Regular albino vs high contrast albino

Does anyone here a pic of hatchling albinos, one being a high contrast and the other being a regular allbino side by side?

Is that snake in your avatar pic yours?

No. He's the dad. I hatchef out 1 albino out of four eggs. They havent went thru their first shed yet. But i wanted an idea what to look for

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/15/u8e5ezu9.jpg here she is right out of the egg.

High contrast albinos and regular albinos are one in the same. The base morph (normal in this case) is really the variation in the morph. It's the same argument with mojaves v.s. brian gundy's gold line mojaves. I don't care what people get credit for but if you breed an albino to a high contrast albino you get an albino. It's the same line - just bred for contrast.

If you look at the WOBP http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/albino/ - and go to picture 6, i would consider the example on the left to be high contrast and the one on the right to be average.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by decensored

High contrast albinos and regular albinos are one in the same. The base morph (normal in this case) is really the variation in the morph. It's the same argument with mojaves v.s. brian gundy's gold line mojaves. I don't care what people get credit for but if you breed an albino to a high contrast albino you get an albino. It's the same line - just bred for contrast.

If you look at the WOBP http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/albino/ - and go to picture 6, i would consider the example on the left to be high contrast and the one on the right to be average.

---

Oh ok i see what u mean. Im just wondering because i know the price is a bit different.

Higher contrast has historically brought a higher price point because a lot of people consider them better examples of the morph. Just like people are more likely to pay more for a higher white calico than a lower white calico. I just find the market saturated with pseudomorphs it's a bit redundant.

:rolleye2:

Also don't be fooled by "het high contrast albino". It is pretty reasonable to assume the high contrast part comes from other genes that compliment the albino, not the albino gene itself. Meet a few people who were disappointed from buying high contrast hets. If you want a high contrast albino, just buy one and save yourself some heartache later.

My high contrast tiger albino girl at about 300 grams. She is orange and white. High contrast is line breeding or selective breeding for dark long lasting coloration in the albino. If I were to breed this high contrast to a normal albino, her babies would not be as vibrant as her.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9e3f9ef9.jpg

Agree with what everyone else says, 'high contrast' is marketing. There are some albinos that look brighter as adults but that's not so much a simple genetic trait as it is selective breeding. One problem is that albinos all look pretty much 'high contrast' as hatchlings. A real high contrast albino is just one that doesn't fade as much as it ages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

She is orange and white.

---

Need to have your eyes checked,I see yellow and white.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grcforce327

Need to have your eyes checked,I see yellow and white.

---

You need to get your eyes check because there clearly red too


Sent from my iPhone

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...e/P1030483.jpg
This girl has toned down her colors

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...e/P1030397.jpg
She is keeping her color and brightness so far at just under 1000g.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grcforce327

Need to have your eyes checked,I see yellow and white.

---

You are kind of rude you know! The intent of my post was to be helpful to the OP whereas the intent of your post was to be hurtful.

This is yellow
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps53898a91.jpg
And this is orange
according to the color keys right here on the forum. Looks a lot closer to the orange letters than the yellow ones. Hope you have a great day:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

My high contrast tiger albino girl at about 300 grams. She is orange and white. High contrast is line breeding or selective breeding for dark long lasting coloration in the albino. If I were to breed this high contrast to a normal albino, her babies would not be as vibrant as her.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9e3f9ef9.jpg

---

Thats a pretty albino. She looks very bright

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Also don't be fooled by "het high contrast albino". It is pretty reasonable to assume the high contrast part comes from other genes that compliment the albino, not the albino gene itself. Meet a few people who were disappointed from buying high contrast hets. If you want a high contrast albino, just buy one and save yourself some heartache later.

---

I dont believe in het high contrast. I know high contrast albinos come out randomly just like a high white and low white pied

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...e/P1030483.jpg
This girl has toned down her colors

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...e/P1030397.jpg
She is keeping her color and brightness so far at just under 1000g.

---

She's alot brighter than my 1000g male albino http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/16/enyqyzu6.jpg

The top one is getting there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exoticballs

I dont believe in het high contrast. I know high contrast albinos come out randomly just like a high white and low white pied

---

I've never seen any evidence of it being random, more selectively bred, like nice pastels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exoticballs

Thats a pretty albino. She looks very bright

---

Thank you. She is very nice. If I had a newer camera (I used a 6 year old sony snap shot for this photo), I am sure she would pop more! I tried to get the best albino example I could fine for my projects. Primeval-Beauty was the best line that I could find:).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

Thank you. She is very nice. If I had a newer camera (I used a 6 year old sony snap shot for this photo), I am sure she would pop more! I tried to get the best albino example I could fine for my projects. Primeval-Beauty was the best line that I could find:).

---

My mistake, credit should go to Extraordinary Ectotherms.

No pictures of hatchlings side by side. But here is my high contrast albino. First is breeders hatchling pic. Second is my pic from last summer.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/16/e4ejyjym.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/16/beraganu.jpg

here is how i believed it to be, not so sure anymore:

some people try to get high contrast albinos via line-breeding, while others try to get high contrast by using codominants like cinnamon, black pastel, or enchi.

or does high contrast only refer to those that are line-bred for high contrast? as in, a cinnamon albino (even with high contrast) would always be considered a cinnamon albino and not be called high contrast?

but i think a "het high contrast albino" could be visual. albino takes away the black pigment that is between the alienheads, and leaves the yellow pigment that is inside the alienheads. so instead of yellow/brown alienheads on black background, you get yellow alienheads on white background.

so basically to make a high contrast albino, you would look for dark normals that have a darker, dirtier yellow/brown within the alienheads. when you now breed a high contrast albino to an average normal, i think it should show in some of the normal het albinos, in the form of a higher yellow-content inside the alienheads. basically the opposite of a fire or lesser, where the alienheads have a color that is closer to grey. loads of yellow pigment with some black / dark brown pigment mixed in should give you rich yellowish/reddish browns.

i think its marketing when someone sells "het high contrast albino". but i think if you look at lots of het albinos, and look for BPs that have a deep brown, specifically with a high yellow-content inside the alienheads, as far away from an axanthic look as possible, it might work. as in, you can pick out hets that have a high chance of producing high contrast albinos.

There is recent information that leans toward the gold blush as being a stand alone morph. A few years ago Matt Lerer / owner of GHI Reptiles bred one of his GHIs to a female gold blush mojave and the results were totally different than when the same GHI was bred to other mojaves. It looks like I'm getting close at isolating the gene trait, gold blush is now on the morph list.

As far as high contrast albinos go I believe there are several wild caught lines. One of which is Morton Write's line. Morton is a breeder that lives in Florida, many years ago he acquired a wild caught albino that he purchased from Africa. I never did see the original albino, but I did see the hundreds of babies that were produced from a selectively bred group. In my opinion the Morton Write line consistently produces some of the best looking super high contrast albinos around.

As stated before it's all about variation. Find out which two snakes produce the cleanest looking babies and breed the parents back to their children. Do this for a couple of generations then out cross them with snakes that share the same positive visual traits.

Brian Gundy
For Goodness Snakes
408-981-6694

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by For Goodness Snakes

There is recent information that leans toward the gold blush as being a stand alone morph. A few years ago Matt Lerer / owner of GHI Reptiles bred one of his GHIs to a female gold blush mojave and the results were totally different than when the same GHI was bred to other mojaves. It looks like I'm getting close at isolating the gene trait, gold blush is now on the morph list.

---

and lets not forget the patternless mystic potion (or was it a purple passion?) you produced, thats also an indication if its reproducible.

Quote:

---

As far as high contrast albinos go I believe there are several wild caught lines. One of which is Morton Write's line. Morton is a breeder that lives in Florida, many years ago he acquired a wild caught albino that he purchased from Africa. I never did see the original albino, but I did see the hundreds of babies that were produced from a selectively bred group. In my opinion the Morton Write line consistently produces some of the best looking super high contrast albinos around.

As stated before it's all about variation. Find out which two snakes produce the cleanest looking babies and breed the parents back to their children. Do this for a couple of generations then out cross them with snakes that share the same positive visual traits.

Brian Gundy
For Goodness Snakes
408-981-6694

---

thanks, thats really interesting. do you think the hets look different compared to other normals?

A high contrast albino is just a high contrast snake that happens to be an albino :P

Dark black bands = pure white albino bands, light brown "base" color = nicer yellow albino base.

Hope this helps!

Yes my hets show a lot of yellow on them, you'd think you were looking at a pastel.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by For Goodness Snakes

There is recent information that leans toward the gold blush as being a stand alone morph. A few years ago Matt Lerer / owner of GHI Reptiles bred one of his GHIs to a female gold blush mojave and the results were totally different than when the same GHI was bred to other mojaves. It looks like I'm getting close at isolating the gene trait, gold blush is now on the morph list.

As far as high contrast albinos go I believe there are several wild caught lines. One of which is Morton Write's line. Morton is a breeder that lives in Florida, many years ago he acquired a wild caught albino that he purchased from Africa. I never did see the original albino, but I did see the hundreds of babies that were produced from a selectively bred group. In my opinion the Morton Write line consistently produces some of the best looking super high contrast albinos around.

As stated before it's all about variation. Find out which two snakes produce the cleanest looking babies and breed the parents back to their children. Do this for a couple of generations then out cross them with snakes that share the same positive visual traits.

Brian Gundy
For Goodness Snakes
408-981-6694

---

Hey Brian!

Don't get me wrong, I am not taking anything away from the Gold Blush Mojo - I think selective breeding is imperative to improving different morphs and there is no denying that your line is incredible. From a standard viewpoint your animals set the bar. Sorry I used your specific project as an example, it was the first one that came to mind as I had just finished showing one of your videos (your 5000 gram ball python) to a friend of mine. I did see the results from the Ghi x Goldblush Mojave v.s. the Ghi x Mojo comparisons and I can only offer my opinion: Quality makes a huge difference.

But you see animals like the banana and the coral glow, NERD axanthic v.s. VPI axanthics, lesser v.s. butter and black pastel v.s. cinnamon (at risk of compromising my own argument LOL), calico v.s. sugar, and (for arguments sake) the mojave and the goldblush mojave, and many more examples... a lot of people can't help but feel confused, and have a difficult time explaining it to people when they ask me, "what makes these morphs different?" My honest answer is, "quality, and bred traits" and that raises questions about what standards exist for polymorph naming rights... Again, I don't care what people get credit for - I think people should be recognized for their contributions and years of work with an animal.

I don't mean any disrespect, and I am not an expert, nor am I someone of any real influence in the community, such as yourself. I am actually a bit of a fan (which is making my response here kind of awkward for me..) but I am simply offering my opinion which is; if the mutation acts in the same way (IMO) to it's counterpart - it's the same morph. Again just my lowly (and perhaps cynical) opinion.

Respectfully,
Chris.

Baby pics don't mean squat! Show me a 3500-4000g albino with intense color!

Chris,

In many ways I agree with you. Until Matt proved that there was something unique going on with his gold blush mojave I was happy just selectively breeding my snakes. Now that someone has placed the name gold blush onto the World Of Ball Python Morph List. I feel it is my responsibility to prove whether the trait is dominant, co dominant or recessive. As of yet I have not isolated the trait. It's difficult for me as a breeder to fully enjoy the experience. As honored as I am to see the words Gold Blush on the Morph list, It has brought a sense of frustration to me. I feel that in this case the cart has truly been put before the horse. I am hopeful that within the next few seasons I will have the trait isolated. Once that is done I will be able to take the gold blush which is not a mojave and incorporate that trait into all other morphs. I understand the confusion and frustration that this is causing. The frustration for me is how could the bp morph list include a trait that has not yet been isolated.

I'm excited about the future of this project, please be patient with me as I work it out.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by For Goodness Snakes

Chris,

In many ways I agree with you. Until Matt proved that there was something unique going on with his gold blush mojave I was happy just selectively breeding my snakes. Now that someone has placed the name gold blush onto the World Of Ball Python Morph List. I feel it is my responsibility to prove whether the trait is dominant, co dominant or recessive. As of yet I have not isolated the trait. It's difficult for me as a breeder to fully enjoy the experience. As honored as I am to see the words Gold Blush on the Morph list, It has brought a sense of frustration to me. I feel that in this case the cart has truly been put before the horse. I am hopeful that within the next few seasons I will have the trait isolated. Once that is done I will be able to take the gold blush which is not a mojave and incorporate that trait into all other morphs. I understand the confusion and frustration that this is causing. The frustration for me is how could the bp morph list include a trait that has not yet been isolated.

I'm excited about the future of this project, please be patient with me as I work it out.

Brian

---

Hey Brian!

I am very excited to see what the future holds for your animals. I've been watching for a while and am looking forward with great anticipation. I can't imagine the pressure that's on you now, and I thank you for not taking offence. I appreciate the time you have put into this discussion, and wish you the best of luck.

Cheers,
Chris.

wow, this thread is now really interesting and exciting.

the thing with WOBP is, i dont think they even try to be a watchdog. they act more like an aggregator of information. if you send them some nice pictures and some reasoning for why you think its a morph, they list it. and when there are issues, like evidence that several morphs are actually the same morph (lesser/butter, pastel/citrus pastel/lemon pastel/blonde pastel), they will just stay out of it and do nothing.

what i am waiting for is a prankster to get some morphs on WOBP that really dont exist.

listing a morph before its really pinned down and proven out, and failing to properly differentiate between single-gene base morphs and line bred traits, thats completely normal for WOBP. dont get me wrong, i like WOBP, because as an aggregator of information they do a REALLY GOOD JOB. they are just not in the business of verification. the problem is that often people dont get it, they assume that because its on WOBP, its real. that is like assuming something is real because it got published as a book.

that can be frustrating, i mean, apparently Brian Gundy is still in the process of figuring out the gold blush, and someone else just went ahead and got it listed on WOBP. dont sweat about it. gold blush mojave being listed on WOBP is like google returning search results when you search for "gold blush mojave".

in response to decensored, i have to say that i really think that in the end, gold blush will prove out to be a base morph and not a line-bred trait. the patternless gold blush mystic potion, and what it consistently does with mojave, and new things happening when other people combine it with other morphs like GHI, all that makes me feel really optimistic.

its really interesting to hear that you do see differences between a quality het high contrast albino and a normal, in the form of intensified yellow.

Even if gold blush is a separate morph in the sense that it is caused by a separate gene, it may be difficult to the point of nearly impossible to separate it from mojave. I don't know if it hasn't been done yet simply due to lack of trying, because it was assumed to be more of a selective breeding thing than a distinct gene. Or, if it hasn't been done yet because the two genes are difficult to separate. If they are on the same chromosome and at adjacent or nearly adjacent loci, most of the time a snake will either inherit both or neither, because they won't get separated very often.

I also don't know how the gold blush mojave originated. Is there any possibility that gold blush mojave isn't the mojave gene at all, but a different (just very similar) gene in the BEL complex?

Breed mojave x gold blush, make the super mojave and observe the offspring of that snake. If all mojave display the goldblush trait or not will give insight.

Breed gold blush x gold blush, make the super mojave, observe the offspring of that snake. If even one mojave does not display the goldblush trait will give some insight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kc261

I also don't know how the gold blush mojave originated. Is there any possibility that gold blush mojave isn't the mojave gene at all, but a different (just very similar) gene in the BEL complex?

---

Brian Gundy has to answer that, but he explained it to me earlier. basically he has a mojave project in which he tries to improve and refine the mojave gene, and in this mojave project the gold blush trait sort of just popped up, hatched out, and then kept appearing.

so we dont know for sure. maybe a random mutation happened, and maybe its a gene that is invisible or almost invisible in a normal, but that interacts strongly with other morphs, and became visible when it hit mojave. or maybe its a recessive that got flushed to the surface by inbreeding, but then, im leaning towards thinking that its dominant or codom, because i think the interaction Matt Lerer noticed with GHI happened in one generation, but i could be wrong about that.

im quite sure its not in the BEL gene complex itself, because the gold blush mystic potion exists. mystic and mojave are already in the BEL complex, and a BP only has two sets of chromosomes. it would be impossible, like a "lesser mojave phantom".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

im quite sure its not in the BEL gene complex itself, because the gold blush mystic potion exists. mystic and mojave are already in the BEL complex, and a BP only has two sets of chromosomes. it would be impossible, like a "lesser mojave phantom".

---

Oh, right.... I knew that.

I think it's important to remember that the actual gold blush looks like a normal, like a special or a yellow belly. Next season I'll be breeding my gold blush to a normal to see if I can produce more gold blushes then breed the gold blush back to the gold blush babies to produce a super or not then we'll know if it's a dominant or a co dominant, I'm assuming it's not a recessive trait.

Thanks for your ideas.

Brian