Dealing with suspicious breeders

hey guys… i hate to have to post it here… but after months of email exchange with this breeder. I don't know what i should do...

Heres the story

back in august of last year. i was made aware of this beautiful 3 gene male that was hatched out but by the breeder. we exchange emails and settle on a price of 2400$. i pay him a $500 depost at that time. due to my financial situation at the time i was not able to pay it in full, however the breeder allow me to take as long as i want to finish the payment. During this period he has sent me around 2-3 photos of the snake.

fast forward to december of 2013. I have completed the payment, at this time i ask for the snake to be shipped. however the breeder told me that he is afraid to ship because it negative 10 degree where he is and he has had dead snakes when he shipped like this (red flag no1: i have receive snakes by heated cargo through air canada in similar weather and it was fine if it was package properly)

so at this point i give him the benefit of the doubt, and told him i would wait as he did waited patiently for my payment.
One month later, i email him again asking if it is save to shipped. At this time he reply with saying that he is now oversea dude to family emergency. soooo no shipping….

ok I trust him again, during aug to dec while i was making payment to him i had a family emergency too and that led to me not being able to pay the full payment, so i feel like i should give him the benefit of the doubt. At this time he said that he has an assistant watching him snakes while he is away and would tell the assistant to shipped the snake when the weather permits. at this point i ask again for a picture of the snake. He said he will get me picture when he comes back but did not give me solid date on when he will be back home. Here i got a little impatient and press for picture as i know he has a caretaker for the snake. he claims his caretaker does not own a cellphone or a camera. When i press further about when he would be back in town. he wrote me an email basically saying all this shipping delay is my fault, if i had paid way back in aug i would not have this problem and that he would not be back in town unless the weather get hotter. he said since i took 4 months to pay i should at least have the patience to wait the same amount of time.

I was quite furious at this point, but i swallow it alright i pay a lot for this snake, and i have plan to breed it and he is right i did took 4 months to pay. i really want the snake, even though at this point i have way overpay for him, the price for this combo has come down and i have already miss crucial breeding time with my females.

so i waited a full 4 month from when i made the last payment, email him at the beginning of april. Here i appear to have good new, he told me he will be back next thursday (that last week) and that he will shipped immediately when he gets back. i waited for that thursday, no email. waited 2 more days, no email. So i email him back yesterday asking when i will get my snake.

heres what he told me: he came back to his facility and it was a disaster, he had electrical problem and the snake was not heated for 2 weeks, he had many sick and dead snake. he will sort this out and ship me the snake asap.
(red flag: WHERE WAS HIS CARETAKER!!! even if he doesn't know the heat is off, wouldn't he have notice the dead snake?)

at this point i'm very worry, that
1. he will keep on giving me excuse and never shipped the snake and i'm out of my hard earn money
2. he will shipped me a sick snake that either doa or very soon after, blame me for it. our of hard earn money…
3. he will shipped me a different snake than the one i bought…..


at this point i'm not sure if i even want to deal with him anymore. i put my trust in him because he suppose to be a pretty big breeder in his area. I didn't do a check on his feedback and it was not very good… many customer complain about his lying and general bad customer service etc but the health of his animal wasn't really a problem.

I would be happy right now to either get my money back or my snake (alive and healthy of course).

i'm not sure what to do. i give him my address at this point and waiting to see what he tell me about health guarantee at this point. I don't want to expose the breeder yet as this could still end well. however i also have a feeling he would be refund me the money if anything goes wrong.

This is the first time i have pay this much for a snake and i had so much hope breeding it. not this is making me very feeling very shady about snake breeder and breeding in general. at this point i realize.. if all goes wrong, this is no way of getting all or any of my money back…..

please if anybody have been in similar situation, please advice me on what to do?

TL: DR version

pay deposit for snake in aug 2013
complete payment of snake in dec 2013

many excuse from breeder
breeder went on vacation

current:
-breeder back from vacation
-breeder came back to a mess up facility with many dead/sick snakes
-my snake still haven't shipped and its health status unknown
-have not receive updates picture of my snake since dec 2013
-breeder just made another promise to ship asap….

Personally it should matter outing the breeder.
I would like to know who to keep an eye on.
You are not saying anything good or bad, just stating that the transaction is not completed yet.

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Originally Posted by threezero

So i email him back yesterday asking when i will get my snake.

heres what he told me: he came back to his facility and it was a disaster, he had electrical problem and the snake was not heated for 2 weeks, he had many sick and dead snake. he will sort this out and ship me the snake asap.

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That could mean a lot of things. Is the snake you purchased one of the sick ones? If so, it shouldn't be shipped until it's been treated and is healthy - and honestly, I'd QT it for a lot longer than normal in that case which essentially means he won't be breeding this season. So, ASAP could be another month or so if it's sick.

I guess you could try to find someone local to him to go look at the snake and make sure it's healthy before it gets shipped to you, if you can get the seller to agree.

the first thing that is obviously needed to make this right is an update on the condition of your specific snake. that should happen pretty much immediately.

and then it either has to be shipped as soon as the animal can handle it, or you need a full refund.

Get your money back. If you used a credit card, file a complaint. Go to the real BOI over on Fauna and PUT HIS NAME up. That should get you a quick reply.

Who is this guy?

A true shame, it seem money can pervert just about anything. Our beloved hobby has become viewed as a gold mine for some, with some snakes valued in the thousands of dollars its inevitable that some snakes will find their way into the hands of people only in it for the money.

I've never been a fan of acquiring animals over the internet mainly because most of the people I've corresponded with lacked... Let's say enthusiasm sure I don't have a hundred snakes and maybe I don't know what its like to dredge through countless emails dealing with flakes and bull spitters but I know to me my pets are my children they rely on me for their survival and would never think to say things like " how can I possibly know how many times it has shed" or "you shouldn't be asking all these questions if you don't know how to care for them then don't get one" and my personal favorite "these are blowout prices I can't waste my time meeting you halfway, shipping overnight is no different than picking them up in person"

I don't ask questions because I don't know how to care for them, I ask them because I want to know that YOU care about them.

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Ok. Update on the situation

he sent me an email back. The snake I bought it unfournately on of the die ones :(

the boy I bought was a enchi fire yb and it fit in with what I have plan for my 2 females (butter pastel and bumblebee)

he he is offering me 2 solutions right now. He will either sent me a proven breeder male marvel (citrus pastel spectre yb) or I wait till may for his clutch to hatch which according to him will for sure have a enchi fire yb in it.

Notice refund is not one of the option he listed.

Im im a little lost at what to do. On one hand in slightly interested in the marvel as it is more expensive than enchi fire yb. On the other hand I'm not very impress with the resulting double gene animal I might get (spectre spider etc)
i still very much want an enchi fire yb. It seems to be quite hard to find. However I feel like I should have to wait another few months and pay the same price. What do you guys think I should do?

I think you should demand a refund. And if he refuses, contact your credit card company or whatever you used to pay, submit a complaint, stop the payment, etc. You paid for goods/services that he failed to provide. He needs to refund your money at the very least. You need to out this breeder, as the whole situation sounds fraudulent. I would NOT under any circumstances agree to another snake from him, particularly not waiting for one. There is NO guarantee that he could provide you the snake you want, and the likelihood that you would ever see that snake? Slim to none. Do yourself a favor and get your money back, then go find a reputable breeder to get your snake from.

And please let us know who this guys is. I don't want to find myself in the same situation with this guy. =/

Edit: To be honest, your snake probably never existed. That's what it sounds like to me anyways.

Agreed. The snake probably never existed and odds are you will never get a snake from this guy. Get your money back!

For him to be as bold as to say he HAS a clutch the Will produce a 3 gene animal is rather silly he doesn't know the odds

I agree. Get your money back. To not offer a refund is ridiculous and bad business. Because of him you're plans are now set back a year. That's not cool. He needs to make this right especially since you could of bought from someone else and had the breeding season you planned for. Be sure to put this on fauna and contact your bank.

Ask for your money back. But with what you have said already, good luck with that.

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I'm guessing that you did not pay using a credit card or you could have started a chargeback long before now. As it is too much time may have passed to open a dispute, and if the breeder arrived home to find a mess he may not have the cash available to give you a refund.

I would not take the offer on the "guaranteed" three-gene hatchling, no one can guarantee the outcome of a clutch.

I would first ask for a pic of the offered male, to ensure it exists. If it does I would take it as that's likely the best offer you'll ever get from this breeder. Then, either sell the bee and buy an enchi fire female which should be easier to find, or even some other female more suited to the male.

Or if you like the bee, get a male for her and run with two projects...

I am on par with the others. It sounds like this guy was scamming you. I would demand a refund and find a more reputable breeder to work with, or find someone local.

I am sorry that this happened, though. It's messed up.

Refund. Period.....

I would definitely ask for my money back. Sounds way too suspicious for me.

Not your fault the snake died if it even ever existed. Refund, cut and run. Find another breeder, lay hands/eyes on the snake, then buy it.

Please tell us who he is so we all can BOL for this seller.

Ok just as I expected. I ask for a refund and he refused. Blaming me again for my late payment. He said he has 3 clutches hatching and the due date is may 20 or so. If he doesn't hit it he will trade with other breeder or whatever it takes to get me the snake.

Doesnt sound like like he wants to give me the money back :(

and yes did not go thought a credit card, he doesn't accept credit card. Now I know why...

at this point I really just want my money back. Still trying to formulate a response to him. Despite all this I have been keepin my calm from what I see in his past negative feedback he likes to provoke ppl and and use ppl's frustration against them.

Anyways really would value some input on whAt to do here

to be fair I do believe he had the snake he show me an in egg photo of the baby and a freshe shred photo of the same snake. None of that really matters now though...

the breeder in question here is Chris Loukas of Omega Pythons in Toronto

i have copy of our email conversation... I really don't want to start a fight but I really just want my money back now. I think any credible business should offere a refund if something like this happen. He knows how long it took for me to come up with the money and to hold my money indefinitey is really unacceptable.

That's though man! You obviously can't trust anything this guy is telling you. Do you have any kind of paper trail that you paid him money for goods that you didn't receive? I know 2500$ isn't really worth getting a lawyer involved but you may have some ground if you have any proof. He may just need a little push with the law to get him to give you your money back. At this point I don't think you should keep any hopes of getting a snake from him. Personally I wouldn't want one from him even if he had one after all the crap he put you through.

Ok thing is he agreed to the payment plan so he can't use that against you. You have it paid in full. If he cannot provide you with what you paid for then he needs to issue a refund. You might want to take it to the BOI at this point.

He cannot refuse you a refund. He agreed to a payment plan, had no terms that said a refund would not be given, and was expected to give you goods that he has now failed to give you. He has two options. You need to tell him that he either refunds you your money right now, or you will get a lawyer and take him to court. You would win. Hands down. Especially if you have any sort of paper trail (emails, receipt of payment, etc). How did you pay him, if you don't mind my asking? You need to contact whatever institute you used, whether it was a Bank or PayPal, and explain to them what happened. Most of them should work with you.

Pretty sure that him holding your money without rendering the goods paid for is illegal. Just saying.

You do have proof that you paid it all??

I use email transfer for a portion of it and I believe PayPal for some. It's been a while I need to look through my emails.

But it I have email history that show him acknowledging receiving my payment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

and yes did not go thought a credit card, he doesn't accept credit card. Now I know why...

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Hmmm...I found what I believe is their website: http://www.omegapythons.com/index.html And this claims that they DO indeed take credit cards, as well as PayPal and money transfers. (Not trying to say you're wrong - just playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate and trying to see what information this breeder puts online.)

Their website says nothing about the supposed disaster that is supposed to have happened to their breeding facility. Makes me wonder what kind of reply any of us would get if we were to message them about their snakes.

I still stand by what I said before. They should offer you a refund. Not a doubt in my mind.

Also his "collection" lists a Citrus Pastel Spector and a Spector YB Enchi Fire Pastel but nothing on this proven breeder he is offering you either.
Depending on the distance, I would be riding in for collections. :salute:

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Originally Posted by RockNRollProcelain

Hmmm...I found what I believe is their website: http://www.omegapythons.com/index.html And this claims that they DO indeed take credit cards, as well as PayPal and money transfers. (Not trying to say you're wrong - just playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate and trying to see what information this breeder puts online.)

Their website says nothing about the supposed disaster that is supposed to have happened to their breeding facility. Makes me wonder what kind of reply any of us would get if we were to message them about their snakes.

I still stand by what I said before. They should offer you a refund. Not a doubt in my mind.

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Interesting. I may have not even ask about credit card or choose not to use credit card in the beginning. Bad call on my end :(
i did use PayPal. But it's been so long I doubt PayPal would help me in any ways...
and yes no mention on his website!!!!!!!

I have reply him asking for a refund again. Let see where this will take me. Where can I post about this to warn ther ppl and maybe force him to return my money to save his reputation(which is already not very good from what i can gather from google). At this point I'm glad to get any money back.

I would say to definitely post about this on Fauna Classifieds. They have a section about reviewing breeders and such.

As for getting your money back, if you used PayPal for all of the money transactions, call them and explain what happened. You'll never know if they can help you until you talk to them. They do have information about this in their FAQ, with How-To's. I would suggest following these steps with PayPal. This will show the breeder that you are serious, and PayPal will help you fight the battle.:

Items not received or a potential fraudulent seller
If you sent a payment but haven’t received what you paid for, or believe the seller to be fraudulent, you should visit our Resolution Center. We’ve developed several programs to help protect you, and opening a dispute is the first step to help get your problem resolved. Here’s how:

1. Log in to your PayPal account.
2. Click Resolution Center near the top of the page.
3. Click Dispute a Transaction.
4. Select either Item dispute or Unauthorized transaction, depending on the nature of your dispute.
5. Follow the directions.

I remember reading on Fauna paypal won't help with live animal transactions anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Also his "collection" lists a Citrus Pastel Spector and a Spector YB Enchi Fire Pastel but nothing on this proven breeder he is offering you either.
Depending on the distance, I would be riding in for collections. :salute:

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Recieve a reply almost instantly... Here is his most recent reply. I feel seriously insulted as a customer

You paid for a snake you will get a snake...... It took you lots of time and lies to send me the money and I feel that the snake is dead because of your delay to complete out agreement. As I was waiting and feeding your snake for 7 months cause of your inability to find money now you will need to wait for me as well...... It's a 2 way deal and I think it's fair for you to wait.
This is my final decision and there is no point of back and forth
You will get what you paid for sure.
If you don't want to part in good ways it will be your choice cause I feel I'm the loser in this case.


omg what should I do.... He is not going to refund me....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

Recieve a reply almost instantly... Here is his most recent reply. I feel seriously insulted as a customer

You paid for a snake you will get a snake...... It took you lots of time and lies to send me the money and I feel that the snake is dead because of your delay to complete out agreement. As I was waiting and feeding your snake for 7 months cause of your inability to find money now you will need to wait for me as well...... It's a 2 way deal and I think it's fair for you to wait.
This is my final decision and there is no point of back and forth
You will get what you paid for sure.
If you don't want to part in good ways it will be your choice cause I feel I'm the loser in this case.


omg what should I do.... He is not going to refund me....

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Tell him you're taking him to court. You didn't pay for just ANY snake. You paid for a specific morph. If he can't hand you that snake right now, you take him to court. You fight him. Don't take this lying down. This is completely unacceptable. He agreed to the pay plan. If he can't follow through now, that is NOT your fault - that is HIS fault. He knew how long it would take for you to complete the payments, and then HE refused to ship you the snake due to weather. It's not your fault. He owes you your snake, and since he is claiming it is dead, he needs to refund your money. Or you need to take his arrogant self to court and show him that he can't just bully you into letting him take your $2500. That is fraud.

Since there were no specific terms he can't blame you for taking that long, as for him not wanting to issue a refund it is totally unacceptable, not only he has been stalling but now he is not capable to send the animal since it has died. You can't keep the money if you can't ship the exact animal a customer has paid for.

Posting on the BOI is definitely in order, so gather any communication you may have (screen shots of your emails) as well as proof of payment and go and create a thread.

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You paid for a snake you will get a snake...... It took you lots of time and lies to send me the money and I feel that the snake is dead because of your delay to complete out agreement.

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That is the craziest thing I have ever read. You paid for a specific snake and should get that specific snake not just a snake. As for the rest how can a delay cause a snake to die??? Does he stop to care for his animals when they are put on a payment plans.

This guys seems to have some serous ethics issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockNRollProcelain

Items not received or a potential fraudulent seller
If you sent a payment but haven’t received what you paid for, or believe the seller to be fraudulent, you should visit our Resolution Center. We’ve developed several programs to help protect you, and opening a dispute is the first step to help get your problem resolved. Here’s how:

1. Log in to your PayPal account.
2. Click Resolution Center near the top of the page.
3. Click Dispute a Transaction.
4. Select either Item dispute or Unauthorized transaction, depending on the nature of your dispute.
5. Follow the directions.

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Could have been an option however you can only file a claim within 45 days and the transaction occurred between August and December.

After 4 months it would be very hard for anyone to get their money back, even credit card company probably require a complaint to be filed within a certain amount of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

Recieve a reply almost instantly... Here is his most recent reply. I feel seriously insulted as a customer

You paid for a snake you will get a snake...... It took you lots of time and lies to send me the money and I feel that the snake is dead because of your delay to complete out agreement. As I was waiting and feeding your snake for 7 months cause of your inability to find money now you will need to wait for me as well...... It's a 2 way deal and I think it's fair for you to wait.
This is my final decision and there is no point of back and forth
You will get what you paid for sure.
If you don't want to part in good ways it will be your choice cause I feel I'm the loser in this case.


omg what should I do.... He is not going to refund me....

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Small Claims Court action should be fairly cheap to initiate and could recover your cash.
It also provides verifiable public records of issues with a seller that would slam shut a BOI warning others to be more selective in who they deal with.

He is calling me a liar and I know he monitor this thread now.


Just to to put it out the reason I had to delay payment was that my grandpa died in china and I had to go back to china. I have both death certificate and and plan ticket invoice. I was involve in quite a serious car accident when I got back from china for which I have both insurance paper and photo of totalled car to back up.

Please do not accuse me of lying. I was In communication the whole way letting you know what's going on. You on the other hand did not update me and only give me info when I push for it and when the time comes to finally deliver I was greet with "dead snake pleae wait some more"


Chris do post your side. I'm not pointing fingers at anything right now. All I want is an refund which as your customer I should be entitled to after the original snake I pay for has die.

Yeah, with those responses from the seller it's time to take this to the BOI.

Remember there is NO GUARANTEE the next clutch from him will have the morph you want and originally paid for!!!! He cannot control genetic combinations to guarantee anything in offspring....


get your money back!!!!! Report this entire situation to BP.net and BIO on faunaclassifieds so other people dont have to go through what you went through!!!!!

File a complaint with paypal or credit card company! They both allow for disputes regarding failure of delivery of goods and services from merchants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

I use email transfer for a portion of it and I believe PayPal for some. It's been a while I need to look through my emails.

But it I have email history that show him acknowledging receiving my payment

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Paypal allows for disputes!!!!

Also so does banks!!!!

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Small Claims Court action should be fairly cheap to initiate and could recover your cash.
It also provides verifiable public records of issues with a seller that would slam shut a BOI warning others to be more selective in who they deal with.

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In most states in the United States at least the amount in question would raise it OUT of small claims court...

Also paypal will sometimes make exceptions if you are past the 45 day rule if you did not receive anything. I think you have to call them for that though.

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

In most states in the United States at least the amount in question would raise it OUT of small claims court...

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Negative...........$5k and under is usually small claims

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

He is calling me a liar and I know he monitor this thread now.


Just to to put it out the reason I had to delay payment was that my grandpa died in china and I had to go back to china. I have both death certificate and and plan ticket invoice. I was involve in quite a serious car accident when I got back from china for which I have both insurance paper and photo of totalled car to back up.
Please do not accuse me of lying. I was In communication the whole way letting you know what's going on. You on the other hand did not update me and only give me info when I push for it and when the time comes to finally deliver I was greet with "dead snake pleae wait some more"


Chris do post your side. I'm not pointing fingers at anything right now. All I want is an refund which as your customer I should be entitled to after the original snake I pay for has die.

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Not to sound rude BUT I don't care what happened in your life during this time (good or bad). Payments got delayed and Chris still had no problem taking your money rather than breaking off the deal due to breach of contract. If he had a problem with it then he should have dropped you and created a deadbeat buyer thread but as soon as he continued to take payments he renegotiated the contract between the two of you.
I would start the process to take it to court and possibly file a police report for theft just to have it on record with them as well.
Its not going to be easy but trash like this guy needs to be taken out.

He can monitor this thread all he likes, his silence proves he is someone with no character. I hate to see scum in our hobby but its live and mold grows everywhere.

Hate to say it but I third that notion my friend. At this point PLEASE out this breeder ( tell everyone in the community ) who he is or his site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

Where can I post about this to warn ther ppl and maybe force him to return my money to save his reputation(which is already not very good from what i can gather from google). At this point I'm glad to get any money back.

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Based on his existing Fauna rep I wouldn't have sent him $24 never mind $2400.

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Originally Posted by halo12welve

Hate to say it but I third that notion my friend. At this point PLEASE out this breeder ( tell everyone in the community ) who he is or his site.

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That has been done here already.

Unfortunate... I believe this was a scam to begin with. Why would you offer a payment plan with no end date? Meanwhile you are watching the animal depreciate in value and can't sell it to anyone else? If I was a betting man I'd say he either never had the animal, or sold it to someone else while collecting your cash, or is impersonating the Chris @ Omega (not sure why you would impersonate someone with bad rep).

Refund, oust on BOI, tell everyone in the hobby in Canada to keep a watch.

Ok I kind of took a step back. He is not going to give me my money back. Since he is so sure he will hit with his 3 clutch. I'm willing to wait another month for his clutch to hatch given than he will give me written guarantee that he will deliver my animal by a certain time or my money back. If he can't give me that I am gonna start the chargeback and start going through the court process, file police report etc.

Mr Loukas I think this is very fair for you. If you are genuinely going to sent me a snake you should have no problem with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by threezero

Ok I kind of took a step back. He is not going to give me my money back. Since he is so sure he will hit with his 3 clutch

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So there's no guarantee that the animal that you have apparently paid non refundable money for will even exist. This whole situation is brain numbing

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Burning up your time to take it to court.
Very smart on his part.

It may or may not have exist. He send he has picture of the dead snake. Which I request for him
To sent... I have never deal with situation like this but does other legitimate breeders refund customer when something like this happens? What to know if it's the norm of the industry to deny refund and blame customers? This is the first time I have deal with something like this. Usually complaints on a forum get a company attention and they try to make right, I have never encounter situation where complaining means I will not get customer service (according to Chris I have lost this right when I started complaining and outing him)

I had high hopes in breeding bp... Now not so much...