A question about color / contrast retention

I will be shopping for my first BP at an expo this weekend and although I've done a lot of research (and bugged the heck out of you guys with questions) I am still unsure on the issue of color/ contrast retention as a BP ages. Because I will be shopping for my first BP, I plan to get the best looking female I can find in my budget and because I have several morphs that I would like to own, this leaves me with a wide range of options (cinnamon, black pastel, mojave, butter, and enchi).

I know what to look for when picking most morphs as babies(i.e. reduced pattern, blushing, etc.), but am unsure on which morphs retain the best color / contrast as they age. I know color varies a lot from individual to individual, but do any of the morphs I listed retain better contrast or color as a whole, or is there something in particular to look for that will signal this?

Thanks again for your time and help!

Out of what you listed lesser/butter is my personal favorite, they get better and better with age. Pick a light bright girl with high flames. My second choice would be a mojo.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

I will be shopping for my first BP at an expo this weekend and although I've done a lot of research (and bugged the heck out of you guys with questions) I am still unsure on the issue of color/ contrast retention as a BP ages. Because I will be shopping for my first BP, I plan to get the best looking female I can find in my budget and because I have several morphs that I would like to own, this leaves me with a wide range of options (cinnamon, black pastel, mojave, butter, and enchi).

I know what to look for when picking most morphs as babies(i.e. reduced pattern, blushing, etc.), but am unsure on which morphs retain the best color / contrast as they age. I know color varies a lot from individual to individual, but do any of the morphs I listed retain better contrast or color as a whole, or is there something in particular to look for that will signal this?

Thanks again for your time and help!

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i think these are good choices. pastels degrade, axanthics degrade. but the ones you mention are not known for that. one you should add to your list is fire. or maybe a recessive, albinos definitively hold their color, and pieds hold their pattern. generally, pattern morphs (pinstripe, spider, clown, pied, and so on) do not degrade with age, the pattern stays, so this is mainly about color morphs.

whats your price range?

Thanks for your input!
kylearmbar- I do like butters / lessers and my husband has a thing for the "alien heads" on mojos, so that's a distinct possibility.

pythonfriend- I want to stay around $200.. I can go as high as $250, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay that much unless I find a 2 gene female. Because this is my first BP, I'd prefer to "get my feet wet" on a slightly less expensive morph. I was considering fires as well, but I know they (and enchis) can be hard to get for what I want to spend. I was also considering pinstripes, but don't like many of the genetic combos they make, so I'm unsure if one would be a good investment (I am not certain that I want to breed yet, but I want to pick animals that would work in a breeding program just in case). Although I like the looks and combos of spiders, wobbling scares me off of them..especially as my first ball.

I would LOVE a pied, clown, or calico, but again, I don't believe they would be available at my price range.

Thanks for your input guys, I really appreciate it!

*edit* sorry about the weird ",i" post title.. odd place for a typo, but I can't fix it.

I would say lessers/butters would be a safe bet, but it can be hard to find ones that hold their color well. Here are photos of two babies I produced last season and their dad. These are RDR line lessers (1st and 2nd generation) and I haven't seen many that hold their color (and actually get better) as they age.

Dad at 900 grams
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/uvupapum.jpg

Two of the babies. They were both holdbacks, but we just recently sold the one with the striping.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/ymezute9.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/2e8yvuzy.jpg

Our keeper in shed
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/6etumaty.jpg

Freshly shed
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/6u7yty8a.jpg

I just got one like yours. Your baby is beautiful.:taz:

I will chime in a bit here.

With your price point, you will have a smaller selection to choose from, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would much rather pick a outstanding example of a single gene, than a mediocre example of a two gene.

Cinnamons are one morph that only gets better with age. My little girl cinnamon was stunning as a baby, but now that she's nearly breeding age she is unreal. Fires are the same way. Really high quality babies are few and far between, but when you find one they are worth their weight in gold. Enchi is another one. Most of the babies you see will be middling at best, but find a really stellar example and they just get better and better. Black Pastels can be a little trickier. I like deep black babies with really orange markings and lots of "squiggles". I'm still looking for the black pastel I will add to my collection.

Mojaves are another one. But they are also subject to great variation. Most will be dark as babies, then they turn chocolate brown as adults. I personally don't care for that. I want mine to stay deep black and bright yellow. Fortunately for me, I stumbled onto a magnificent 300 gram female who was still black, and I snatched her up. She stayed black, and now everyone wants her because she's so unusual. Thus far, her babies stay mostly black as well, which I love. I had several people comment on the two I had at the last show, how sharp the contrast on them was. Which is exactly what I was breeding for.

Yellowbellies are another one that can surprise you. Most of the time, the babies don't look like much, but if you can find a really great example, they are beautiful. And they do some really crazy things in combos. Vanilla is another good gene, but hard to find. Like fires, they are fantastic for combos. Most of the time, the few babies you see will look a lot like a normal. In a word, unimpressive. But find a good baby and WOW. And then as they mature, they are so beautiful. My breeder male makes me smile every time I open his tub.

I wish you all the best in your quest.

Gale

i think you cannot go wrong with the BEL gene complex, that means butter/lesser and mojave, and also with fire. also you cannot go wrong with pattern morphs, you say you dont want a wobble, so how about pinstripe. enchi is (at least for breeders and in combos) always rewarding.

within your price range, and with your demand that they need to get better with age, or at least stay the same, i think its down to BEL genes (butter or lesser or mojave) and fire.

Thanks so much again for all the advice and the pics! Based on what everyone's said, I'll probably stick to: lessers/butters, pins, fire, cinnamons, and pins... That said, who knows what I might find at the show.

marissa- Do you think that butters with more yellows as babies would hold their color better, or does that matter? I wish that I could see pics of parents, but because I will be buying at a show, I don't think that's possible, so I'll only have looks to go on..Your male and the babies look great btw!

Gale- I tend to prefer cinnamons over black pastels, but in previous posts, had read that black pastels are more favored for combos, hence why I was considering them... Do you have any tips on what to look for in a good cinnamon (especially traits that would improve with age)?

Pythonfriend- If I found an awesome looking fire, I'd probably take it over the others, just due to it's genetic value and because they tend to lighten as they get older..But again, I'm thinking my odds of finding a great example at a show are slim, so I will probably end up with one of the other morphs you mentioned.

Thanks again everyone for your help and time. Although I've had snakes for a year now, I feel like such a newbie when it comes to BPs and buying snakes (especially from shows). I will, of course, post pics of whatever I end up bringing home. :D

I completely agree about lessers; they are one of my favourite color morphs. I still maintain that wild-type ball pythons look fantastic, and they age well. They are so under-rated.

Best of luck to finding a nice snake. Take your time, and being picky is never a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

Pythonfriend- If I found an awesome looking fire, I'd probably take it over the others, just due to it's genetic value and because they tend to lighten as they get older..But again, I'm thinking my odds of finding a great example at a show are slim, so I will probably end up with one of the other morphs you mentioned.
:D

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you could just take it slow, and to be clear, you are looking for a female :) dont rush it, make sure you buy something good.

I'm going to cast my vote for the lesser/butter, I have a small collection a spider, lesser, and a pastel, those are my girls. By far my favorite is my lesser, http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/ma7y2yju.jpg
And here's another at about 400ish grams!http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/jary8u4a.jpg
When I get home I'll take a few updated pics for she's at about 700 grams now and just absolutely stunning!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm going to vote enchi. It makes everything better, and goes with everything. I have both enchi and butter/lesser, but really love everything enchi touches.

Thanks again for the replies!
pythonfriend- Yes, definitely getting a female and I will come home with *something* from the show. If I don't find any BPs up to my standards I could always pick up a gecko or a boa. Because we have to travel a couple hours to get to a show I always feel the need to make the trip "worth it" in terms of gas, etc. by taking home an animal. It's not a necessity, just makes me feel better about the cost of the trip.

Creatism- That is a great looking lesser! I love that she had kept her yellow tones in the second pic.

Doolittle- I like enchi combos too, but do enchis tend to look good on their own? I've seen very few pics of enchis that had a lot of orange on them..Most, to me, look similar to a normal, but again I'm not even close to an expert and haven't seen many pics of adult enchis. I hope that I'll be breeding in the future, but if that doesn't happen, I'd like to have animals that could be great looking pets as well. :)

Thanks again everyone for your time and help! No matter what happens at the show, I might end up contacting some of you for animals in the future (those that said they had/bred good examples of the morphs I'm interested in).. It's always great to find out who breeds what.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

I am still unsure on the issue of color/ contrast retention as a BP ages. Because I will be shopping for my first BP, I plan to get the best looking female I can find in my budget and because I have several morphs that I would like to own, this leaves me with a wide range of options (cinnamon, black pastel, mojave, butter, and enchi).

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I would suggest looking at older animals so you can see how the animal's color has changed already. If there aren't any that catch your eye, note of the youngsters that you like, get the breeder's contact info, and ask for pics of the sire/dam after the expo so you have an idea of how the baby will turn out in a few years. Then you can make an informed purchase later.

As an example, enchis can brown out over time, so if the enchi parent is very dark you may want to pass on the baby if your goal is to make bright enchis.

When I went shopping for my cinnamon girl, I knew exactly what I wanted her to look like. I wanted her to be a rich shade of milk chocolate brown, not blackish. I wanted her to have bright cream/tan markings, although every now and then you find a baby that has orange markings. I wanted her to have a lot of blushing on her back, the more the better. I also wanted big belly flames, and as many "floating alien heads" as possible.

I found many cinnamons at the shows, many cinnamons. But none that looked like what I wanted. They were the wrong color, or had no blushing. They lacked flames, or the pattern was not good. When I finally found a show with some really good cinnamons, every one was male. Every. Last. One. It was very frustrating. I was about to give up in despair, when I passed the table of a vendor who was late getting to the show. I noticed one of his display cases was labeled with a cinnamon male and female, but there were no snakes in it. So I waited around, and sure enough he unpacked the male. The male was magnificent, everything a cinnamon should be. But of course, it was a male. Then I saw he was unpacking a second snake, and he was going to put it in the slot marked for the cinnamon female. I asked to see her, before he even had a chance to put her on display. She was unbelievable. Rich chocolate brown body, bright cream markings, huge belly flames, and she was blushed from her head to her tail. Just one continuous streak of red blushing. I nearly swooned. I asked how much she was, because I knew she would not come cheap. He replied he wanted $350 for her, which was exactly what I had set aside to buy my female cinnamon. You better believe she became mine, no way was I letting a once in a lifetime cinny like her get away from me. And the bigger she got the more beautiful she got.

This is her at around 5 months old:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...akes/Kuri3.jpg

And this is her at around 22 months:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Kurinew.jpg

She's a little over 3 years old now. I hope to get some babies from her this year.

Gale

Thanks for your replies!
bcr229- I will consider what you said... I have tried looking up many of the breeders that will be at the show and most do not have websites to view breeding stock / collections. I will definitely consider asking breeders for pics of adults and to email me later with additional information. Although I'd love to pick up something at the show, but will be collecting info and pics in case that doesn't happen.

Gale- She is a great looking cinnamon! If I don't find one at the show, I may contact you about said babies you're expecting :) Although I don't specifically have my heart set on a cinnamon at this point, I do want one in my collection, so I will keep you in mind when the time comes.

Thanks again everyone for your advice! The show is tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

bcr229- I will consider what you said... I have tried looking up many of the breeders that will be at the show and most do not have websites to view breeding stock / collections. I will definitely consider asking breeders for pics of adults and to email me later with additional information. Although I'd love to pick up something at the show, but will be collecting info and pics in case that doesn't happen.

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Cool. A lot of breeders don't have the technical knowlege to set up nice web sites, and while FB is useful for marketing, a lot of people don't use it.

My point was not to go to the expo determined to buy a snake, but to go in determined to shop for the right snake - even if that means the actual transaction occurs in the future.

And Gail... that cinny is smoking! She was well worth the wait and I'm sure she'll throw some impressive babies.

Thanks for clarifying your point bcr229. Although I'd like to get something at the show, if I don't see any stunning examples of BP morphs at the show, I'll do as you advise take pics, business cards, and ask for them to email parents pics, etc. and bide my time. I can always pick up a gecko or some other herp while there and purchase the BP later.

Wanted to let you guys know that we went to the show this morning and ended up bringing a female BP home. It was a tough choice... I almost got a female cinnamon from a small breeder (she had great flames and blushing), but I went with a female pastave instead.. I liked both equally, but my husband wanted the pastave more, and I found it hard to believe that we could afford a 2-gene female, much less what I"d consider a good example (not stellar, but I thought her colors were light, good blushing with dark outlines, good light yellows, and interesting pattern).

I will post up more pics of her in the BP photos sub-forum, but here's one of the better ones... She didn't want to un-ball, but when she did, she wanted to move so pardon the loss of focus.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/DSCN2667.jpg

Thanks again to everyone who helped me out! If I had the funds with me, I would have purchased both the cinnamon and pastave... There weren't many good examples of the other morphs we talked about there, but I felt that I did pretty well.. and you guys' advice was invaluable and much appreciated!