Live Prey vs. F/T as a component of a Snake's "Mental Health"

Please forgive the question, but a clerk at the place where I buy my feeder rats suggested that feeding live prey rather Frozen/Thawed to my bp is better for the snake's well-being. Specifically, he said that snakes who receive F/T tend to be "more depressed." Has anyone else heard anything like this or does anyone have scientific data supporting such a claim? I've always heard that feeding non-live is better, since it reduces the potential for injury to the snake.

Thanks!

A safe, unharmed snake, is more important to me than a snake that feels good about itself in the morning. Just my $0.02.

Curious to see what other people have to say.

I feed f/t and don't have a problem with people who feed live, it's up to you.
The next time I feed I will ask my snakes if they are depressed. lol
I haven't heard that before and dont think they have the emotional capacity for depression.

how would you diagnose depression in a snake?

it makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by bearded_guy

A safe, unharmed snake, is more important to me than a snake that feels good about itself in the morning. Just my $0.02.

Curious to see what other people have to say.

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100% live here, you asked.................... takes a lazy keeper to really have a problem.:gj:

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

how would you diagnose depression in a snake?

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If its wagging its tail or not :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Did you ever think that some ball pythons go off food for long periods because they feel guilty and depressed about having to kill their prey? Maybe they feel bad for the poor rats families that are being left behind.....:rofl::rofl: Sounds about as likely as them being depressed from only eating f/t....just saying.....lmao.
I really don't think it matters to the snake. As long as he gets his food he's happy. (At least that's what mine tell me anyway)

What matters is to feed what works for your snake and what is convenient for you whether it's live or f/t, it does not matter.

I feed some animals live (BP) and some F/T (Hognose snakes) all without exception are healthy and thriving, haven't caught any call DR Phil yet :rolleyes:

Next time can you ask the store clerk what the signs of depression in snakes are?

Well I had to sit my snake down and tell him maybe 1 day he could get live. Saw him trying to drown himself!!


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A rat is a rat if it's f/t or not. My snakes still hunt the rat even though it's dead they don't care they just want to eat some rat haha. I think my snakes are pretty happy with the consistent meals they are getting. :)


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

A rat is a rat if it's f/t or not. My snakes still hunt the rat even though it's dead they don't care they just want to eat some rat haha. I think my snakes are pretty happy with the consistent meals they are getting. :)


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Have to say I agree with this, not that I'm an expert in any way. I'm actually pretty new to it all, but my BP hunts and kills her F/T every time with enthusiasm, fairly sure she doesn't even know the difference........my black king on the other hand, VERY lazy with the whole process, there's no hunting, no killing she just comes over strikes and swallows.

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If you do the zombie dance properly the snake thinks it's live anyway.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If you do the zombie dance properly the snake thinks it's live anyway.

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Nothing like a proper zombie dance to help with depressed snakes:D

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I imagine mental stimulation is what's at stake, and I've seen enough videos of snakes being excited over already dead rodents. Maybe something similar to depression is occuring in snakes otherwise bored with their overall keeping, but given that some snakes eat dead things in the wild already, I doubt that has much to do with it. Especially considering that if they deem the meal good enough to eat, they're probably fairly happy with it. Just give them nice alternative views now and again, along with exercise. Keep the cool blood flowing. My views are all formed from second-hand experience, though.

Dog will hunt

All it takes is an accident. My sister-in-law got to see a ball python miss a strike, and a rat take the top of its skull off. I have a rescued yellow rat snake, Ratbait, who is blind. He's been blind for 5 years. His old owners continued feeding him live and one day he missed his strike in such a way that the rat was able to maul his face.

http://imageshack.com/a/img12/9561/ratbait5.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img7/6535/ratbait3.jpg

While his old owner was not particularly responsible, the facial injury can happen in the blink of an eye, even for someone who is hovering over the snake. I don't want to take that risk with my snakes when they will all take F/T for me.

And snakes have died from improperly thawed F/T. And horses have died from random things being in their hay, and dogs from bad kibble, etc. Nothing is risk free. I don't think a rat could maul a snake that bad if the owner had been feeding the right size and supervising the feeding. I'd never throw a full grown rat in with a ball python. I cant remember who it is, but I think it's a mod on here, that has done something like 10,000+ live feedings and is incident free. You do it right and it's not dangerous.

I don't think snakes need stimulation. My ball pythons seem pretty content on staring into the blackness of their hides all day. The boa seems pretty content with herself by digging a trench in the aspen by the the glass and resting her chin on the edge to watch what's going on in the room.

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You do it right and it's not dangerous.

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It would be more accurate to say "You do it carefully and the risks are minimized."

Dogs have died from bad kibble, or choking. But they have to eat to live, so it's a risk that must be taken. However, the food can't fight back. I don't release deer into my living room for my dog to hunt in part because they can fight back (plus just imagine the mess!) I view it similarly to those who mention that cannibalism is rare in corn snakes; I've had two different females attempt to eat their mates (paired 5 days after feeding, so not overly hungry and should be no real food 'smell' left to entice) and I only have a couple dozen snakes. Sometimes you get crappy odds. I just figure that the added risk is entirely unnecessary if the snake will take f/t.

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Originally Posted by scalrtn

Please forgive the question, but a clerk at the place where I buy my feeder rats suggested that feeding live prey rather Frozen/Thawed to my bp is better for the snake's well-being. Specifically, he said that snakes who receive F/T tend to be "more depressed." Has anyone else heard anything like this or does anyone have scientific data supporting such a claim? I've always heard that feeding non-live is better, since it reduces the potential for injury to the snake.

Thanks!

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I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just trying to figure out a pet store employee thinking a snake is depressed. Surely this guy is smarter than that!! The only thing I can come up with is that he is trying to make a fast buck! The live "pet mice or rats" tend to cost a bit more than f/t. At least in the pet stores in my area.
You get your snake eating on either one that you can and you and your snake will be happy. No need to call Dr. Phil over this one!

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

And snakes have died from improperly thawed F/T.

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I have no problem with feeding live this is just my 2cents, but I've read this many times and to me it's 100% the owners fault for feeding an improperly thawed rat. If someone can't take a frozen rat out of a bag and let it thaw out until it's not frozen it's there fault. If you feed a snake a live rodent and the rodent decides to fight for it's own life by chewing on your snake whose fault is that? I understand that you can be on stand by if the snake does get a bad hold on the rat but sometimes the damage might already be done since things can happen so quickly. Even with an appropriately sized, well fed, happy, oblivious rats some will fight to stay alive and you never really know when that's going to happen. You just have to be on guard and watch the situation very closely. You can never be too careful.


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

I have no problem with feeding live this is just my 2cents, but I've read this many times and to me it's 100% the owners fault for feeding an improperly thawed rat. If someone can't take a frozen rat out of a bag and let it thaw out until it's not frozen it's there fault. If you feed a snake a live rodent and the rodent decides to fight for it's own life by chewing on your snake whose fault is that? I understand that you can be on stand by if the snake does get a bad hold on the rat but sometimes the damage might already be done since things can happen so quickly. Even with an appropriately sized, well fed, happy, oblivious rats some will fight to stay alive and you never really know when that's going to happen. You just have to be on guard and watch the situation very closely. You can never be too careful.


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Sadly in the vast majority of cases where there is an incident (in other words all those terrible pictures you see floating around which are used by pro f/t feeders) the owner is at fault as well, mistakes such as feeding a prey too large, stressing the feeder, leaving the prey too long in the enclosure, feeding a malnourished or dehydrated prey etc, stunning the prey etc.

A proper size healthy prey will go in a corner and fall asleep, they do not attack or go and chew on snakes.

I have been feeding slightly over 200 live preys each month since 2007 when I started breeding feeders (you do the maths) and I have ZERO incident to report and have NEVER intervened either, it's not luck many others have done so as well ;).....

Now back to the regular programming.

I think the clerk is a good salesperson, I have snakes that eat both and have similar personalities!I doubt some of my snakes would know what to do with live prey,I have a corn snake that literally doesn't even bite her food,a live mouse could kill her!I do have a few that no matter what I do will not touch f/t I would like them to but they don't.In my case its not a issue with live prey but I do love my animals and fear for their safety,I have seen nasty rat bites on other peoples snakes and worry for mine, still they have to eat so I do what I have to.The only reason I would risk live food is if there is no choice.If your snake will eat f/t that is a good thing,stick with it!All the things that are dangerous to our animals that we can avoid are a big bonuses,why risk what we don't have to!I doubt your snake is depressed, pet store animals are never in great husbandry so they might not be happy there so they need to kill something to release aggression!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Sadly in the vast majority of cases where there is an incident (in other words all those terrible pictures you see floating around which are used by pro f/t feeders) the owner is at fault as well, mistakes such as feeding a prey too large, stressing the feeder, leaving the prey too long in the enclosure, feeding a malnourished or dehydrated prey etc, stunning the prey etc.

A proper size healthy prey will go in a corner and fall asleep, they do not attack or go and chew on snakes.

I have been feeding slightly over 200 live preys each month since 2007 when I started breeding feeders (you do the maths) and I have ZERO incident to report and have NEVER intervened either, it's not luck many others have done so as well ;).....

Now back to the regular programming.

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Of course rats don't go around chewing on snakes, sorry if I worded it weird and it sounded that way. I was just saying that when it's in a life or death situation it may try to chew on the snake so it can live. And I never said that feeding live couldn't be successful it can be of course many people have never had any accidents but still. Just saying but anyway back to the the topic.


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Originally Posted by eclipse3

Did you ever think that some ball pythons go off food for long periods because they feel guilty and depressed about having to kill their prey? Maybe they feel bad for the poor rats families that are being left behind.....:rofl::rofl: Sounds about as likely as them being depressed from only eating f/t....just saying.....lmao.
I really don't think it matters to the snake. As long as he gets his food he's happy. (At least that's what mine tell me anyway)

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Best answer, conversation is now over.

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions

Nope... no depression...

Honestly depression is a complicated emotion, snakes feel pain, Fear (the anticipation of Pain), and Joy. If they were capable of complicated emotions then that would require bigger brains to produce more chemicals, but they don't...

Find a snake whisperer...

An appropriately sized rodent will not be able to fight back. And it shouldn't be aggressive or attack out of no where, especially if it's being kept up to standards: well fed, well watered, calm, not stunned, healthy, etc.

Small rats are naive and really unconscious to danger at that age. Nobody should be feeding live adult large rats to their balls. A snake can handle prey just fine without much effort as long as they are not over sized. Of course an over sized prey may be able to fight back, which is why it's not recommended to feed large prey.

I have done hundreds of live feedings because I have snakes who will not take f/t. And I selectively breed my rats for good temperaments. They don't bite or act aggressive even if in danger. All they do is explore the enclosure or just sit in the corner of the tub and fall asleep.