I Feel Horrible...

So after Pythagoras not eating for many months (actually since October 14) we visited the vet.
He has gone without eating before and has always decided on his own when to start eating again but it has never lasted this long.
The vet recommended vitamin injections and a force feeding, and when she said that is what she would do if my snake were hers, I rolled with it. After the force feeding and the massaging to make sure he kept it down the vet tech even commented that his moving forward was a good sign and that if he were going to regurgitate he probably would have done it by now. I pay, I leave, drive home (roughly 20 minutes) and in the time I go open the doors (to the house and to his enclosure) and come back to take him inside I can see the dark stain on the pillowcase. I would say that at least most of the mush they pumped down his throat came back out and there was even a tiny bit of blood mixed in (very, very small hint of red).

I feel terrible that I subjected him to that and I feel even worse that it apparently was all for naught. Of course I'm not happy that I paid over $160 for them to make my snake vomit for the first time in his life either.

Does anyone have any experience with a snake regurgitating a force feed?

I just feel sick right now and there is no way I can do nothing until I call the vet tomorrow morning. I already called the emergency vet but they just said keep an eye on him unless he looks much the worse for wear.

I have never had a vet say force feeding was needed. With that said by you having him force fed and then the regurgitation you may have made matters worse. The only time to every force feed is if there is extreme weight loss. How much weight has he lost? Also you may want to find a new vet.

knowledge is earned not learned

I've had a snake that hasnt been eating since before that...BPs can go months off feed and be fine...

Never had a vet say force feeding is fine either

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

I have never had a vet say force feeding was needed. With that said by you having him force fed and then the regurgitation you may have made matters worse. The only time to every force feed is if there is extreme weight loss. How much weight has he lost? Also you may want to find a new vet.

knowledge is earned not learned

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uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuughghh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The idea didn't sit particularly well with me but she was going on about getting the GI tract restarted because it had been so long and once she said that's what she would do if Pythagoras were her snake I deferred to her judgement.

Avian and Exotic Animal Care in Raleigh, NC.

She didn't say it was necessary, but she left zero doubt in my mind that she thought it was absolutely the best course of action. While there was definite weight loss I wouldn't call it drastic.

How much worse could this have made things?

I already feel torn up inside and like he's never going to trust me again.

EDIT: Also thank you for your reply

It could cause the hunger strike to last a lot longer. Do you have a scale to track his weight?

knowledge is earned not learned

I would find a good gram scale and start monitoring his weight, that way you know for sure how much weight he has lost.

My biggest went off feed right around the same time yours did, (10-25-13) and only recently started eating for me two weeks ago. In that time frame he only lost about 150 grams. Its completely normal for a ball python to go off feed for months, I'm pretty sure we have people on this forum who's snakes have gone 11-14 months without eating.

Personally unless you can notice a drastic change in behavior, and weight in the snake, there is no reason to force feed it anything. To be honest, by force feeding him you could prolong the hunger strike and just make matters worse for yourself.

i'm not qualified to challenge the vet's call on forced feeding, but i find it unusual that the vet did not advise you to leave the snake with them until the food was digested. transporting a snake that has just eaten is a big no no, even if it fed on its own, even more so in your case since it was force fed.....

I do not have a scale at the moment but it has been on my to do list for awhile now honestly. I've never really seen the need for one because even though he has done this before it has never lasted this long and weight loss has never been an issue for me. I wish I had exact figures now, believe me.

Any recommendations on a particular scale or place to obtain one?

Thank you everyone for your help as well as your candor.  I might never forgive myself if I really just allowed myself to be persuaded to prolong my snake's hunger strike. If he goes long enough he can start to experience liver damage can't he?

What do you guys suggest about blood work or other tests which I'd be willing to bet this vet will try to sell me?
Also, can anyone recommend a different vet? I've taken Pythagoras there before but this was the first time they performed anything other than a physical exam. I live in Durham, NC.

Anyone think I have a halfway decent shot at a refund? At least for the force feeding?

I have one (my first) that ate for the first 4 months I had him, packed on a good 400 grams, and has eaten only a handful of times since then (June 2012 was when he stopped!!). He's sitting at about 500 grams and has been that way for almost 2 years. He doesn't gain any weight or lose any weight and will occasionally eat but only occasionally. I took him to the vet for suspected worms last summer (definitely looked like there were parasites in his poop), but all tests came back negative, so I'm just waiting him out. I don't have access to african soft-furs and frankly feeding him gerbils would be idiotic because I know he'll get stuck. Since he isn't losing weight, I'm just waiting him out. He's still alert and not sluggish or looking sick at all, he just won't eat.

Good scales can be found at pretty much any store. You want a digital kitchen scale that weighs in grams (you don't need anything too hefty, I wouldn't bother with one that can handle much more than 10 pounds unless you get a good deal). Other than that, it's all up to choice.

I wouldn't bother with taking your snake back, though I would definintely talk to them about the regurge. First, force-feeding was unnecessary and may have just significantly prolonged the issue, and two, regurges cause major upheavals in the snake's digestive system.

Don't take the snake back. Give him a few weeks (two at least) to settle in, recover from the regurge, start offering slightly undersize live rats or mice (slightly thinner than the widest part of your snake). Offer once every two or three weeks and just be patient. Patience is the most important thing with snakes that aren't eating, especially ball pythons. They go off of strikes for apparently no reason.

Double-check your husbandry, give your snake time to settle in, and be patient. Don't force-feed again and monitor his weight. If he starts dropping weight rapidly, then something is wrong with his habitat or his health, but if it stays mostly the same, it's a self-induced fast and it should be waited out.

You can get a scale at Walmart for less than $20, hind sight is always 20/20.

How old is your snake or how long have you had him?
I personally would find a new vet............................

I have a male spider that eats a couple medium rats a year, he has a +/- 200 gram fluctuation.

Thank you to everyone taking their time to share with me.

I will definitely not be doing another force feeding. How can I modify my method of searching for another vet? I keep seeing this Avian and Exotic Animal Care place pop up and it looks like everyone else does dogs and cats with the occasional horse thrown in.

I have had this snake for 12-13 years, and when I got him he was already matured. The girl I got him from had him since middle school I think and was moving either because she had finished college or finished her graduate degree. She was unsure how old he was when she got him (as a present).

I see a lot of how wrong I was in this thread (and please keep telling me that I don't ever want to forget it) and how my choice quite possibly will cause harm to my snake and will likely prolong his going off feed.
Without raising any false hope or anything like that, is there a chance that my Pythagoras will sort of take this in stride and bounce back from a bad visit to the doctor? Or is it a virtual certainty that I have done more harm than good and physically and mentally harmed my snake both now and in the future as a result of my choice?

Obviously a regurge is a very serious issue, but I also think you shouldn't beat yourself up too much about it. The vet - the EXOTIC vet - told you to do something, and you did what they instructed. Normally, health care providers should be giving sound advice. That is their job. Unfortunately, and especially with exotic pets, this isn't always the case. It happens, as unfortunate as it is.
I think next time you'll have to go with your gut instincts, since they seem to be more well adjusted than that vet's advice.

See if you can find some Nutribac, and a regurge protocol on this forum somewhere (if not there is a very well written one on cornsnakes.com).

Everyone is giving you good advice here, but some of it is kind of just redundant at this point. Do the regurge protocol, let your snake rest for awhile (a long while...), give yourself a break - however you need to do that - be patient, and relax.
You can only do so much.

Best of luck. :)

I actually have the regurge protocol from cornsnakes.com saved and uploaded :)
http://www.sugardoodle.com/snakes/regurg-protocol.html

This is written for corn snakes, but works well for any species. Instead of going down to pinkies, just go like 1-2 sizes down on the prey you're currently feeding.
I don't think regurges are nearly as big of a deal for adults BP as they are for baby corn snakes, buy I'm sure you don't want it to happen again.

Dovah is on a strike right now. I'm not too worried, he's his same old goofy self so I'm just offering food every 1-1/2 weeks until he finally decides to take it :)

You need a new Vet. Force feeding an adult BP is a zero sum gain. And while all that hooey about restarting the GI tract sounds like science, it actually reeks of the odor produced when the GI tract is in full effect...

Again, thank you to everyone for your contributions.

Assuming I can't get Pythagoras to start eating on his own again, it looks to me like the next step would be to go back to the vet for blood work and/or x-rays to determine whether there is something wrong with him.

Would there be any intermediate steps that you might suggest before I go back for tests/diagnostics such as these?

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Originally Posted by Havalian

Again, thank you to everyone for your contributions.

Assuming I can't get Pythagoras to start eating on his own again, it looks to me like the next step would be to go back to the vet for blood work and/or x-rays to determine whether there is something wrong with him.

Would there be any intermediate steps that you might suggest before I go back for tests/diagnostics such as these?

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I don't know why you'd want to do any of that. That vet gave you bad advice; why would you want to go back? I certainly wouldn't. What, exactly, are you thinking is wrong? He stopped eating and then regurged because he was force-fed then stressed from traveling in a vehicle. That seems pretty straight-forward to me (of course it could be something more, but I'd go with the simplest and most logical assumption myself).

Personally I'd hold off on any more stress, like vet trips unless absolutely necessary. Mind you I don't have experience with illnesses and whatnot, but I personally would just do the regurge protocol and leave it alone to see what happens.

I agree with NH, why would you want to take him back to the vet? Let alone the vet that gave you horrible advice, and may have caused more harm than good.

Its been roughly 6 months since he hasn't eaten. But you don't have a scale or anything to actually measure his weight loss. Without really knowing how much weight he has lost, you really do not know if he is sick.

Ball Pythons often go on a hunger strike this time of year as it is known as their breeding season.

I really, really would not take him back to the vet. Especially THAT vet, not at least until you can start recording just how much weight he is losing. Personally I would just leave him alone, and try feeding him once a week, or once every other week.

I wouldn't feel too bad about the situation. I can see why you'd believe that the vet had the best idea.

A lot of snakes will go on hunger strikes. My gtp is on one right now. It's just the time of the year.

The best idea is to monitor their weight. As long as your snake is not losing weight substantially, it is fine. A few grams a month is really nothing to be worried about.

Since he has regurged, I suggest leaving him alone for a few weeks. No handling, no offered feedings. Just keep his house clean and his water dish fresh. After a few weeks you can offer a smaller meal and see if he takes it. If you offer him food right away, he will most likely throw it up due to his stomach being all wonky.

When my snakes are on a hunger strike, I don't offer as much as I would if they were regularly eating. Instead of every week, maybe offer every 2 weeks. You can usually tell when they're hungry, because they'll be a lot more active and moving around.


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My male YB went on strike beginning of December. I kept trying every week and weighed him every week so I knew how much he lost. He only lost about 40gr but for a yearling that weighed 470 gr when I got him I was starting to get a little concerned. I finally got him to eat a live weanling rat. It was small but it was something. Don't beat yourself up for listening to the vet. This vet probably isn't well versed in handling snakes and food strikes. If it was me I would have done the same thing. I wish I could wave a magic wand and get yours to eat. I wish you all the luck to get him to eat after he recovers from a vets mishandling.

She actually has the highest level of board certification that can be had in this country, which puts her on a pretty short list. I've shared my snake's condition and story with a few other vets and they all said pretty much the same thing, which I will admit tripped me out.

I don't know if I need to be explicit about this, but the "force feeding" was a syringe of mush stuck down his gullet, NOT a small prey item poked down his throat. It seems the terms are sometimes used interchangeably though they are different procedures. My snake was tube fed.

One reason I think that these diagnostics may be necessary is the age of my snake. He was probably 10-12 when I got him and I've had him 10 or 11. It is conceivable that he could develop health problems due to his age. I plan to wait and see if he will eat. The good news is that since putting him back in his enclosure he has been in all 3 hides and when I lift them up to see what's going on he looks alert and has his head up (not curled up with his head just resting on his coils) which is the position he had been in the last several times I offered food before he proceeded to show no interest in it.

Tube feeding IS forcefeeding. Their bodies aren't made for a liquid diet, and it shouldn't even be an option for reptiles. Forcing a tube down their throat (or any prey) will pretty much always do more harm than good. There are exceptions to this rule, as there are with everything, but honestly, I would like to know the name of this vet, to avoid ever having to deal with her. Force feeding a snake that has only been off feed for 6 months is very counterproductive, and any board-certified reptile specialist should know that.

I don't blame you for what happened with your baby, but I would look at you differently if you chose to go back to a vet that caused your snake to regurgitate its entire GI system and all of the gut flora that allows it to digest on its own, should it decide it wants a meal next week.

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Originally Posted by Archimedes

Force feeding a snake that has only been off feed for 6 months is very counterproductive, and any board-certified reptile specialist should know that.

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No, any snake that has eaten on its own shouldn't be force fed.
There is a reason they don't eat and at that age 6 months is nothing.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

No, any snake that has eaten on its own shouldn't be force fed.
There is a reason they don't eat and at that age 6 months is nothing.

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Ah yeah, thanks for that correction Pit.

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