Virgin BP laid 6 eggs!

I have a 14 year old BP who has never been near another snake. I bought her when she was a baby. I came home last night to find her wrapped around six eggs! How did this happen? Am I right in that the eggs cannot be fertile? Thanks in advance!

Reptiles have a neat little evolutionary trick to survive called Parthenogenesis. It is a form of asexual reproduction that does not need fertilization to occur.

Females can basically clone themselves and produce viable eggs that can hatch.

Most of the time, they will reabsorb their follicles if no mating takes place, but sometimes they still develop into unfertilized eggs and get laid as slugs.

On very rare occasions, though, ball pythons have been known to spontaneously lay fertile eggs without having been with a male. The process is called parthenogenesis and is more common among a few other reptile species, but not entirely unheard of in ball pythons.

It's such a rare event though, that documentation of it would be valuable. You can use a small, bright flashlight to "candle" the eggs and look for veins. If you see veins, and if the number of veins increases over time, then the eggs are fertile. If they are infertile, then the eggs will look more opaque against the light.

Please keep us updated on what you find!

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Reptiles have a neat little evolutionary trick to survive called Parthenogenesis. It is a form of asexual reproduction that does not need fertilization to occur.

Females can basically clone themselves and produce viable eggs that can hatch.

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WOW...I did not know this. I looked it up and just WOW! Pretty cool.

Thank you for the info! I'll keep you posted. The eggs are almost completely covered by Ramses (the mother), but I'll try the light trick. The eggs are very white, almost marshmallow like.

just to chime in, technically they could not be exact clones of the female! Hope they hatch

When she left the eggs to get a drink of water, I tried to see veins by shining a flashlight through them the eggs, but I didn't see any. Maybe I should try a brighter light?

Wasnt there a thread on here about a BRB doing this?

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Originally Posted by Juicer82

Maybe I should try a brighter light?

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Dark Room!

I'll try a darker room. I'm very new to this stuff, so don't feel bad if you feel you're stating the obvious.

What about temperature? I keep reading 90 degrees or something close to that.

That's wild! An Easter miracle!

If they're fertile, we expect a progression thread, please.

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Originally Posted by carbn8

Wasnt there a thread on here about a BRB doing this?

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Yup.

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Originally Posted by Juicer82

What about temperature? I keep reading 90 degrees or something close to that.

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That's fine. Just keep it as steady as possible and mom will regulate the clutch.

I suggest adding some moss to keep humidity up.

You should check out the Maternal Incubation thread. It is stickied in the Breeding Sub-forum.

I agree with Nikki, or maybe someone near you has room in their incubator?

Oh my gosh! I didn't know ball pythons could be asexual! So would the babies have the same markings as mom? Pleas keep us updated, this is just too cool! Hope they are fertile, some pics would be cool ;)


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Originally Posted by Scirly2242846

Oh my gosh! I didn't know ball pythons could be asexual! So would the babies have the same markings as mom? Pleas keep us updated, this is just too cool! Hope they are fertile, some pics would be cool ;)


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Ball pythons aren't asexual. This clutch likely happened due to parthenogenisis, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

^which is a type of asexual reproduction as mentioned earlier in the thread....


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Wow! I didn't know such a thing was possible. Ooooh please update with what happens with those eggs when you can. :) very interesting.


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amazing :)

pictures would be helpful!


edit: oh, and about candling... just do it at night, have the room completely dark, and one small flashlight. then you check out where the female is using the flashlight, and when you get a chance, just put the flashlight up against one egg. then you should be able to see something.

edit 2: video of candling eggs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MuZBMGdJA

This is crazy! This is one of the main reason i love bps they can always surprise you! I'm extremely curious to see if they are fertile or not please keep us updated!

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Hope they hatch! Good luck!

I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for the responses!

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Originally Posted by brettfong

just to chime in, technically they could not be exact clones of the female! Hope they hatch

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False. Partho is a direct copy of the DNA found within the female (clone, copy, etc.). This includes variability in pattern, and other characteristics. It would require a random mutation for a partha to not be genetically identical to the mother. In all cases, the resulting offspring will all be female.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

False. Partho is a direct copy of the DNA found within the female (clone, copy, etc.). This includes variability in pattern, and other characteristics. It would require a random mutation for a partha to not be genetically identical to the mother. In all cases, the resulting offspring will all be female.

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False, actually. Because when the cells that create ovum are copying themselves, the chromosomes will swap around bits in their pairs, resulting in variation. Also, the female will produce males because in snakes, males are the ones with homozygous sex chromosomes, unlike in mammals. In fact, they mostly produce males because the WW (female sex chromosome) is usually not viable. ZZ is viable (male) and ZW (female)

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

False, actually. Because when the cells that create ovum are copying themselves, the chromosomes will swap around bits in their pairs, resulting in variation. Also, the female will produce males because in snakes, males are the ones with homozygous sex chromosomes, unlike in mammals. In fact, they mostly produce males because the WW (female sex chromosome) is usually not viable. ZZ is viable (male) and ZW (female)

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'Mechanisms that result in completely homozygous individuals are excluded as the mechanism of parthenogenesis in the Burmese python, because there is no segregation of sex chromosomes and AFLP makers in the offspring: all offspring are female (ZW) and have identical AFLP fingerprints. Three other mechanisms, viz., central fusion, premeiotic doubling, and fusion of the first polar nucleus with the nucleus of the secondary oocyte, are all expected to result in offspring that are genetically identical to the mother. Cytological studies should allow distinction between these three mechanisms."

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v9.../6800210a.html

Molecular genetic evidence for parthenogenesis in the Burmese python, Python molurus bivittatus

T V M Groot1, E Bruins2 and J A J Breeuwer1
2003

If you are going to dispute me. Please have evidence. You are incorrect. I will not go call my university for a refund on my degree now. . . that was a close one . . .

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

False. Partho is a direct copy of the DNA found within the female (clone, copy, etc.). This includes variability in pattern, and other characteristics. It would require a random mutation for a partha to not be genetically identical to the mother. In all cases, the resulting offspring will all be female.

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sorry! just thought there is still some chance that the offspring could not be full clones but maybe half clones with most alleles similar to the mother but still forming a diploid offspring

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Originally Posted by Scirlygirl

^which is a type of asexual reproduction as mentioned earlier in the thread....


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Double checked and you're right. I had my terminology wrong. Thank you for correcting me.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

False. Partho is a direct copy of the DNA found within the female (clone, copy, etc.). This includes variability in pattern, and other characteristics. It would require a random mutation for a partha to not be genetically identical to the mother. In all cases, the resulting offspring will all be female.

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This is correct.

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.o...7-a8a03c101bd2

To quote from this scientific article detailing instances of parthenogenesis in pit vipers...

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. In caenophidian snakes, a derived clade containing most of the extant species[18], FP results in the production of unusually small litters that are composed entirely of males with low offspring viability and large numbers of developmental failures [6,7,10].

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We are actually both correct on the genders to a degree. MOST snake species produce all males during parthenogenesis (unless obligates), but apparently the boids like to produce all females.

Very interesting thread.


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Wow!!!! Amazing!!! I would love to see what happens. Incredible.


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i think if the eggs actually hatch, it would be all females, and all similar to the mother.

but i think the chances are low. and there is one REALLY BIG question that is unanswered so far:

do they candle as fertile or do they candle as infertile? are there veins? and could we see pictures of the eggs?

the discussion about the genetics and how it is possible will be much less interesting when they are all infertile, and much more interesting when some show veins and candle as fertile.

updates, please :):):)

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.o...7-a8a03c101bd2

To quote from this scientific article detailing instances of parthenogenesis in pit vipers...



We are actually both correct on the genders to a degree. MOST snake species produce all males during parthenogenesis (unless obligates), but apparently the boids like to produce all females.

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Pit Viper reproduction is NOT the same as python.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

False. Partho is a direct copy of the DNA found within the female (clone, copy, etc.). This includes variability in pattern, and other characteristics. It would require a random mutation for a partha to not be genetically identical to the mother. In all cases, the resulting offspring will all be female.

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This first statement of yours read to me as a generalization for all snakes. You said "In all cases..." which is why I commented, because that absolute regarding "all cases" is not correct.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Pit Viper reproduction is NOT the same as python.

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Yes, I know, and that's why I said "...but apparently the boids like to produce all females." It was late for me, I was tired (11 hour shift at work plus bottle feeding 10 day old kittens) and forgot to include "and the pythons are likely to do the same" as they're both 'ancient' snakes versus the new kids on the scene who make males.

Here are a few photos of the eggs

Sorry. I don't know how to post photos. Forum illiterate.

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Originally Posted by Juicer82

Sorry. I don't know how to post photos. Forum illiterate.

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Upload them to an image-hosting site like photobucket.com or to your own gallery here.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps77dad4aa.jpghttp://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps6082791a.jpghttp://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k...psccbd37ca.jpghttp://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps6edeb79b.jpg

Hooray Jesus snake is born!

Jk that's really cool. I hope they are fertile

Well! Did you see veins?!

are there veins??
congrats!!

The mother is completely coving them so I can't put a light to them yet. I don't feel comfortable stressing her out by moving her. The next time I change the water, I'll do it at night just in case she moves to drink it like she did before. Any suggestions?

The suspense is killing me!
Sub

UPDATE!!!!! I was able to move the mother a little (she didn't strike at me, just seemed pissed), and put a light to three of the six eggs. One glowed yellow, one seemed reddish, but I wasn't sure, and the third was reddish and I saw a vein! I think I can safely say that there is at least one fertile egg in there.

This is incredible!


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New Update:

I was able to check all six eggs, and 4 of them have veins. The one one the middle seems to have the most veins. Is four out of six pretty typical? How about for parthenogenesis?

Wow, this is amazing! Never knew this could happen!

now this is becoming REALLY REALLY INTERESTING.

i would not have expected any of them to candle as fertile.

i guess if they hatch, it will be all females that are genetically similar to the mother. thats how asexual reproduction works in almost all cases.

I did a google search on BP's reproducing this way, and I found a thread from 2008 from this very site where someone had the same thing happen. At least two other people said that it happened to their snakes also, so as rare as this seems, it happens more often than I first thought.

I want a baby if they hatch! If you're going to sell them that is!!!! :)


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