I want my BP to put on some weight

To me my BP Spazz is lookin a bit thin She eats large mice do I go rats or just give her a mice or two more?

If he/she is big enough ... it might be time to switch to rats. Feeding one prey at a time is better than multiple.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by led4urhead

If he/she is big enough ... it might be time to switch to rats. Feeding one prey at a time is better than multiple.

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I agree with you that feeding one prey at a time seems better.
I've heard from others on this forum that multiple prey items are better, because thats what they do in the wild. :?

Also, when picking out Mice/rats ... pick one a little bigger than the widest part of your snake.

Is the whole picking the prey a lil bigger supposed to do somethin

Yes, your bp will do a little breakdance after it eats it. :bounce:

Usually you gauge your prey size by matching it to the size of the thickest part of your snake. It doesn't necessarily have to be a bit bigger. As long as the rodent you get it the same size as your snakes thickest part, it's perfect. A litle bigger just means you'll see a noticable lump and it's a bit more filling I guess.

Cool

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I agree with you that feeding one prey at a time seems better.
I've heard from others on this forum that multiple prey items are better, because thats what they do in the wild.

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No...that's not the reason. Not that I wan't to start the discussion again, but here's a link for more info:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/index.ph...ghlight=#50541

I just wonder though, what's the reasoning behind when people say it's better to feed one prey item? I only ask because it's one of those things people say but never include the reason - so I wonder if it's one of those 'rules' that someone stated and just continues to be repeated w/o any facts/proof behind it. :)

A former regular of this forum was emphatic in encouraging that position, if you recall TigerG. His theory was that it wasn't as hard on the digestive system. My thought is, as long as the snake is getting enough to eat of nutritious prey items (not pinkies or wild-caught rodents, etc.), then the only really important factor left is whether the prey is offered live. I don't think an adult ball python who eats 5 mice every 10 days is 'suffering' any more than one who eats 1 large rat every 10 days.

Just a lot more fur to move through the digestive system. Rat bran all the way, baby!

Now there is an opening for an interesting study. One group on mice, the other on rats. Same feeding schedule, similar mass/feeding (ie. 3-2 oz mice vs 1-6 oz rat), and compare the weight of the waste material produced per snake. That would give us how much waste material has to be processed by the snake, compared to the initial weight of the prey animal. Any takers?

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Originally Posted by Marla

A former regular of this forum was emphatic in encouraging that position, if you recall TigerG. His theory was that it wasn't as hard on the digestive system. My thought is, as long as the snake is getting enough to eat of nutritious prey items (not pinkies or wild-caught rodents, etc.), then the only really important factor left is whether the prey is offered live. I don't think an adult ball python who eats 5 mice every 10 days is 'suffering' any more than one who eats 1 large rat every 10 days.

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I do recall that Marla (somewhat), but the impression I got was that that person was just saying it didn't matter much - I'm curious to know why/how one can say it is definitely better to feed one versus multiples - and why that is better. I can buy saying it's better to feed multiples, and I can buy saying it isn't as important or doesn't matter much - but I'm having trouble figuring out why one would say it's better to feed one prey item and not multiples. Just a quirk of mine I guess - especially since getting into herps I've learned a lot of info is simply regurgitated as if gospel w/o anyone questioning it or being able to back up what they repeat. Guess there's a bit of scientist in me that wants the facts. :) Pardon my babbling! :wink:

The individual I have in mind was very clear that he believed one prey item was superior to multiple, but not clear in supporting that position with any evidence. There is the anecdotal evidence of increased growth rates once ball pythons are switched to rats, which probably at least supports the contention that it would be better for breeders to stick to one appropriately-sized prey item per meal, but since increased caloric intake is at least tentatively linked with reduced life span in herps, it may be better for those who have no reason to rush growth to stick with multiple prey items.

I would also think consistency in sustaining the feeding response might be a supportable reason:

A hungry BP might take down a rat, but there's no guarantee he will take X number of small prey items - say he gets demotivated scared etc etc after the first item and doesnt go after the second. Fiar enough on the flipside what if he doesnt take the single larger item at ALL? If it's a safer bet that the first prey item will be consumed I say go bigger if only to guarantee it gets the max meal instead of gambling on multiples. Maybe that's too pragmatic a view of it - but it is certainly easier from a husbandry standpoint to feed a single as opposed to multiple items.

That is definitely a good point, Smulkin, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, what if the snake has a better innate or instinctive understanding of its caloric needs than its keeper does? I know ball pythons are notorious for going off feed for months, but it's not as if they've actually gone extinct from this behavior, so maybe if it just wants one mouse, it just needs one mouse.

Sure. Sesha has taken some proportionally huge rats and has on occasion sat out a feed the following week before, and I can dig that. I'm not a proponent of power-feeding at all so I'm not backing the approach to jam them as full as possible as often as you can but heck why not let them put their jaws to use. Devil's advocate to your devil's advocate (or maybe even co-counsel) maybe it would be harder for them to move with 3 mice lined up in their belly than a single rat? Ponder these mysteries glasshopper, what is the sound of one snake clapping?

Sssssssss....

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Originally Posted by Marla

Sssssssss....

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http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/laugh2.gif Good one Marla.

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Yes, your bp will do a little breakdance after it eats it.

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lol, I needed a good laugh, thanks Code.

As for my adult Bp Goblin, I am lucky if he will show interest in one rat , let alone eat more than one in one feeding! If I relied on feeding him several prey items, he would probably lose interest after eating the first one, and the consequence would be that he'd have less nourishment. But if I just fed the large rat (which is what I do do) then all is well.

the reason its better is because 1 rat is more nutritious than 15 pinkies......get it? its better for your snake.

just lke if you were at a resturaunt. You wouldn't buy 3 small drinks, you would buy 1 large drihnk. Reason: Pricings
if you were a snake. You wouldnt eat 15 pinkies, you'd eat 1 rat.
Reason: Nutrition

That's not the example of feeding multiples we're discussing. Of course there is a vast difference in nutrition in the example you provided and the answer is clear. It would be foolish for someone to feed 15 (of anything, especially pinkies) instead of one rat. Pinkies are mostly fat. We're talking about say 2 adult mice versus a large mouse (or even 2 small/medium ratsas opposed to one large rat)....something of that nature where the nutritional content is not that different.

The larger an animal is, the less surface area there is relative to mass. Therefore, there is less indigestible material such as hair. However, it may be good for a snake to have extra hair going through its digestive system; perhaps like us eating more fiber. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply more practical to feed rats. 1 medium adult rat (approximately 150g) is the equivalent of 6 large mice. If you happend to have lots of access to mice, and very little access to rats, by all means feed mice. However, I think in most circumstances, that would not be the case.

I was just giving an example. Ex: You wouldnt feed 3 large mice, you would feed one rat. Reason: Nutritional Value
Ex: you wouldnt buy 3 small drinks you would buy 1 large drink
Reason: Money
Why would you feed yoru snake 2 mice when it can eat a rat?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonBabe448

I was just giving an example. Ex: You wouldnt feed 3 large mice, you would feed one rat. Reason: Nutritional Value
Ex: you wouldnt buy 3 small drinks you would buy 1 large drink
Reason: Money
Why would you feed yoru snake 2 mice when it can eat a rat?

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If your snake will eat a rat....again, I'm not talking about mice vs rats - but rather say 2 smaller mice vs one larger mouse or 2 smaller rats vs one larger rat. Not that it matters really since there's no real big difference between nutritional values between mice and rats.

And as stated in my original post....here's why: http://www.ball-pythons.net/index.ph...ghlight=#50541

And besides, there still isn't much nutritional difference between say 2 small/med rats versus 1 large rat....it's mostly just bigger food. There's no real substantial difference in nutritional values between mice and rats, and there's no large nutritional increase as you move from a smaller prey to the next size (I'm speaking more when you get to the various adult sizes, and jumbo and collossal, etc. There is of course a difference in say fat when you go from a pinky to the next sized fuzzy or of course a difference in fat/calcium if you go from pinky all the way up to an adult).

I realize that it is more convenient for use as owners to feed one item instead of 2-3 - especially when you have a large collection and possibly finicky eaters. And I'm certainly not knocking anyone who feeds that way. I have some snakes that I don't think I'd be able to feed multiple f/t prey (live yes, but f/t not likely) - so they don't get multiples. But my other snakes I rotate for variety. Sometimes they get one large (the largest they can handle), sometimes they get 2-3 smaller prey that equal that one large, sometimes they get 1 prey slightly smaller than what they can handle - and sometimes (particularly with my bp) they call the shots by taking all, some or none of what I offer (usually based on whether they are shedding or maybe based on what they ate last).

Besides, my original post (as stated) was not to get back into the debate of which is better mice or rats or feeding multiples versus one large item. We've had these discussions before, and in the end it seems for the most part we agreed: it's up to the owner, it certainly doesn't hurt to feed rats instead of mice as long as the prey size and frequency of feedings are correct, it doesn't hurt to feed multiples instead of 1 item, raising your own rodents is better because you know they're health....and oh yeah, feeding f/t or even prekilled is better than live. :) And even there are those who said they believe variety (in prey type, size, frequency of feeding, etc) is very important.

My post was addressing the issue that there are 'rules' in herp keeping that many just repeat because that is what they were told w/o thinking it through or asking for proof, etc. We have information as to why feeding multiples is better, but still no reasons as to why feeding one item is better than multiples - other than convenience (and possibly finicky eaters). But I've not heard any healt realated reasons. I guess I was just attempting to see if anyone had found anything to support that thought yet (as I'm also interested in learning more rather than just accepting what I read as gospel w/o question), and to maybe challenge some to actually think about these 'rules' we learn about when researching herp care. Doing volunteer work in animal education at the zoo, I get asked all kinds of questions and like to have as many answers as possible; therefore, I'm always trying to expand my knowledge base - and knowing the 'why's is important in achieving that.

I posted a simlar question not long back and I was wondering what, in summation, the final conclusive answer was for Tiger's post, if there is one? I am having a similar problem only I know that my baby has lost muscle tone and I really want him to get healthy.

Padiente, is your bp eating at all - if so, what and how often? If not, when is the last time it ate and what have you tried feeding (live, f/t, pk) and using what metods?

Hmm..
Well, I have been maintaining my large BPs on one medium size rat about every 10 days and they are gaining weight and size. I myself think that one good size rat is a lot better than two or three mice....I tend to keep my BPs hungry...I dont overfeed them and it seems as though when I do feed them they are ready to take the prey down and consume it with no problems. No regurgs either. And so far they have been putting on some serious size.
EyeLashViper

How bout another bad human analogy - eating a pound of chicken wings vs a pound of chicken breast? Which has more meat and less waste?

We chew our food first to break it down for more surface area and absorbtion, the slithery ones do not

My $0.02. I was talking to Colette from " The Snake Keeper" and she recommended that I feed my girl a small rat twice a week instead of multiple mice in one sitting. If they are aggressive feeders, she said this would help put on the weight. I was not able to implement her advise because Marge started her shed. I'll try again next week.

Hmm... this is a bit off topic, but i didnt want to start a new thread... since Pandora is eating rats now, can i start feeding her every 2 weeks??? before she had one large mouse every 4-5 days cuz she was always so hungry. but the rat isnt exactly small... so would every 2 weeks be ok??

Semper .. you could just scale back to once every 10 days if you wanted to. How old is Pandora now? When you say rats, how big of a rat?

how old is she? if 2 1/2 to 3yrs old it would probably be ok. younger than 2yrs she still has some growing to do i would stick to weekly.

thanks

vaughn