Discussion time - Boredom and "enrichment" in snakes

Personal anecdote up top, discussion on the bottom.

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Let me preface this by saying that our collection has some ridiculously strong personalities in it. Quite a few don't act like BPs at all.

I have bored snakes.

I know there's a very divisive debate on whether snakes feel emotion or whether we anthropomorphize them. I'm very strongly of the opinion that they have emotions, personalities, desires, etc. For those of you who disagree with me, I genuinely invite you to spend an hour with our collection, because you will change your mind. :P

We have a few BPs that follow the standard adage of "a happy ball is a hiding ball", but others... (and I'll refer to them by name because it's easier to follow) Prada snaps her tub lid when she's bored, Albert flips his water bowl, Houdini plays with his paper and waves at you to get your attention, Recon climbs the walls of his tank until he falls over (or if he just wants your attention he taps his hide until you give him said attention)... Penny, Jive, Bindi, and Vada are content to drape themselves across their tubs and watch you from across the room.

I know many people claim these are signs of stress or whatever, but we've determined these to be genuine attention seeking behaviors. If we take them out and handle them, let them explore, they settle down. Let me also clarify that these are noticeably different behaviors to their hunting behaviors.

I was joking around earlier that I should develop a line of snake toys based on the reasoning that if rodents, birds, and horses can all justify having toys, why can't reptiles, but this is a genuine thought to me. Does anyone have any sort of "toys" for their snakes?

I know for Recon (who is in half of a T8) we're still working on the design, but we will be installing a wooden lattice for him to climb and perch on - he has an identity crisis; he thinks he's a Green Tree Python. Genuinely - until we managed to permanently mount it, he could take his light down in under 2 minutes and would be perched on it 24/7, once going so far as to hunt, strike, wrap, and eat a small rat from it without ever touching the ground. The breeder we purchased him from didn't believe it to be possible until we showed him the video (he now understand what we mean when we say Recon is genuinely odd).

For Houdini, who I bought after he played peek-a-boo with me, I'm considering putting balls (potentially those plastic jingly cat toys that my cat refuses to play with) into his half of the T8; while he enjoys exploring and simply perching on your neck and shoulders while you go about your business, he seems to be seeking something to do whereas the others are more seeking attention.

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I'm genuinely curious to see what y'all's views on this are, and I'd like to start a true discussion of this topic. I feel as a community we're beginning to move away from the idea of snakes being instinct-only animals, and I know I'm not the only one to have extremely strong personalities in their collection.

Why are other non-mammals like birds (who are often also considered instinct-driven, though more trainable) considered to benefit from toys, but not reptiles?

The majority of us would consider our snakes to be intelligent (well, with the exception of Recon up there...), so why do we (the community as a whole) accept the idea that they're content to do nothing 99% of the time? Wouldn't they benefit from the intellectual stimulation alone?

I've worked with all types of animals for the majority of my life, and I've always been very firm in my belief that all animals are as complex as we are, we just haven't necessarily figured out how to interpret them yet. We know of mammals capable of higher thought (gorillas, dolphins, elephants), and we know of mammals at least capable of forming complex bonds with humans (cats, dogs, horses) if not complex thoughts and actions, so why do we inherently assume mammals are the only animals capable of these things? I would argue that it's because we can interpret the body language of mammals better than of birds or reptiles on a subconscious level, and this prejudices us. We know that humans are prejudiced against snakes to begin with - it's a subconscious learned behavior in our evolution, which is also why so many people claim to be afraid of snakes until they actually meet one.

Discuss, rebut, etc. - rather than just say they are, tell me why do you believe your snakes are instinct-driven? Why won't they benefit from enrichment? Have you noticed similar trends in your collection?

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Originally Posted by JellyFish72

Why are other non-mammals like birds (who are often also considered instinct-driven, though more trainable) considered to benefit from toys, but not reptiles?

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Because birds are among some of the most intelligent land animal (some bird species more than others).

I don't know about this. If we look at their behaviour in the wild, I think this says it all. They spend the majority of their lives in a burrow - not seeking enrichment. Perhaps when we take them out of their natural habitats (even if they're captive bred - instinct is instinct) they tend to stray around their tanks more. I don't know, but you cannot compare birds to snakes in terms of intelligence.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Because birds are among some of the most intelligent land animal (some bird species more than others).

I don't know about this. If we look at their behaviour in the wild, I think this says it all. They spend the majority of their lives in a burrow - not seeking enrichment. Perhaps when we take them out of their natural habitats (even if they're captive bred - instinct is instinct) they tend to stray around their tanks more. I don't know, but you cannot compare birds to snakes in terms of intelligence.

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Well this is all true, Intelligence cant be used to loosely if you ask me, Sure instinct is instinct, and a bird can talk chatter and play with others, BUT They are intelligent in there own right, and have clearly shown this by being an insanely long living animal who havnt been taken off the face of the earth like many other species, aswell as the crocodile/alligator. Sure they thrive by instinct but does this mean they are stupid or dumb, When being one of the alpha predators in the wild?

Im sure i could very well be wrong about it all, but there instinctive intelligence is enough to make me think they are smart, know good from bad, and know danger from safe.

The reason enrichment is so seldom considered for species such as ball pythons is because of the understanding of their most basic needs - these are animals that have evolved to sit in one spot, waiting, until food walks by. Their fundamental make up is to use as little energy as possible until food comes by, or until they feel ready for breeding.

Yes, there will be subtle differences in behavior and personality; that can be explained, rather easily, by the inherent minute differences in genetic makeup that go into a species so commonly bred in captivity. Differences in behavior in a species, while not the cookie-cutter identical norm, are actually completely expected and not at all surprising - that's where evolutionary adaptation gets its root.

I believe enrichment for ball pythons could and should involve things like larger enclosures with varied hiding places, multiple options for heat, and even a day/night cycle with color-balanced lights. Toys, though, at least for ball pythons - I think that's a bit overkill, and perhaps reading too far into certain behaviors.

There are more active, diurnal hunters, such as kingsnakes or the pituophis genus, which could and do benefit greatly from increased cage space and enrichment in the form of being taken out, given climbing opportunities, and new things to investigate. They spend their days in the wild investigating everything they come across to see if there is food; as such, they're a snake species I think would benefit from more active interaction. They can and do still thrive in a simpler rack setup, but they do also respond extremely well to cage enrichment.

There ARE reptiles that thrive with more mammalian styles of enrichment, such as food puzzles, and those are monitors, tegus, and similar large, predatory lizards. Again, though, when you consider what they do...they actively hunt, they don't just sit and wait.

Ball pythons are excellent beginner snakes, and exceptionally fun for keepers who love them, but it still seems to me like your snakes are exhibiting behaviors indicative of seeking different conditions, not necessarily human attention.

-Jen

Jen Pretty much said what I was thinking, I think that the idea of "toys" for snakes is a little off, but I do agree with providing larger than the "norm" cages for them and climbing opportunities, I like them to have the option of roaming and exploring. However I do fully believe in providing enrichment for my lizards. Both my Blueys and even my baby tegu play with the little "cat balls" and the "treat" balls ( I do not leave them in the cage alone), they really do seem to seek attention. When the blueys want attention they will actually come out of their hide and paw at the glass until I open the door. I am always adding to their cages, rearranging ( I keep their hides constant) taking them out and letting them roam, etc. The tegu reminds me of a cat. I can be cleaning the cage and it will walk up and rub against my hand, if I start to rub my finger on its back it will stretch out and push against me, but as soon as shes done, she tail whips me and takes off.

Oh I love this thread I hope it triggers a lot of discussion! I've felt & had the same exact thoughts as you have but I've gone a lot deeper into it because there are just a ton of questions and things I don't like about how we view reptiles. So much so that I couldn't even post it all in this thread. It would take me Forever to type it all out. But I'd love to come & visit your collection :) I have 3 snakes and they all have very different but strong personalities. Especially my newest girl Sheik. There's something very strange and fascinating about her because she's so different from my two boys. I know you to discuss publicly but I'd love to message you personally and run some things by you :) I just don't want to start an argument on your thread with my unpolished thoughts on the matter. And plus it would be nice to talk one on one with someone who is thinking on the same wavelength as you since most people already have what they think set in their heads because of the "facts" so your probably going to get a lot of the same answers just said in many different ways.


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I think snakes have some ability to "learn". My BP comes out of his hide as soon as I unlock his tank and waits. If I stoke his back he will flick his tounge and let me pick him up with no flinching. If I do not do that he starts looking for food to be dangled. And he is puppy dog tame now and I think he "likes" to come out for my warmth, to strech out and explore. I do not think they are smart in the sense of birds or mammals, but can learn to tolerate different things and learn where things in their enclosures are.


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Originally Posted by CORBIN911

Well this is all true, Intelligence cant be used to loosely if you ask me, Sure instinct is instinct, and a bird can talk chatter and play with others, BUT They are intelligent in there own right, and have clearly shown this by being an insanely long living animal who havnt been taken off the face of the earth like many other species, aswell as the crocodile/alligator. Sure they thrive by instinct but does this mean they are stupid or dumb, When being one of the alpha predators in the wild?

Im sure i could very well be wrong about it all, but there instinctive intelligence is enough to make me think they are smart, know good from bad, and know danger from safe.

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Birds are also SOCIAL, and their enrichment is, depending on species STILL to mimic things they do in the wild. Tearing up trees, foraging for their food, and social interaction in either the form of humans or other birds. This applies to cats, dogs, and other animals just as much, in what we give them the opportunity to do with us and how we provide enrichment/training/play. Dogs? We play with them. We capitalize on all that breeding we have done to make them social, crave human attention or to do specific jobs and channel it somewhere else. Even housebreaking is capitalizing on a natural behavior - to keep their dens clean. Cats? Litterbox training? Natural behavior to bury waste. Play? They hunt. In our homes they may hunt feathers on sticks, but it's the same sort of thing. Even hamsters - wheels for exercise, things to chew. Rats and mice? Social structure/company, climbing, foraging, maybe running.

I love my snakes. I love my snakes a LOT. But what do BP in the wild? They meet each other to mate, they eat, and they stay in solitary burrows under ground. The 'enrichment' we provide them is STILL in mimicking that. They eat, they may or may not breed, and they're given clean cages and hides. We take them out and let them move around. That's... Literally the only behavior the wild animals exhibit. There is nothing more to capitalize on, as far as enrichment goes. Wiggle a dead rodent or provide a live on, give them somewhere to hide, let them move around sometimes, provide a water bowl they can soak in if they want and substrate they can burrow in if they want. . I'm not sure what else you're even looking for. BP don't climb, they don't actively hunt (they ambush), they do not live in groups.

What sort of behavior or activity is it they engage in, in the wild, that they do not experience or have the opportunity to exercise in captivity? Because that's what enrichment *is*.

(Please note, I'm talking BP only here in saying that 'enrichment' opportunities are basically just being kept with good husbandry - rather than toys. Other reptiles, not so much, not even other snakes. But BP are what they are, and that's not a king snake, a tegu, an iguana, or a turtle. It's certainly not a bird or a mammal.)

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Originally Posted by CptJack

I love my snakes. I love my snakes a LOT. But what do BP in the wild? They meet each other to mate, they eat, and they stay in solitary burrows under ground. The 'enrichment' we provide them is STILL in mimicking that. They eat, they may or may not breed, and they're given clean cages and hides. We take them out and let them move around. That's... Literally the only behavior the wild animals exhibit. There is nothing more to capitalize on, as far as enrichment goes. Wiggle a dead rodent or provide a live on, give them somewhere to hide, let them move around sometimes. I'm not sure what else you're even looking for. BP don't climb, they don't actively hunt (they ambush), they do not live in groups.

What is it you would be providing via providing an outlet for instinct or behavior in the wild they do not exhibit in captivity?

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Bold'd part sounds like the average teenager now :taz:

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Originally Posted by CORBIN911

Bold'd part sounds like the average teenager now :taz:

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Man, I've got teenagers. Add in 'endless hours of video games and hostility when disturbed' and you've nailed it.

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Originally Posted by CptJack

Man, I've got teenagers. Add in 'endless hours of video games and hostility when disturbed' and you've nailed it.

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Hahaha Hey man sometimes i game endlessly when snakes are clean and nothing else to do and nones home!!!!

somehow i dont think they just hide all the time and sit around to ambush rhodents.

there is this ball python temple in Benin that a few hundred ball pythons use as a hiding place during the day. and each night they all move out, all of them leave the temple behind and go hunting in the surrounding areas. in the morning they all return. farmers that have ball pythons on their farm say the same thing, they have their hiding place for the day, but at night they are all on the move. some BP breeding farms operate the same way, the pythons need to get their own rhodents, all that the humans do is to provide the right hiding place at the right location and to seperate out and lock up the gravid females for egg laying.

so i dont think they are as sluggish as some of these posts characterize them. they have a hiding place for the day and a hunting area for the night, and they move quite a distance each night, and some exploration has to be involved because they are not born with a hiding place and a hunting ground, they need to figure it out and find the right places.

i dont think they are interested in toys or anything like that, but im sure that when you give a BP more room to roam around it will be appreciated and used by the BP.

Ball pythons don't go hunting every night.

They go and hunt when they get hungry, and then do nothing till they are hungry again.

Through the advancement of people we find the solution to the question posed here.

We started off as hunter/gatherers and we as people fulfilled the three basic human needs ; nourishment, clothing, shelter. It was not until we began to domesticate things ( plants and animals ) for our benefit that we had more time and energy to focus on non instinctual things such as a complex language system, knowledge, social structure and the like. This is how we evolved into what we are today. Snakes in the wild do not receive food on a consistent basis, in captivity where the next meal is guaranteed perhaps the conservation of energy is no longer important and they can (as nature suggests) afford to use energy on things other than their basic needs. Perhaps what you are seeing is the first step of many to come for ball pythons, they could eventually become as domesticated as dogs or cats. Science once proved monitor lizards and big reptiles to be non thinking creatures, now we have a crocodile that can swim with a man in Colombia and science explaining that monitor lizards could be the most intelligent reptile. Everything changes and as generations of python evolve adapting to their new environment (captivity) they could be focusing their energy on less instinctual things.


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Originally Posted by Recreation

Through the advancement of people we find the solution to the question posed here.

We started off as hunter/gatherers and we as people fulfilled the three basic human needs ; nourishment, clothing, shelter. It was not until we began to domesticate things ( plants and animals ) for our benefit that we had more time and energy to focus on non instinctual things such as a complex language system, knowledge, social structure and the like. This is how we evolved into what we are today. Snakes in the wild do not receive food on a consistent basis, in captivity where the next meal is guaranteed perhaps the conservation of energy is no longer important and they can (as nature suggests) afford to use energy on things other than their basic needs. Perhaps what you are seeing is the first step of many to come for ball pythons, they could eventually become as domesticated as dogs or cats. Science once proved monitor lizards and big reptiles to be non thinking creatures, now we have a crocodile that can swim with a man in Colombia and science explaining that monitor lizards could be the most intelligent reptile. Everything changes and as generations of python evolve adapting to their new environment (captivity) they could be focusing their energy on less instinctual things.

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Evolution doesnt work that way, and not so fast. the problem is that you have no natural selection going on in captivity (apart from the occasional BP with a weak immune system dieing from RI or something). its all artificial selection. and breeders select mainly for optics, clutch size/fertility, feeding response and to a lesser degree for a tame character. unless breeders start working hard on producing more intelligent BPs, its not going to happen. and in nature, evolution by natural selection works over tens of thousands of years, you do not get the changes you suggest in 50 years or 100 years, as you seem to imply with the crocodile example.

BPs wont evolve the ability to herd rats and to cook them before eating anytime soon. what can be done with artificial selection rather quickly is to get them tame. getting them smarter is a whole different beast.

You are specifically referring to natural selection, which commonly refers to physical traits. But that is in fact how we as human beings progressed as a species and it was not a physical trait that lead us to develop a complex language system. I am simply implying that the same transformation that humans experienced can happen with ball pythons ( or any species for that matter ). And that what was being viewed now is simply a precursor for what is to come.


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Originally Posted by Recreation

You are specifically referring to natural selection, which commonly refers to physical traits. But that is in fact how we as human beings progressed as a species and it was not a physical trait that lead us to develop a complex language system. I am simply implying that the same transformation that humans experienced can happen with ball pythons ( or any species for that matter ). And that what was being viewed now is simply a precursor for what is to come.

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sure, in 100000 years a lot can happen.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

sure, in 100000 years a lot can happen.

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It won't take 10,000 years for changes to be made in the species.

But because of what we're selecting for in captivity? Those changes aren't likely to make a more independent, active, advanced creature. More pretty morphs, better appetites, possibly bigger sizes and tolerance to temperature and humidity variations, yes. A ball python that needs an hour outside its enclosure every day and plays with toys? Yeaaaaah, no.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

somehow i dont think they just hide all the time and sit around to ambush rhodents.

there is this ball python temple in Benin that a few hundred ball pythons use as a hiding place during the day. and each night they all move out, all of them leave the temple behind and go hunting in the surrounding areas. in the morning they all return. farmers that have ball pythons on their farm say the same thing, they have their hiding place for the day, but at night they are all on the move. some BP breeding farms operate the same way, the pythons need to get their own rhodents, all that the humans do is to provide the right hiding place at the right location and to seperate out and lock up the gravid females for egg laying.

so i dont think they are as sluggish as some of these posts characterize them. they have a hiding place for the day and a hunting area for the night, and they move quite a distance each night, and some exploration has to be involved because they are not born with a hiding place and a hunting ground, they need to figure it out and find the right places.

i dont think they are interested in toys or anything like that, but im sure that when you give a BP more room to roam around it will be appreciated and used by the BP.

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Ball pythons are hunters. They climb trees and hunt birds. They hunt on the ground. We ignore science in favor of Youtube clips of people cutting eggs and caresheets outlining what suits OUR needs in terms of husbandry. Then we spread our "Ball Pythons for Dummies" knowledge like a plague.

What you stated in your quote is apostasy. Ball pythons are fragile things that require exact temperature ranges, an exact humidity range and a snug fitting hide. They should not ingest anything but rodent prey fed f/t on a lace doily. Do not give them branches or they will hurt themselves.

The idea that nature created a creature that can survive changes in temperature, changes in humidity, the ingestion of dirt and plant material and eat a somewhat varied diet is inconceivable. The idea that these creatures can tolerate each other given room is laughable. We have espoused a doctrine of husbandry based on what is convenient and economical for us. Anything that is exists outside of what we deem convenient is frowned upon.

Enrichment is a human ideal. If you want to create a habitat for a ball python that allows it to hide, hunt and explore - by all means ignore the forum dogma and do so. You may feel that you are doing the snake a favor. If the snake thrives, then maybe you are.

I can keep a russian tortoise in a large aquarium/tortoise table with the correct heat lamp and feed it the right greens every day.

Or I can keep it in a 8'x16' planted enclosure in the back yard.

In both instances, I am meeting it's needs. In the former, I'm meeting them in a manner convenient to me.

In the latter, I'm meeting them better.

Oh Skip what would we do without you :) I agree with you 10000000%.


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I think too much of this this "hobby" is all about what is convenient for us (humans). What's the cheapest way to keep many ball pythons? Racks. I have 3 ball pythons now. I want more. Most of us want more. So what's the most cost effective way for me to house ball pythons? Racks. Can you keep a BP alive and eating in a rack - yes. At the end of the day though, my gut tells me the use of racks are rationalized by those that find them convenient for their own purposes.

The reptile world is being industrialized. We've done it with other animals we've wanted to breed for capital gain, and now its the reptiles turn (at least those reptiles that can survive in a tight enclosure).

I do believe that there is a lot of grey area here though. There may be someone out there with a rack that uses huge tubs and provides an enclosure with limbs etc, and so it could be described as better than a well decorated AP T8. I thought about this angle myself. Using those Christmas Tree tubs to house my snakes, so I could have the convenience of a rack system, while still feeling like I was providing the BP's enough space to explore and move around.

My take on all of this is - the minute we take an animal from the wild - we need to do our best to give that animal an honest life. Animals are voiceless. They can't tell us if their tubs suck. We can read body language and try to interpret signs, but at the end of the day we are the ones running their lives.

I think about all this stuff a lot. I want my BP's to live a good life. I've come very close to getting a rack so I can add 3 or 4 more BP's in a way that fits my budget. But at the end of the day, it wouldn't be right, I'd regret it if I did. I like having time to spend with reptiles. And honestly with 3 BP's, 2 Leos, 1 Crested, and a corn snake, I don't think I could add more than one or two animals and still have time to make sure everyone was doing well. Checking their enclosures and making sure everyone has fresh water, and a clean habitat is time consuming. But I like doing that. A rack would make it easier to do, but again I think the animals would be coming second to my needs.

By not getting a rack, I'm keeping myself in check. It puts limits around how many BP's I can get, because of space and money. For some with deep pockets this wouldn't limit them, but I am thankful for that limitation - it keeps me from exploiting the animals for my own enjoyment.

I think with Ball pythons you are seeing what happened to the wolf converting to the domestic dog.

We pulled from the wild the most mild, easiest to find, and honestly, the ones with the most genetic defects, aka morphs.

The domestic dog started very similar. Ancient man domesticated wolves that had been cut off from the pack and survived off the trash of men. They followed man and learned what it took to be accepted by men. In turn men only excepted the most docile and trainable wolf and made a dog.

Now granted Wolf and reptiles are not the same. Reptiles have much smaller brains and even smaller diversity in brain function. A mamals brain is rather large because it has to run so many different things, running of dense bone structure, balance, maintaining a body temperature; which that alone in turn requires more food, more food requires multiple methods to find food. Our warm blooded bodies force us to have problem solving skills by finding/hunting food all day.

Now snakes being taken from natural habitat and handled by a predator all day long, will naturally find ways to encourage non-hostile behavior. That is the first steps of domestication. Domestication does not take 10K years. But in a few years snakes can go from snappy to docile to ensure survival.

Don't believe me? Very intelligent mammals, we will call them humans, throughout their history have gone from 10 generations of Warriors to being defeated (say by the romans) to being docile slaves for a 1000 years.

The personality you see in snakes is the snakes reaction to you and adapting to what it perceives insures its survival.

*2 cents*

I studied human evolution in University and this thread it hurting me.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

I studied human evolution in University and this thread it hurting me.

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I didn't study evolution and it's making me cramp up pretty bad.

the most recent change that took place in humans that i know about took 7000 years. and so far it spread to just 30% of the human population.

its lactose tolerance, the ability for adults to digest milk. 70% of humans can only digest lactose as children, and lose that abilty somewhere around age 5 to 8, and are then lactose intolerant. and after the clearly beneficial mutation of being lactose tolerant popped up 7000 years ago somewhere in central europe, it only reached 30% of the human population so far.

a nice video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZbhf96W9k

and thats the ONLY real evolutionary trait that changed in humans in the last 10000 years that i know about. are there others? i dont know.

but i surely do know that humans dont "evolve" from being "good warriors" to being "good slaves" within a lifetime. thats just ridiculous. thats not evolution, thats not how it works. (EDIT: i think that has more to do with whips and metal chains and the occasional crucifiction)

domesticating an animal is sped up by artificial selection, but it STILL requires THOUSANDS of years to get the job done, and relies heavily on the natural genetic diversity that the species brings to the table.

oh, and most wild BPs are really docile when you handle them right. its definitely not something we did to them in the few generations of captive breeding.

Stop. It hurts. That's all I can say.:please:

My point is not evolutionary, its domestication. That's what you are seeing. Evolution is different all together.

The difference is today with information we are overloaded with information from so many different places we read too much into small things.

We are at what, 30-40 years of snakes being bred in captivity?

Snakes that have instincts but never have hidden in a rodent burrow, nor did their parents + 20.

Adaptation to the environment and our desire to have them be affectionate results in us seeing what we want. That's my main point.

a mass breeder I dare to say doesn't see personality in all their snakes. A hobbiest that spends hours a day with them sees this because as humans we search for validation. So ANY act that is not burrowing or hiding or doing any one thing to get food, as humans we read into it as something it more than likely is not.

Now don't confuse this with evolution at all. Ball pythons, the longer they are in captivity will stray further and further away from their wild counter-parts (my wolf/dog reference). The growth of "my snake loves me" comments will increase because of new odd behavior.

A snake can adapt its lifestyle in its lifetime, it does not require 10000 years to do so.

That was my point.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Stop. It hurts. That's all I can say.:please:

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could you elaborate?

I agree with you. Reptiles are intelligent creatures, too. And not just lizards--snakes, as well. And I think you're right when you mentioned that maybe it's because we can't always interpret their body language as well as other animals, like cats or horses. Or even lizards.
So many owners say they're content to just sit in a small, sterile tub (which has nothing to do with their natural environment), with a water dish, and maybe two hides. It's ridiculous. Sure, they'll survive. That covers their basic needs. But their psychological health will suffer.
I recently read an article published by herpetologists that no, ball pythons do not just burrow in some hole and "wait for their food to come." They know they need to search for food. And they love climbing trees. They're semi-arboreal, a fact proven by scientists that few owners know.
And to those owners who say their herps do well in plastic tubs with nothing to do all day BUT sit in their hides waiting for food, explain to me just why they are finicky eaters. In the past year of having my ball python, she has never ONCE passed up food. I don't have the greatest setup for her yet (I'm going bioactive this weekend, finally), but she's not in a tub, with artificial hides. Yet any owner who has plastic tubs will say ball pythons are finicky eaters. Any owner with a naturalistic setup or bioactive one will likely say theirs eat 99% of the time.
Bioactive environments are one way to add enrichment. It's completely natural, so it reminds them of home.
Another rather necessary "enrichment" item should be a branch. Again, they're semi-arboreal.
I really like the idea of building the ends of branches into a wooden enclosure, so that if the snake climbs the walls, he can go through all the branch ends. I can't find it on Google again.
It'd be neat to see what one would do with cat toys lol.
I'd say that they're creatures, they need a life. They're alive--they aren't just inanimate objects designed for display. They have thoughts, emotions, personalities, and intellect. Thus, they need something other than a tub, with two hides (if they're lucky) and a water bowl. That's not a life. That's a life dimmed down for our entertainment. But that's not what they were designed for, was it? They need some form of enrichment, and we as responsible owners need to provide it. Otherwise, it should be illegal.

Dude, this thread is four years old. Necropost much?

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Originally Posted by JeanTownsend

I agree with you. Reptiles are intelligent creatures, too. And not just lizards--snakes, as well. And I think you're right when you mentioned that maybe it's because we can't always interpret their body language as well as other animals, like cats or horses. Or even lizards.
So many owners say they're content to just sit in a small, sterile tub (which has nothing to do with their natural environment), with a water dish, and maybe two hides. It's ridiculous. Sure, they'll survive. That covers their basic needs. But their psychological health will suffer.
I recently read an article published by herpetologists that no, ball pythons do not just burrow in some hole and "wait for their food to come." They know they need to search for food. And they love climbing trees. They're semi-arboreal, a fact proven by scientists that few owners know.
And to those owners who say their herps do well in plastic tubs with nothing to do all day BUT sit in their hides waiting for food, explain to me just why they are finicky eaters. In the past year of having my ball python, she has never ONCE passed up food. I don't have the greatest setup for her yet (I'm going bioactive this weekend, finally), but she's not in a tub, with artificial hides. Yet any owner who has plastic tubs will say ball pythons are finicky eaters. Any owner with a naturalistic setup or bioactive one will likely say theirs eat 99% of the time.
Bioactive environments are one way to add enrichment. It's completely natural, so it reminds them of home.
Another rather necessary "enrichment" item should be a branch. Again, they're semi-arboreal.
I really like the idea of building the ends of branches into a wooden enclosure, so that if the snake climbs the walls, he can go through all the branch ends. I can't find it on Google again.
It'd be neat to see what one would do with cat toys lol.
I'd say that they're creatures, they need a life. They're alive--they aren't just inanimate objects designed for display. They have thoughts, emotions, personalities, and intellect. Thus, they need something other than a tub, with two hides (if they're lucky) and a water bowl. That's not a life. That's a life dimmed down for our entertainment. But that's not what they were designed for, was it? They need some form of enrichment, and we as responsible owners need to provide it. Otherwise, it should be illegal.

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Excellent post - we share the exact same views , it seems .

Marry me !!

Wait .... Better run that past the wife , first :)


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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

somehow i dont think they just hide all the time and sit around to ambush rhodents.

there is this ball python temple in Benin that a few hundred ball pythons use as a hiding place during the day. and each night they all move out, all of them leave the temple behind and go hunting in the surrounding areas. in the morning they all return. farmers that have ball pythons on their farm say the same thing, they have their hiding place for the day, but at night they are all on the move. some BP breeding farms operate the same way, the pythons need to get their own rhodents, all that the humans do is to provide the right hiding place at the right location and to seperate out and lock up the gravid females for egg laying.

so i dont think they are as sluggish as some of these posts characterize them. they have a hiding place for the day and a hunting area for the night, and they move quite a distance each night, and some exploration has to be involved because they are not born with a hiding place and a hunting ground, they need to figure it out and find the right places.

i dont think they are interested in toys or anything like that, but im sure that when you give a BP more room to roam around it will be appreciated and used by the BP.

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Very interesting .


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I absolutely believe that snakes have personality. Each of my little ones are very unique in their own ways and I love to see it but in my experience all of these enrichment items and all that didn’t do anything for them.

I used to keep my guys in larger enclosures with branches and things to climb on and all that fun stuff and they never used them once lol. Sure at night my guy Meeko would sometimes poke his head out to get a drink and look around a little but that’s it and I didn’t see Azura at all until it was time to feed lol

I know some will say just give them the space and they will use it and even if not it doesn’t hurt, but in the case of my girl Azura she has thrives so much better in a rack system. I had lots of clutter (so many plants you could barely see in there XD) and all temps and humidity were correct but she still was very very shy in and out of the enclosure and would frequently skip meals. After switching to a rack it’s like she bloomed! She has quickly become one of my bolder snakes and always pokes her head out to say hello when I open up her tub lol.

Now am I saying all snakes are like mine? No of course not! If your snake loves the room then by all means keep doing what you’re doing but exceptions don’t make the rule lol

I give my guys hides still and some fake plants as well and they have plenty of room to stretch out and move around if they wanted to, but as for enrichment items or toys or something I don’t because I know they won’t use. Yes I recognize and love their personality and don’t see them as some unfeeling creature but I also understand them and know what they need and what they just don’t care about


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Originally Posted by BluuWolf

I absolutely believe that snakes have personality. Each of my little ones are very unique in their own ways and I love to see it but in my experience all of these enrichment items and all that didn’t do anything for them.

I used to keep my guys in larger enclosures with branches and things to climb on and all that fun stuff and they never used them once lol. Sure at night my guy Meeko would sometimes poke his head out to get a drink and look around a little but that’s it and I didn’t see Azura at all until it was time to feed lol

I know some will say just give them the space and they will use it and even if not it doesn’t hurt, but in the case of my girl Azura she has thrives so much better in a rack system. I had lots of clutter (so many plants you could barely see in there XD) and all temps and humidity were correct but she still was very very shy in and out of the enclosure and would frequently skip meals. After switching to a rack it’s like she bloomed! She has quickly become one of my bolder snakes and always pokes her head out to say hello when I open up her tub lol.

Now am I saying all snakes are like mine? No of course not! If your snake loves the room then by all means keep doing what you’re doing but exceptions don’t make the rule lol

I give my guys hides still and some fake plants as well and they have plenty of room to stretch out and move around if they wanted to, but as for enrichment items or toys or something I don’t because I know they won’t use. Yes I recognize and love their personality and don’t see them as some unfeeling creature but I also understand them and know what they need and what they just don’t care about


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I'd say that adding snake 'toys' is just taking things too far and quite simply just daft .

My Pythons and Boas all have branches and use them in the evenings- especially the Royals !

Kings and Corn don't seem as interested though .

Snakes are all so different maybe that's why we love them :)


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'd say that adding snake 'toys' is just taking things too far and quite simply just daft .

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What are you talking about? I have squeaky toys and those little hamster wheels for mine and they love them! What's so daft about playing dress up with my snakes and teaching them fetch?

Joking aside, I put a new humidity probe in my BP's cage and he has spent the past week thumping it against the wall like a kid with a new soccer ball so who knows about them toys huh?

If the enrichment doesn't add any extra stress (which may be hard to measure) I have no issues with it and happy to see people providing larger enclosures and offering more options for the snakes to explore and do snake things either in or out of the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by JeanTownsend

And to those owners who say their herps do well in plastic tubs with nothing to do all day BUT sit in their hides waiting for food, explain to me just why they are finicky eaters. In the past year of having my ball python, she has never ONCE passed up food. I don't have the greatest setup for her yet (I'm going bioactive this weekend, finally), but she's not in a tub, with artificial hides. Yet any owner who has plastic tubs will say ball pythons are finicky eaters. Any owner with a naturalistic setup or bioactive one will likely say theirs eat 99% of the time.

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Mine basically 'sit in their hides waiting for food' in tubs but they also eat fine and are not finicky. I know lots of others in the same boat, I think your generalization was painted with a bit of a broad stroke.