Posted by Ransack

Neither here nor there. What is your point? My point is you can find plenty of "Enchis" online from MANY different sources that look exactly like the OPs snake and I'm not even stating his snake is an Enchi. Basically from what I've actually seen and read is if it's not a textbook example of an Enchi...it's not an Enchi. Sorry it stings.

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My point is simply that anyone can make a square peg fit in a round hole by making the hole bigger. Just because it fits, doesn't make it round.

I understand your point as well, and am not offended by your comments at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a grasp on what good looks like when it comes to any particular morph - Enchi or otherwise. Sometimes those desired characteristics are personal preferences, and sometimes those characteristics have been defined by the morph itself. A knowledge of these things is beneficial when making purchase or holdback decisions for your own collection and consequently being able to identify and market the babies you produce.

I like being a part of a board that has an eye for quality. :)

Congrats on a good looking group POGs and SPOGs are always great but I don't see any trace of enchi in them at all either.

FYI, just because you read it on the net or google doesn't make it true. ;)

Also seeing no enchi. Banding and pattern reduction are highly heritable traits - I think that's why you have 6 babies with the same 'enchi-esque' look. The colors and head patterns are all off. Great babies and great odds, though!