Devil Child of a Cat

I have a question for any other cat people that may be here. I have a two year old male cat, unfixed, who I'm trying to train out of spraying in my apartment. I have pet odor removal stuff so the smell isn't so much of an issue. I've been using negative reinforcement, a squirtbottle and a firm "no" plus putting him in a dog crate when I sleep at night.

The reason I've chosen to keep him unfixed is a bit of a long story, but the short version is that his full brother, Red, was very special to myself and my brother. Red took off out the door at my old house in December of 2011 and never came back. He never turned up on craigslist, none of the neighbors ever saw him, and although my brother hiked all around the isolated property he never found a trace of his body. Two days after he took off we had horrible half sleet half snow falling for a day and a half, so either the coyotes, an eagle, or the weather ended Red. We missed Red a lot and felt bad we were never able to find him, so a couple of years later we adopted the cat I have now, Murry. We had two other cats at the time so we definitely weren't looking for a third cat, but Murry is Red's full brother and the last litter from their mother. So we brought home Murry and decided that we would keep him, not fix him and breed him later on down the road. Both Murry and Red came from an excellent line of hunters. Red dragged back a bushy tailed rock rat the size of a small rabbit, as well as small rabbits on a regular basis. Originally, my brother was going to keep Murry and I was going to move out with the other two cats. Circumstances have changed to where my brother has to move and can't take Murry, so I am now responsible for all three cats.

My other two cats are fixed, one is a 12 year old fixed male (Asher), the other a 3 year old fixed female(Aussie). My question is this; how do I get Murry to stop spraying? I've done a little research and as far as I can tell, even if we get him fixed now he might still spray.

try feliway diffusers, it is the facial pheromone that cats give off when rubbing their face on things, this pheromone it to mark items or their humans lol as something that they love, and that belongs to them. I have an neutered male cat that urinates outside of the litter box and it helped to resolve the issue. He is probably spraying because he is intact and is marking his territory. The feliway will hopefully give him some confidence that he is in control of his environment and help to decrease the spraying.

Neuter him.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Neuter him.

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I second that

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This is a sacrifice to having both a male cat and an unaltered male cat.

Get him fixed, theres plenty of cats in the world needing homes and obviously your brother no longer as vested interest in the cat or he would make arrangements to move to where he could have pets.

Hate to say it, but I doubt anything will help while he's still intact. If breeding him is that important to you, consider giving him his own small room, or building a large cage he spends most of his time in. He could be let out for supervised time, but he would essentially be a caged pet. As long as he had toys and climbing areas, he wouldn't get too bored.

Agreed. Neutering is going to be the only chance at getting him to stop if you want to keep him in your house. There are so many other cats that need homes that whatever you are looking for in the future, you'll be able to find in a rescue.

I'm opposed to neutering him for several reasons. The biggest reason is that I intend to breed him to keep the line going, and keep a link back to Red. Another reason is, well, I think it would be a little rude to get him fixed at this point. I've been making progress with training him to stop spraying, and I knew someone else who kept an intact tom inside and successfully trained him out of spraying in the house.

I looked up the feliway difusers and I'm giving that a go as soon as I get extra income again. I'm putting it down as a top priority at this point.

The odd thing is that Murry didn't start spraying until a couple months ago, after the most recent move. He'd been through two moves with the other cats prior to this last one, in what has been one of the most stressful periods of both my life and my cats lives. I think part of it is that these guys have been a clowder for barely a year, and my older cat has always been opposed to new cats coming in the household. Most of the time its Asher that's the antagonizer, and I've noticed Murry tends to spray only where he's scented Asher or immediately after they've had a confrontation. I think another big part of it is that I don't have a lot of spaces for them to climb or a lot of toys right now either. A lot of stuff got lost in the last couple of moves. That's top on my priority list as well.

I'm planning on moving again in one to two years (relocating for school) and settling down in a house of my own sometime after that. I do plan on building the cats a run (basically a large jungle gym space outside that's caged and connects inside the house.

So you have 3 cats, and you want to have kittens to continue a line of mutt cats, basically.

There are thousands of cats needing home, yet you're going to bring more into the world.

Get him neutered.


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He may not be a purebred cat but I like the line he comes from. I'm not planning on breeding an army of cats. There are a ton of bps in captivity that are receiving sub par care or need permanent homes, not to mention all the larger pythons that get killed or abandoned, yet I would never suggest that people not breed them if they desire to do so. I find this comment rude.

I will also point out that humans as a species are overpopulated, and that we should not be reproducing at such a high rate, yet I would never suggest that someone get themselves fixed (before or after kids) as a solution.




I will also add that I've spoken to my vet and she has stated that getting him fixed will have a high chance of NOT stoppingthe spraying.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

So you have 3 cats, and you want to have kittens to continue a line of mutt cats, basically.

There are thousands of cats needing home, yet you're going to bring more into the world.

Get him neutered.


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Originally Posted by PhoenixGate

He may not be a purebred cat but I like the line he comes from. I'm not planning on breeding an army of cats. There are a ton of bps in captivity that are receiving sub par care or need permanent homes, not to mention all the larger pythons that get killed or abandoned, yet I would never suggest that people not breed them if they desire to do so. I find this comment rude.

I will also point out that humans as a species are overpopulated, and that we should not be reproducing at such a high rate, yet I would never suggest that someone get themselves fixed (before or after kids) as a solution.




I will also add that I've spoken to my vet and she has stated that getting him fixed will have a high chance of NOT stoppingthe spraying.

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hmmm...I must be a rude person because I'd have no problem suggesting someone not breed ball pythons if they weren't in a position to deal with the consequences. Same thing with humans. No problem there either...

I find it irresponsible to not spay or neuter dogs and cats unless you are a professional breeder. There are too many of them with out homes, that get put down. You're not even breeding a purebred cat... you just want part of a cat that's gone. Let him go, and neuter that poor cat. And, locking the poor thing in a crate at night is just cruel. He's getting sprayed and locked in a crate for doing something that comes natural to him, because you chose to not neuter him. That's not his decision or fault. Smh. :(

And as far as the overpopulation of humans...

Standing shoulder-to-shoulder, the entire world's population could fit within the 500 square miles of Los Angeles.

Our planet is not nearly as overpopulated as people think. We just tend to gather together...:D

Quote from the internet:

The age at which a tom cat sexually matures can vary greatly but in general it occurs between 5 and 12 months. Many factors can affect at which age a male cat starts spraying. Male cats in multi-cat households or in close proximity to other cats are more likely to spray at a younger age.

Spraying is territorial and can also be stress related. Neutering or spaying a kitten at an early age can prevent spraying problems in the future. Your veterinarian will advise you on the best age to neuter your kitten.

Multi-cat households usually have a far greater problem with spraying than single cat households. Overcrowding of cats will often result in problems with territory marking.

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Squirting him with water and locking him in a kennel at night is a great way to stress a cat out.

You also have 2 other cats.

In an apartment.

And now you want kittens.

And you'll probably keep one.

So now you'll have 4 cats in an apartment?




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not to mention the other 5 kittens and the mother, what happens once you have your little Red clone?

sorry, irresponsible breeding (of any species, INCLUDING ball pythons, by the way) is the reason we have so many sick/dying/abused/neglected animals in the world. Responsible breeders have reliable, loving prospective homes in the planning stages of litters/clutches.

Besides, his sperm count is already lowering at 2 years old, and you're increasing his risk of diabetes and urinary tract illness by keeping him intact. He's also probably high-strung as a result of both being intact and being kept in a box at night. Neutering him will calm him down and reduce his spraying, if not eliminate it, which allows him time out of the box.

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So are you going to be spaying and neutering all the kittens to prevent more mutt cats down the road? I don't say mutt as an offense because all my best dogs have been mutts, but by mutt you don't know the cat's lineage, you don't have papers, and you don't have anything show worthy. If you're going to breed, breed something that's worth it. Heck I feel the same way about those people doing simple co dom crosses with ball pythons to normal females. Which is why I won't be doing that. I'm going to make combos worth it, and I'll be hanging onto those babies if they don't sell. Are you going to do the responsible thing and spay and neuter all those kittens and find them good homes? Do you have the money to get them all their shots and spay/neuter them? Are you going to keep them if they don't find homes?

I just find it really irresponsible to breed an animal to just carry on the line. BPs and cats are different. 100 BPs isn't as crazy to me as having 5+ cats. Cats are more work I'd think. My grandma breeds dogs occasionally. She has really nice stock (papered too), great colors, and people lined up to buy the pups each and every time. She has also bred her horses and they are always from papered stock and with excellent sires. She also gets all the colts gelded. I actually have a gelding that she bred for me. I got him gelded early and he's got a forever home with me. He means a lot to me but no way would I keep him intact just to get a foal from him to carry on the line. That's not fair to him at all. He'd have to lead a completely different life if he was intact. Not to mention if I were to breed a mammal like that, I'd buy the best stock I could afford and breed it to the best stock I could afford. I'd also be keeping that baby personally or make sure I do the right thing and geld it and train it up for a new owner.

Breed with a good purpose (producing the best animal you can conformationally and for an intended purpose like show). My horse was bred to be very athletic and boy is he. With things like horses, dogs, and cats there are SO many average jo's there's no reason to add more average stock to the population. There are so many waiting at shelters or rescues. I'm sorry about Red but think of the life this male cat is having. That's not fair he has to be locked up because you want one baby from him. Plus neutering when older is harder on them physically and it takes a while (six months or so) for them to stop the spraying. So stop waiting on it. He'll also live a long life once he's neutered. Red's death opened up the door for you to adopt another cat. And when that cat eventually passes, they open up the door for another cat to have a loving home with you. That's exactly what I plan on doing with my future dogs. I'm going to adopt a Pit from a shelter. When that animal eventually passes, well they gave me a lot of love and made way for me to give my love to the next needy animal.

Sorry for the novel. Just please don't breed for sentimental reasons. Breed for good conformation, from good bloodlines, and for good personality if that's what you're going to do. (Which means go invest in some cats from good show lines)

http://youtu.be/sP4NMoJcFd4

That was actually kinda catchy


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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

That was actually kinda catchy


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I know! I catch myself singing it the shower all the time!

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Do you realize the numbers of healthy cats euthanized yearly at shelters? It's in the hundreds of thousands (at least). Your cat (and you) would be happier if he were neutered. All the negative reinforcement you are trying to do is going to stress him out much worse in the long run than him having a minor surgery. It's a very quick and easy procedure.

I actually also feel the same about ball pythons and stopped breeding them in 2009 when our local herp society started having major issues trying to place the rescue ones. I felt it wasn't a responsible thing for me to produce more when there were a lot needing homes.

I also made the choice to never have children myself (and made that choice permanent, medically) - besides personal reasons, I just never saw any need for me to add to the overpopulation problem.

I am not completely against responsible breeding for dogs, cats, snakes, etc when what you produce will be of benefit to the breed in some way. For your cat, there's no special 'line' that needs to be continued. So yes, I agree 100% on not ever breeding him. Rest assured, there will be cats needing homes that will have the traits you are looking for, and many many cats related to him that have probably bred already. Remember, every home you find for kittens you produced is a home that has less ability to adopt another cat. You have a choice. Please do the responsible thing.

What is it about Murry, Red's full brother, that you can not love as much as you did with Red? How can you be certain you would even get a kitten similar to Red out of his brother? You will more then likely get more kittens like Murry who would be the father, not Red. How many litters are you going to attempt in hopes of finding another kitten like Red? I can understand the emotional part, but please do Murry the favor of getting him neutered and just love him as much as you did Red.

I know you really don't want to hear this, but please get him neutered. If nothing people has said convinced you, please think about the fact that an unfixed cat is more likely to run away. When there's females nearby in heat, which there will be due to a lot of irresponsible people leaving their unspayed females outside, your cat's hormones will take over and he will go after the female. When he does there are chances of him never coming back. So if you want to have the best chance of the entire tragedy not repeating itself, get him neutered.

As to breeding to retain cats like Red. Genetics with cats are very confusing, people have tried cloning cats before with very disappointing results. The same cat, with same genes, has a total different color and personality. In essence there's absolutely nothing retained from the original cat, and this is using 100% identical genes. Even if you breed Murry, you will never end up with a cat exactly like Red or possibly not even close to Red. You will have the same chance of finding a cat like Red if you go and adopt another cat (but with this case you get to choose how to cat look's like at least! and good adoption centers will know their personality as well). So please, save a kitten or even multiple kittens from certain death. Cats that do not find a home are euthanized in kill shelters, and non-kill shelters are always low in room to accept more cats. Also have you planned on what you will be doing with 4-6 little kittens? If you were to give a single one away, that kitten will take the spot of a kitten that is sitting in a kill shelter, hoping to find a good home while a timer till his euthanization date ticks.

As an animal trainer who actually specialized in cats, I can tell you right now that the squirt bottle is completely useless.
Cats are not stupid animals, and their independent personalities make training them tricky.
That type of technique may work with dogs, since dogs actually may care that you don't want them to do something. Cats on the other hand don't really care at all.
Cats very quickly make the association between the squirt bottle, and the human controlling it. The best you can achieve with "squirt bottle training" is a cat who won't do the behaviour.... when you are around. Or they will still do it, but will stop as soon as you pick up the bottle... Not exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

Male cats spray to mark their territory. They do so because they feel they have to, and it's their instinct. Feliway might help. So might an abundance of ledges/cat trees/table tops for him to feel "high and confident" on.

Also, make sure you have the proper amount of litter boxes for the amount of cats you have. That's 1 litter box per cat, plus another. So you need 4 litter boxes, and they must all be cleaned at a minimum once a day.

Other than that, get him neutered. But at his age, there is no guarantee that it will stop the behaviour. It is already an established habit.


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