Bee project input

I'm a ways off from this happening, but a girl can dream. And plot.

I've been spending a bunch of time looking around and trying to find a focus for a ball python project (because if I don't have a focus I'll just want to get one of everything and I don't see that working out), and I've decided I would love to try and work on some bee morphs. I would love to produce some killer queen bees and experiment with the queen bee morph. I'd like to start with two gene animals (mostly for cost consideration) and work my way up.

I was wondering what your guys input would be on good morphs to kick off the project with would be?

I figured a lesser bee, bumble bee, and a lesser pastel would make a good start.

Add pinstripe somewhere and make Killer Queenspins. That's one of my goals for the future!

I'll be honest and say I'm not very drawn to the pin gene. I'll definitely have to throw in another lesser and see if I can get some BELs though.

Apparently I'm starting this project off right with a 2013 male lesser bee from sho220! Gotta love the locals. :) Thanks, Doug! I can't wait to pick this guy up!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...ps21e9bda9.jpg

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Originally Posted by whatsherface

Apparently I'm starting this project off right with a 2013 male lesser bee from sho220! Gotta love the locals. :) Thanks, Doug! I can't wait to pick this guy up!

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I'm gonna miss him! :tears: But I know he's going to a good home! :D

I love the Spider gene all there combos rock good luck with whatever you decide oh one more thing add some Fire to the mix. Firebee is amazing


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i would suggest: dont get too deep into pastel, instead use more lesser/butter (you want to do that anyway), fire, and enchi. one day maybe orange dream. in multi-gene combos, often pastel is to blame for washing out the pattern too much.

maybe you could consider adding a darkener, like cinnamon or black pastel.

if you dont like pinstripe, then thats it, personally i would add it, in order to produce some spinners, and also because pinstripe interacts so nicely with lesser/butter and mojave. calico/sugar may also be interesting.

Im getting his female clutch mate on Monday! I think were lucky to get such beautiful snakes! Hope we can stay in touch and see how our breeding projects turn out!

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Starting with a lesser bee male, you'd need at least one pastel (or pastel combination) female in order to produce queen bees. Pastel females may be cheap enough to get two. Two females would increase the probability of at least one queen bee baby. A super pastel female would be a better choice, if there are any available at a price you are willing to pay. That would maximize the probability of getting a queen bee from only one female. I would not get a bumblebee female because the lesser bee already has the spider gene. If you want both blue-eyed whites and queen bees from the mating, the female should be a lesser pastel (whatever the trade name is). But the best choice is a lesser super pastel. Again, price and availability will affect what way you go.

The lesser bee male will not sire any killer queen bees. That mix includes super pastel, and both parents must have the pastel gene for any super pastel babies.

Good luck.

Thanks for the great info! I was thinking a pastave or lesser pastel female. Pastave would have a ton of possible outcomes (both a blessing a curse with how small BP clutches are) including BELs and Queen Bees but also a large possibilty of single genes morphs and a small chance of normals. A lesser pastel female would decrease the diversity of potential offspring but would increase chances for morphs that of particular interest to me. Priorities, I guess. I'll be getting more than two imagine snakes for this endeavor, so there's some flexibility haha. It kind of comes down to availability and funds in the end.

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if you breed double-gene to double-gene, and if none of the parents is a super-form or something that acts like a super, you get:

1/16 = 6,25% normals,
1/4 = 25% single-gene morphs,
3/8 = 37.5% double-gene,
1/4 = 25% triple gene,
1/16 = 6,25% the quadruple gene jackpot.

if one has mojave and one has lesser, you get 1/16 single-gene mojave and 1/16 single-gene lesser. if both have lesser, you get 1/8 single-gene lesser. so it gets less complicated, and the list of possible results gets shorter. but overall, your odds are the same.

these odds only change if one of them is a super, or if one of them is a combo like a highway, mystic potion, or lesser + mojave BEL. when its double-gene (super-form or allelic combo) to double-gene, you get:

1/4 single-gene
1/2 double-gene
1/4 triple-gene.

no more normals, also no chance to get a 4-gene combo. and when both parents share a gene, that doesnt matter, the odds only change when one parent contains a super form or one of the allelic combos.

so, for example, pastel enchi to pastel enchi gives you 1/16 normals, 1/16 super pastel super enchi, and so on, just like in the first example. but super pastel to super enchi gives you 100% pastel enchis.

there really isnt much of a difference, in your case, between lesser pastel and pastave. with a pastave, the clutches will be more diverse, but at the same quality level. and if you happen to come across another awesome two-gene combo you didnt consider so far, as long as its a combo that can reproduce itself when bred to a normal, dont worry about the odds, they will be the same.

I had considered the percentages at a quality level, ut at a diversity level, and I definitely need to adjust my thinking a bit haha. Thanks so much for the lesson, I'm still pretty new to the genetics aspect of all this, and I'm so happy to be learning so much!

I’ve decided that I’m going to try and hold out on buying a female until I can find a lesser super pastel.It seems to be the best fit for what I’m hoping to get. I’ll probably keep my eye out for a good male or two to try and mix in some other genes. I went looking around kingsnake.com and some other classifieds sites, but I didn’t see anyone selling lesser super pastels and have no idea what kind of price range I would be looking at. I could just save BELs for later and get a super pastel female, which I see frequently enough, but I would really like to have that lesser gene in play.
Also, I was looking at what I would breed the Queen Bees with to get the Killer Queens, and I’d want to use a super pastel for that as well. I know that some people will breed snakes back to their parents or other relatives, but how does that kind of inbreeding affect the snakes’ genetic health? Should I get a separate female to breeder the offspring to?

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Originally Posted by whatsherface

Also, I was looking at what I would breed the Queen Bees with to get the Killer Queens, and I’d want to use a super pastel for that as well. I know that some people will breed snakes back to their parents or other relatives, but how does that kind of inbreeding affect the snakes’ genetic health? Should I get a separate female to breeder the offspring to?

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I'd get an unrelated super pastel.

Continued inbreeding is not a real good idea. The reptile horror story of that type is the blood red corn snake. It was beautiful, but the line became so inbred that breeding success was poor. As far as I know, the line is extinct. Any "blood red" corn snakes available now are derived from outbreedings from that line.

Anyway, you should have enough babies to sell or swap a few for a new super pastel.

I thought so, but I had seen opinions on either side of the fence, so I thought I should ask. I figure the health of the offspring is worth the cost of another snake. :)

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Originally Posted by whatsherface

I thought so, but I had seen opinions on either side of the fence, so I thought I should ask. I figure the health of the offspring is worth the cost of another snake. :)

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once you actually hatch out little baby snakes, and when you are in contact with other breeders, it will be easy to trade them. or you sell some hatchlings and take some of that money to buy something different. so it should be easy enough to keep the collection genetically diverse and to avoid inbreeding.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

once you actually hatch out little baby snakes, and when you are in contact with other breeders, it will be easy to trade them. or you sell some hatchlings and take some of that money to buy something different. so it should be easy enough to keep the collection genetically diverse and to avoid inbreeding.

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True! There's a show coming up in the area, so hopefully I'll find something there. I found two super pastel lessers online, but they're both a good bit out of my price range (I am not sadly not ready to drop $700 on a snake yet), so I may have to settle for super pastel for now. Maybe by the time I get some hatchlings from the first female, I'll be able to afford a super pastel lesser. :)

So, I've acquired some snakes for my project, and I just thought I would share!

I have Lemon Meringue, a lesser bee boy, and an unnamed Super Pastel girl. He was hatched July '13, and she was hatched Oct '13. It'll be awhile (a long while) before she's up to breeding size, but I figure worse case scenario she can be the lady I use to get my Killer Queens (if I get a male) and I can buy a larger, more mature Super Pastel female for breeding the Queen Bees sooner. I'm also thinking I could breed her to one of my Cinnamon boys and make some Pewters, and then breed those to the other Super Pastel for some Sterling Pewters or to another Cinnamon for some Silver Bullets and a shot at Super Cinnamon. :) So many plans! Grow, my children, grow!

(Sorry about all the charts, but I really love the OWAL genetics wizard.)

Lesserbee x super pastel

Male:	Lesserbee
Female:	Super Pastel
Percent	Fraction	Traits
25%	1/4	Queenbee
25%	1/4	Pastel, Lesser Platinum
25%	1/4	Bumblebee
25%	1/4	Pastel
View Results Page

Queen Bee x super pastel

Male:	Queenbee
Female:	Super Pastel
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Lesser Platinum, Killerbee
12.5%	1/8	Lesser Platinum, Super Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Queenbee
12.5%	1/8	Pastel, Lesser Platinum
12.5%	1/8	Killerbee
12.5%	1/8	Super Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Bumblebee
12.5%	1/8	Pastel
View Results Page

Cinnamon x super pastel

Male:	Cinnamon
Female:	Super Pastel
Percent	Fraction	Traits
50%	1/2	Pewter
50%	1/2	Pastel
View Results Page

pewter x super pastel

Male:	Pewter
Female:	Super Pastel
Percent	Fraction	Traits
25%	1/4	Sterling Pastel
25%	1/4	Super Pastel
25%	1/4	Pewter
25%	1/4	Pastel
View Results Page

Pewter x cinnamon

Male:	Cinnamon
Female:	Pewter
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Silver Bullet
25%	1/4	Pewter
12.5%	1/8	Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Super Cinnamon
25%	1/4	Cinnamon
12.5%	1/8	Normal
View Results Page

What do Killer Queen Bees run for these days?

Well, I've seen QUEENBEE males for as low as $250-300 now. A female QUEENBEE hatchling just sold for $500 in an auction. I bought my Queenbee male at breeding size for $400, and that was a real steal 6 months ago. It's crazy how much the prices have gone down in such a short amount of time.. I'd say a killer queenbee is just at $600-$800 m/f at the most..

EDIT: Just found a Killer Queenbee male on kingsnake.com for $799