Everyone is a breeder.

I just wanted to pose a question for conversation, (maybe should have been put in the 'breeding' section), but why do SO many people breed BP's? I understand the love of snakes, I understand the creativity in breeding different colors, but I still can't comprehend why 1/4 BP owners seems to be a breeder. Can you imagine if 1 in every 4 cat owners were a breeder? Is it the money they're after? The respect? I guess I don't get it. I mean no confrontation by this question, so please no-one get offended or butthurt. I just want educated on why so many BP owners want to be breeders. Very few Colubrid or Boa owners seem to want to become breeders. Reptile shows are now nothing but Ball Python shows because of this. Isn't this kind of self-destructive, to flood the market?

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this question by some, so bring it on I guess. Just keep it a mature discussion, because I really am curious.

I can not speak for everyone but I can say I love ball pythons. They are not too big and not too small. Some snakes are long and slender but some like the balls are just right. Most are docile and the number of combinations is incredible. Since their are show many different combinations and people have so many different styles they do seem very popular these days; so the market is just filling the demand. Buy one and see what happens! :) I bought one and now own six. Kinda addictive.

I already own one, so I understand how they are. I'm asking why the obsession to breed them?

Hatch out a clutch of eggs, that feeling is why. Creating new things and hatching out baby snakes is one of the few things I live for. Reptiles truly are a passion, and breeding is part of it. I compare it to riding motorcycles: why do so many riders become racers? Because the feeling of winning a race (or waking up to a tub of baby snakes) cannot be replicated. Sorry I didn't really answer your question :oops:

I'm not a breeder, at least not yet ;), but we just got our first ball last weekend. And I love her so much that I have looked into breeding. Not necessarily to become a breeder, but I just think being able to witness the whole process would be incredible. But away from the snake world, my job deals with human birth so maybe I'm just a little too obsessed with new babies :P

I lean towards your insight being skewed because you're on THE website for BP husbandry. I'd be shocked to find that even remotely close to 1/4 people who walk away from the pet store with a BP have any intention of ever breeding their new pet.

My insight on excessive breeding is not skewed. The 1/4 statement was in sarcasm, not scientific facts. Out of all the snake breeders that I have liked on my snake lovers Facebook page (400+), all the breeders at reptile shows, all the breeders promoting online (Facebook, Craigslist, forums, and all the people promoting on Youtube), all the new owners talking about how they are going to breed, and 90% of it is for Ball Pythons; it has nothing to do with how many people on this site do it. We can include all the breeders on here too, if you would like. That's why I'm asking on here, BECAUSE it's the biggest forum for BP owners that I know of, therefor, it's a better chance to get some good answers, from a few different points of view.

The money................................. that I don't have;)

I started by buying what I need to make what I want because I have other responsibilities for my funds.
There are a couple multigenes I want so I have to make them AND then there is a super long term project that I got an idea for because I have never seen one.

I have loved snakes since I was 4. Anything to do with them is just exciting to me. The fact that I can now breed them, see the whole process that normally we would never be privilege too, short of field work, is awesome. The myriad of combinations is just an added bonus.

I am breeding to make snakes I want. There are multi gene animals I love, but are out of my budget right now. And, I prefer to make my own. That way I pick the quality stock that produces them. And, it's super exciting, and those dang babies are cute as heck!


I think people don't breed say boas as much, because you wind up with 40 something babies, and larger snakes are probably harder to find homes for. You could have 120 boas babies in a season from 3 females, or 18 ball pythons from 3 females.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

My insight on excessive breeding is not skewed. The 1/4 statement was in sarcasm, not scientific facts. Out of all the snake breeders that I have liked on my snake lovers Facebook page (400+), all the breeders at reptile shows, all the breeders promoting online (Facebook, Craigslist, forums, and all the people promoting on Youtube), all the new owners talking about how they are going to breed, and 90% of it is for Ball Pythons; it has nothing to do with how many people on this site do it. We can include all the breeders on here too, if you would like. That's why I'm asking on here, BECAUSE it's the biggest forum for BP owners that I know of, therefor, it's a better chance to get some good answers, from a few different points of view.

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That's exactly my point. You're looking in all of the places where people who are interested in breeding gather in large numbers and concluding that most people who own a BP have intentions of breeding. I agree that BPs are one of the most popular snakes to breed right now, but I still feel your insights are skewed because you have "caught the BP bug" and are surrounding yourself with people of similar interests. After all, it's why the rest of us are here. :)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

That's exactly my point. You're looking in all of the places where people who are interested in breeding gather in large numbers and concluding that most people who own a BP have intentions of breeding. I agree that BPs are one of the most popular snakes to breed right now, but I still feel your insights are skewed because you have "caught the BP bug" and are surrounding yourself with people of similar interests. After all, it's why the rest of us are here. :)

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Go back 10 years ago. BP's did NOT have this following with breeders back then :) But then again, neither did reptiles as a whole.

I actually don't have the BP bug, though. I got one to rehome it, knowing that I don't really care for BP's. I did it for the snake, not me. I prefer Colubrids and Boas, which is why I don't see so many owners being breeders at the same time from those. I came here to hopefully figure out why everyone loves them so much, but to no avail. I do agree, to surrounding myself with people of similar interests. I enjoy talking to everyone on here, even if it's about a snake I don't really love all that much.

And thank you to everyone for the mature discussion on this thread. Most other snake sites would have prompted 'SCREW YOU, YOU BALL HATER! GO DIE'. I appreciate everyone's insights and views :)

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

Go back 10 years ago. BP's did NOT have this following with breeders back then :) But then again, neither did reptiles as a whole.

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Digging deep in the BP history books (which isn't deep at all), the first morph was produced by Bob Clark in the early 90s. It wasn't until the early 2000s that the first Bumble Bee was displayed by Kevin at NERD and that's when things really started to take off. They're so popular now because the morphs that the average person could only dream about owning 15 years ago are affordable to the masses right now.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

I prefer Colubrids and Boas, which is why I don't see so many owners being breeders at the same time from those.

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I can think of a few reasons why breeding BP's is more popular than boas or colubrids:
- As was pointed out, boas are bigger snakes as adults and finding GOOD homes for them is difficult. A rack of eight 41 qt tubs for adult BP's doesn't take up much space, where my adult BCI's are all in 4'x30"x15" enclosures.
- Boas have bigger litters, up to four times as many babies as one BP.
- There are a lot more BP morphs to "dink" with for a breeder.
- The smaller/dwarf boa species tend to be very snappy/defensive as youngsters, which puts many people off of raising them. Even at a year old my Tarahumara still hisses at me when I open her enclosure, when she gets fed, when I pick her up...
- You don't have to cool BP's for breeding like with many colubrid species, just put the boy in with the girl and magic happens!
- Cannibalism. I have several king snakes and would feel awful if I tried breeding them and one was eaten by the other instead.

All that said, I produced my first clutch this year. Even before they hatched I had several people ask if I would be selling any as pets. Not everyone wants to breed. I think the people who do breed are just more likely to be participating here, sharing their knowledge with new owners, and keeping up with tips, tricks, and industry news from other breeders.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

I just wanted to pose a question for conversation, (maybe should have been put in the 'breeding' section), but why do SO many people breed BP's? I understand the love of snakes, I understand the creativity in breeding different colors, but I still can't comprehend why 1/4 BP owners seems to be a breeder. Can you imagine if 1 in every 4 cat owners were a breeder? Is it the money they're after? The respect? I guess I don't get it. I mean no confrontation by this question, so please no-one get offended or butthurt. I just want educated on why so many BP owners want to be breeders. Very few Colubrid or Boa owners seem to want to become breeders. Reptile shows are now nothing but Ball Python shows because of this. Isn't this kind of self-destructive, to flood the market?

I'm sure I'll get crucified for this question by some, so bring it on I guess. Just keep it a mature discussion, because I really am curious.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

all the breeders promoting online (Facebook, Craigslist, forums, and all the people promoting on Youtube), all the new owners talking about how they are going to breed, and 90% of it is for Ball Pythons;

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Something is always going to be most popular - no avoiding that one. Ball pythons have just been on the pedestal longer than most so it causes some animosity. Maybe their staying power as a popular species has prompted more folks to breed them in hopes of making some money. I personally am breeding with a specific end goal in mind. I have a 12 tub rack reserved for my ball pythons and will probably drop it down to 4 tubs once I reach my goal.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

And thank you to everyone for the mature discussion on this thread. Most other snake sites would have prompted 'SCREW YOU, YOU BALL HATER! GO DIE'. I appreciate everyone's insights and views :)

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What site would have prompted that response I wonder? I've seen ball python enthusiasts blindly thrashed and bashed in such a manner but not so much the other way around. Even if you are a ball python hater, that's your privilege. I keep what interests me personally, find most species intriguing, but do admit that even I am baffled by what some people find enjoyable. I can't knock it though cause I know there are many who feel the same way about some of the creatures I keep.

I miss the variety of the reptile expos but I can hardly blame ball python breeders. I don't think those who put on the expos are being biased or anything either. They have slots available to anybody who is interested in vending their show. It just so happens that a lot of people who breed other stuff stopped buying tables because they felt everybody was there for the ball pythons. People brought into the hobby because of ball pythons might not even be there otherwise so I don't really see where the business was lost for, let's say a Lampropeltis breeder. If anything it's putting more eyes on their snakes. If only 1 out of 100 ball python enthusiasts show interest, that's 1 more that otherwise wouldn't even have been there. Then, you have attendees who stop coming because they were interested in things not regius and these were becoming scarcer and scarcer. Seems more like a self fulfilling prophecy and if I were forced to place the "blame" of the evolution of reptile expositions somewhere I probably wouldn't start with ball python breeders.

**sarcasm on** It was corn snake breeders who started it all - let's go get em! **sarcasm off**

A massive positive note to the increase in our hobby are the sheer numbers that ball pythons have brought to the table. With so many people keeping snakes, whether you like their choice of species or not, it bolsters our ability to fight unjustified legislature against reptiles in general. I shiver to think what laws would now be in place if ball pythons had not become as popular as they are today.

I would say for me it is all about the passion for the animals. I have kept all kinds of reptiles since I was 8 and breeding them was the next logical step in my passion. Why then ball pythons? I should say I'm not completely partial, I also raise king snakes and looking to add a couple more species as well. But the ball python is an incredible animal with so many different colors and patterns. Specifically for me it was the piebald ball python. I remember the first time I ever saw one and I knew I wanted to produce one. Also, I like to teach others about reptiles, ball pythons are a perfect animal to do that with due to their calm disposition and manageable size not to mention the genetics lesson one can include.


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Originally Posted by John1982

Something is always going to be most popular - no avoiding that one. Ball pythons have just been on the pedestal longer than most so it causes some animosity. Maybe their staying power as a popular species has prompted more folks to breed them in hopes of making some money. I personally am breeding with a specific end goal in mind. I have a 12 tub rack reserved for my ball pythons and will probably drop it down to 4 tubs once I reach my goal.



What site would have prompted that response I wonder? I've seen ball python enthusiasts blindly thrashed and bashed in such a manner but not so much the other way around. Even if you are a ball python hater, that's your privilege. I keep what interests me personally, find most species intriguing, but do admit that even I am baffled by what some people find enjoyable. I can't knock it though cause I know there are many who feel the same way about some of the creatures I keep.

I miss the variety of the reptile expos but I can hardly blame ball python breeders. I don't think those who put on the expos are being biased or anything either. They have slots available to anybody who is interested in vending their show. It just so happens that a lot of people who breed other stuff stopped buying tables because they felt everybody was there for the ball pythons. People brought into the hobby because of ball pythons might not even be there otherwise so I don't really see where the business was lost for, let's say a Lampropeltis breeder. If anything it's putting more eyes on their snakes. If only 1 out of 100 ball python enthusiasts show interest, that's 1 more that otherwise wouldn't even have been there. Then, you have attendees who stop coming because they were interested in things not regius and these were becoming scarcer and scarcer. Seems more like a self fulfilling prophecy and if I were forced to place the "blame" of the evolution of reptile expositions somewhere I probably wouldn't start with ball python breeders.

**sarcasm on** It was corn snake breeders who started it all - let's go get em! **sarcasm off**

A massive positive note to the increase in our hobby are the sheer numbers that ball pythons have brought to the table. With so many people keeping snakes, whether you like their choice of species or not, it bolsters our ability to fight unjustified legislature against reptiles in general. I shiver to think what laws would now be in place if ball pythons had not become as popular as they are today.

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By far, the best answer so far :) Thank you, sir!

And for the other website, I was referring to my time on the sSNAKESs forum.

While I've always loved snakes, it wasn't until I got to college that I had the pleasure of attending a reptile show. There, I fell in love with an albino burmese but balked at the size they could get. I brought home a corn snake instead and began breeding a couple years later. Nothing beats seeing a pipping baby... Though I bred corns for many years, now it's getting harder and harder to find buyers for the babies when you're looking at 20-40 babies per female. Unless I know where they are going, I'm not a fan of selling them wholesale, so I've stopped breeding corns. 3 years ago, I found that I could afford an albino ball python (the closest to an albino burmese I'll ever own) and also discovered BEL's. Because I enjoy seeing babies pip and breeding my own stock, I decided to start breeding bps. The smaller clutch sizes and the active market were part of the deciding factors. I don't expect to make money but at least I know that it will be easier to sell the babies to good homes, unlike with corns right now, which is extremely important to me.

I've seen the collection sales and shook my head at the posts where people think they can make a quick buck in this industry, but I don't think that is the majority of breeders, especially not here in this community. Honestly, I feel the word addiction describes exactly why the majority get into it. Despite having 13 bp's, there are still morphs I would love to have and breeding will help me get there.

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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Where's the downvote button when you need it... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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There's much easier and more profitable way to make money than breeding ball pythons. So please calm yourself.

I think most people breed Ball Pythons because they have a dream in producing a certain morph. Plus, it's always nice to produce a morph that you want and at the same time break even (or loose less money) on your hobby.

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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Please explain how it all comes down to money. I'm interested in seeing what your pea brain comes up with.

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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I would love for you to elaborate on this................

For me, it's about selectively breeding in the hopes of producing what I think is the ideal representation of what a base morph or combo should look like.

And experiencing this first hand is completely different than seeing it in pictures or on the net...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/IMG_4962.jpg

Like others, I think where you are and who is doing most of the posting here is biasing your perception by a lot.

Yes, more people are into breeding BP now than there used to be - there are more morphs and more availability than there used to be. There are also more people keeping BP as pets as CBB snakes became available and the price of single gene morphs and normals dropped. People breeding have more to talk ABOUT, so they post more here.

I don't breed. I have ZERO interest in breeding because it's expensive, difficult, and I really don't care about paint-jobs - and for me, as a pet owner, the color and pattern aren't important; they don't change the quality of PET the snake makes.

A lot of the people here (like me), come in, get the basic husbandry information that is useful regardless. We come in, we get that information, we learn the basics. Some people get bitten by 'the bug' and want to breed. Some people (again like me) then kick back and are content to answer the odd basic question, offer our insight occasionally, but mostly just read or wander away again, because. They're snakes. They aren't complicated creatures and their needs are simple. If you're not getting into breeding and trying to figure that out, once your snake is set up there's not a whole lot OUTSIDE of breeding to contemplate, unless you're facing a health issue.

So, yeah, most of the talking going on is breeding related. I mean... honestly, what can I say about my snakes? I have a whole three. I like them a LOT, the BP and the King. They've been set up for 1-2-3 months and feeding regularly and well since I got them. They're neat! I take them outside sometimes. I handle them a lot. I enjoy their personalities. It's fun to watch them grow and mature. I enjoy letting them hang out with me on the computer or while I watch TV at night. I take more pictures than is probably smart. I share some of those pictures.

But there ain't a whole lot for me, as a pet owner, to be posting about here. It's not like we're doing agility classes or they won't stop barking :P

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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hahahahahahaha........ If you think there is any real money to be made breeding ball pythons as a hobby then you are sadly mistaken. Show me a hobby breeder who thinks he/she has made a substantial amount of money breeding bp's and I'll show you someone who isn't keeping track of how much money they have put into breeding bp's. I've put somewhere between $15k-$20k(maybe more) into my bp collection over the past 4 years and even if I hadn't held back the babies from the clutches that I've had, I might have made $2,500.

They're right in the sweet spot:

-Easy to breed
-Easy to keep, space efficient, easy husbandry
-Can be an intro reptile for someone, so the customer base is wider than other reptiles
-They have tons of morphs and combos that combine in predictable ways - tens of thousands of possible combos
-Although predictable, there is a lot of variation which makes the opportunity for selective breeding more exciting than many of the colubrids
-Colubrids are too slender and quick - I actually don't like 'skinny' snakes very much where balls do not give me that primal uncertainty feeling. I know there are others who feel the same
-Clutch size is small enough to maintain a base value per animal and big enough to keep enticing odds on 2+ gene combos 'hitting'

etc.

I don't breed and if I did it would only be for the love of the animals and the process.I respect breeders because it is hard, it is time consuming, and very expensive!Maybe people enter into the hobby thinking they can get rich easy but they don't last long and people that do finally far into the future make money my hat goes off to them they earned it!Rudy the only breeder I talk to off of this site and when he gets a clutch his excitement is like a kid going to Disney land!I like to breed my snakes one day just to see the process and be part of it but I can not afford the time or energy, let alone the money!I am not bashing you at all and I'm sure their are people breeding only for profit but most are decent people that have other jobs to support their love of doing this.As in all things there are people that are doing it for the wrong reasons but it is no simple task to care for these animals or to produce offspring from them.Just housing and caring for a clutch of babies must be nuts, I have no comment about flippers and importers but breeders I respect,especially the ones on here that are always there to answer owners questions over and over again with no profit in it for them!Again in not bashing you in anyway, I think a bunch of people feel that way but that's when you find collection sales on Craigslist lol!

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It has been said on here, but the reason I am looking into breeding is I want to make the best, Bumble Bee, the Best Calider that I can. That's all. Funny thing about the BP taking off like it has, is it has dwindled down the numbers of, forgive me, idiots rushing into a Reticulated or Burmese Python getting bit/killed, having them escape and cause national drama, or like the Burmese python population now in south florida because of people buying something they had no idea about.

Breeding is the next logical step though. After the cage is ready, then it is photo bombing. After that you either quietly enjoy growing old with your snake, get rid of it cause you are bored, or you breed it. =)

** 2 Cents drop**

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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Well lets count...

225 for Unproven Granite Female 125 for proven A+++ YB male 2 years of Feeding Plus bedding Plus Rack and Incubator (around 1400$ give or take)

Don't Even count time (time is money too right??? )

So around after spending around 1800$ i got 3 good eggs hatched 3 granite's (yea I prove my female) sold 2 of them for 50$ each third I given away to my friend so My $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$ is around negative 1700$ :8:

But Quoting MasterCard Commercial:
Seeing little head piping Out of the eggs PRICELESS!!!!!! :cool:

Yea I have Trouble to sell that Pair for 250$ now to finance 2 gene male for My Pewter female...

But "YOU RIGHT" all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$ :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by CptJack

It's not like we're doing agility classes or they won't stop barking :P

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Lol. That made my day. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by BiggBaddWolf

I love the.."I LOVE SNAKES" replies...it all comes down to $$$$$$ cha-ching, cha-ching$$$$$$

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Since I was one of the first "I love snakes" replies, I thought I should respond.

I caught my first snake when I was 4. That was in 1967. I have caught every species of snake that exists in Michigan and even kept many for a summer, releasing them as the weather turned so they could hibernate. One summer when I was 14, I happened to catch 5 fox snakes in one day that all turned out to be female, as they all had about 20 babies apiece. That was amazing, other then I think I may have skewed the population of the area a little by their removal. Since moving to Georgia seven years ago, I have caught 6 of the 26 or so species here.

I had my first ball python and first retic in 1979. I'll give you a hint, there was no ball python industry then. When I met my wife of 26 years now in 1985, she was surprised when I asked her to go to the pet shop with me to buy a mouse for my corn snake. I have three daughters who all "love snakes". My youngest is a ball python enthusiast and owns several as well. My middle daughter just got an "A" on a college presentation. It is a class for teaching as she is going for early childhood development. She did her presentation on ball pythons and took one of the hatchlings in with her. A nice side effect of which was, many of the girls in the class that were afraid of snakes were willing to hold the baby, since my daughter held it through the whole presentation. My oldest graduated from GTech and hopes to be attending UGA for for the veterinarian program next year.

I have spent thousands on the hobby. I've only hatched two clutches to date. Both were YB to Normal. After taking into consideration time, energy, and dollars spent for a hatchling rack and feeding, I have not netted enough to buy a Happy Meal from that Scottish hamburger joint. By the way I still haven't found buyers for 4 of them and they are normals so I am still spending money (negative return) to feed them.

Judging from your remark you may be a little jaded, so please allow me to reiterate. Oh, and you may want to lean in real close so you don't miss what I'm saying.

"I love snakes."

I have always loved snakes and if a hobby can generate income I'm all for it. But in reality not a lot of people are breeders.
We just have a bunch of like minded people in one area so it seems like a lot of breeders.

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