Butter Calico Morph?

Anyone ever made one or know someone who have? Now, I know some people will disagree with me but i'm not looking for a Lesser Calico. Lesser is not the same as the Butter gene.

Anyways, I'm thinking about getting one but haven't seen any pictures of one. The closest thing i've seen is the Butter Calico Pastel morph. Any help in the right direction is appreciated.

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:popcorn:

So what makes you say butter and lesser are different morphs?

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Originally Posted by sho220

:popcorn:

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lol ^^

okay... so, super lesser, super butter, and lesser butter look identical and all of them have a chance to have the same eye issue.

when you breed a lesser butter to a normal, or to any morph really, you cannot tell apart the lessers and the butters. the same is true when you breed a lesser (or a combo containing lesser) to a butter (or a combo containing butter).

lesser and butter behave the same in every known morph combo. there is no known combo that can allow you to distinguish the two.

so i would say they are the same morph. or, lets put it this way: the abundance of indications that they are the same morph and the complete absence of evidence that they are not the same makes it really difficult to convince anyone that they are not the same.

and there is a practical issue: because the are the same morph, people have no problem at all with re-labeling them. so if you look hard for a butter, someone might just sell you a butter that was born as a lesser but got re-labeled to match your demand. that would not be a nice thing to do, but really, you would have no chance of ever finding out. so you really need a pedigree that goes back far enough into the past so that you can trace it to the original butter, and can rule out any mislabeling or cross-breeding with lesser over the years. this may be a difficult task, given that in recent years, many breeders mix the two genes and make no effort to keep them seperate.

Well I'll give you guys a good example: I have a bumble bee and I was looking for a butter fire for my bee. Now according to WOBP genetic wizard (its my only source of figuring out what i'd get), if you mix a bee with a butter/fire it will get totally different combos than if you'd mix it with lesser/fire.

That draws me to a conclusion that butters and lessers are not the same thing. I know this isn't the best argument but at least you can see the difference for yourself.



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Dynasty Reptiles produces them. I produced a calico lesser this season and they are gorgeous.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

if you mix a bee with a butter/fire it will get totally different combos than if you'd mix it with lesser/fire.




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But they are the same combo.....
What you see in the photographs on WOBP is just natural variation.


If there's a lesser that looks a certain way, there's a butter out there that looks exactly the same. Also take into consideration the the spiders or fires they use could look totally different from the other and change the way the combo morph looks too....


Butter and Lesser are the same genetic mutation. Even their founding breeders say they are the same.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Well I'll give you guys a good example: I have a bumble bee and I was looking for a butter fire for my bee. Now according to WOBP genetic wizard (its my only source of figuring out what i'd get), if you mix a bee with a butter/fire it will get totally different combos than if you'd mix it with lesser/fire.

That draws me to a conclusion that butters and lessers are not the same thing. I know this isn't the best argument but at least you can see the difference for yourself.



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Look at Butter Fire Spider and check pics 4 and 5. Then compare them to the image of the Lesser Fire Spider. They look the same. Because they are the same. Look through the Lesser Pastel Spider and Butter Pastel Spider pics as well. They look the same. There's a huge variation in coloring and pattern with both, but they are essentially the same.

I disagree butter look different than lessers. Even on the WOBP it says that Butters are similar to lessers but come from a different bloodline. Just because they're similar doesnt make them the same.

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I feel like im fighting a loosing battle here. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I feel like im fighting a loosing battle here. Lol.

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You're late to the party...this battle has been fought a million times. They're the same thing...

So how come these two are different? One is a butter calico pastel and the other one is a lesser calico pastel?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y4evygat.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y8a4u6ev.jpg

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Consider this...Even if there was a slight difference in the two. There was a time, long ago, that Butters were selling for a bit more than Lessers. Now that fact probably wasn't lost on a breeder sitting on a bunch of Lessers. He probably thought, gee...these look so similiar I could probably sell these Lessers as Butters, so he did. Those customers then bred their Lessers (that were sold to them as Butters) and produced more of what they thought were Butters. They then sold those Lessers as Butters, and so on, and so on, and so on. If they were in fact slightly different at one time, the waters have been so muddied up over the years that they might as well be called the same dang thing....

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

So how come these two are different? One is a butter calico pastel and the other one is a lesser calico pastel?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y4evygat.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y8a4u6ev.jpg

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Different cameras, different lighting, different age, different Calico genes, different Pastel genes...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

So how come these two are different? One is a butter calico pastel and the other one is a lesser calico pastel?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y4evygat.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/y8a4u6ev.jpg

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They look different due to the quality of the animals used to produce them. Reality check time here. Lesser x het daddy = platty daddy, butter x het daddy = butter daddy. Both are identical in every single except name. Any other BEL complex mutation x het daddy = normals, original morph, and het daddy no combo. That right there says they are the exact same. I could take a high quality lesser and breed it a high quality pastel and take the now high quality pastel lesser and breed it a high quality calico and will produce an animal of equal quality to the pic you posted. Also age plays a big factor in appearance. The second pic looks to be an older animal than the first pic so colors have dulled out a bit.

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Each of you are right in your own way but i'm still looking for a Butter Calico. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Each of you are right in your own way but i'm still looking for a Butter Calico. ;)

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My final words on this...just look for the Butter Calico or Lesser Calico that you like best and don't worry about the label...:D

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Originally Posted by sho220

My final words on this...just look for the Butter Calico or Lesser Calico that you like best and don't worry about the label...:D

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Agreed. It seems like my purchase is going to be based more on looks than the label.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Agreed. It seems like my purchase is going to be based more on looks than the label.

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It's just something to consider...you don't wanna pass up the perfect example of what you're looking for because an ad was listed as such and such with no picture...check them both out and then decide...just my humble opinion...:)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Agreed. It seems like my purchase is going to be based more on looks than the label.

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Just to emphasize what I am saying do me a favor. Google butter calico and then open a new tab and google lesser calico. Compare the great examples of both and the poor examples of both. You will see that they are the same. Yes some butters will have different patterning but the same is true of lesser as well.

Really what I am saying is buy based on the look you want not based on the name because you may very well see 100 lesser calicos that are perfect but you pass because of a name and never see a single butter calico of the same quality and end up with a poor example and regrets.

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Originally Posted by T&CExotics

Google butter calico and then open a new tab and google lesser calico.

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Well the problem is, I cant find just a Butter Calico anywhere. Lol. Everything I find is a Pastel Butter Calico or something else. Can you find a photo of a Butter Calico?

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lol What about a butter sugar then? Calico and sugar are the same thing just like lesser and butter are. Just like any other line of the same morph you can sit there and compare examples all day. You'll find good and bad examples in both lines. I'm not much of an SK axanthic fan just because VPI is more popular (which is why I got into that line since they aren't compatible unless lesser/butter). I've seen some very brown SK as well as VPIs. Heck I saw a super pastel SK axanthic that I did a double take when seeing the tag at the expo. It was so brown I thought it was just a regular dull axanthic. My pastel ax is waaaayyy lighter. Then there amazing SK axanthics that JD Constriction produces. Just saying that there are good and bad examples. The quality of the genes are going to effect the way they look, not the line.

I found a lot of pics of them but for some reason I am unable to link to them. I searched butter calico ball python if that helps any

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

lol What about a butter sugar then?

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haha...love it...:gj:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Well I'll give you guys a good example: I have a bumble bee and I was looking for a butter fire for my bee. Now according to WOBP genetic wizard (its my only source of figuring out what i'd get), if you mix a bee with a butter/fire it will get totally different combos than if you'd mix it with lesser/fire.

That draws me to a conclusion that butters and lessers are not the same thing. I know this isn't the best argument but at least you can see the difference for yourself.

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you need to realize that WOBP gets a lot of things wrong. toffino is a double recessive for them. toffino to normal gives you double-het toffee albino. same with candino. they list the "het daddy" gene as a dominant. it takes 10 minutes to find a new mistake on WOBP, if you know what to look for.

about butter pastel calico looking different from lesser pastel calico.... are you sure it isnt the calico that is to blame? calicos can be high white or low white, just like piebalds, and there is an awful lot of variation even within the same clutch. then we also have pastel in there, you can have low quality pastel and high quality pastel.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/calico-pastel/ <-- a lot of variation. add the same lesser to all of them, there would still be a lot of variation.

the thing with butter and lesser is that we have so many strong indications that they are the same, you can no longer say they are not the same unless you can show how to tell them apart. you need to give people some reason to believe that lesser and butter are different. one thing that is a big indication for me: why do lesser butters get the same eye-issue that super lessers and super butters get? how can that be possible if its not the same morph? the tendency to sometimes have small eyes or bug eyes is something really rare and unique. its a genetic flaw, and its unique to both butters and lessers. that would be a HUGE coincidence if it would be just a coincidence. for me, its convincing, and if you want to get me to believe that lesser and butter are different, you need to come up with something really good. you need something even more convincing.

That makes a lot of sense. It seems like there's a lot of these "double morphs" and its very confusing at times. Actually, it's confusing a lot of the times. Especially when im trying to research new additions to my collection.

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Totally typed in butter sugar and got results...

x2 on buy by the look instead of the title for Sugar/Calico and Lesser/Butter

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

you need to realize that WOBP gets a lot of things wrong. toffino is a double recessive for them. toffino to normal gives you double-het toffee albino. same with candino. they list the "het daddy" gene as a dominant. it takes 10 minutes to find a new mistake on WOBP, if you know what to look for.

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I haven't gone to look, and I'm not saying that wobp doesn't have mistakes (at one time it had a hgw spider combo on there, may still have, that combo is actually a solid white snake that's a lethal or near lethal combination...some do hatch, but die shortly after hatching), but it sounds correct on both of those. The het daddy gene is a form of a dominant gene and is allelic with the bel complex, it just seems to only really show up with the lesser/butter when combined with it and makes a platinum.

Toffino/Candino IS a double het animal, bred to a normal gives you normals that are either het for toffee/candy or albino with no way to know which is which...so the babies are definite hets, with a 50% chance of being one or the other, but they can not be both.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

I haven't gone to look, and I'm not saying that wobp doesn't have mistakes (at one time it had a hgw spider combo on there, may still have, that combo is actually a solid white snake that's a lethal or near lethal combination...some do hatch, but die shortly after hatching), but it sounds correct on both of those. The het daddy gene is a form of a dominant gene and is allelic with the bel complex, it just seems to only really show up with the lesser/butter when combined with it and makes a platinum.

Toffino/Candino IS a double het animal, bred to a normal gives you normals that are either het for toffee/candy or albino with no way to know which is which...so the babies are definite hets, with a 50% chance of being one or the other, but they can not be both.

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super het daddys have been produced from platty daddy x platty daddy breedings, they are quite a bit lighter than normals. so its not a dominant. there are no dominants with a visual and viable super form, thats a contradiction.

and when you breed a toffino to a normal, you do not get double-hets that are 100% het albino 100% het toffee. and when you breed an albino to a toffee, you do not get normal-looking double hets. here WOBP simply denies the fact that these genes are compatible. a breeding of toffino to albino will not give you albinos that are 100% het toffee, these are impossible and cannot exist. a breeding of toffino to toffino will not give you 100% toffinos.

these are obvious mistakes. and they lead to even more obvious mistakes when using their genetic calculator.