Double Feeding....

Tonight I gave my 5.5 month old 2 adult mice, pre- kill ( she turns down f/t ). She took it very well, as quick as the first. The reason I tryed this is that I'm having a hard time finding smaller rats, I can almost always find average size rats. My quesion is, can I keep doing this until I'am able to find small rats or until she is ready for the larger rats? It did leave her with one heck of a buldge, but I really don't think she is satisfied with one adult mouse, she takes it way to easy.
Need Advice...Thanks!

It is better on their digestion to feed multiple smaller prey as opposed to a single large prey item. So you are fine. :)

you know, i have heard opinions go both ways on this--some say it is better to feed multiple small prey items and some say it is better to feed one large prey item. so what really is the difference, and whichever is your opinion, why do you feel that way?

Well, the way I figure it is this....
In the wild, is the Ball going to have the luxury of crawling around picking out its food? Does it know that there will always be food available next week? Nah. It's more likely to pick the biggest prey it can find, and chow down before food becomes scarce. It emulates more the natural activity of the snake to feed one large prey item.
-HOWEVER-
Just because it happens in nature doesn't mean it's the best. Feeding several small prey items can ensure you don't over-feed your snake, can produce less risk of intestinal blockage, and can be digested faster. If your snake looks hungry still after feeding, you can always just pop in another pinkie to tide him/her over.

I personally feed one large item, because the stress of swallowing another item while Roo is already stuffed full with hammie/mouse/rat seems kinda superfluous. I will also occasionally shift her feeding days one or two days backwards if the last meal was particularly big, because in the wild she wouldn't have been getting feed every 7 days on the dot. ;) I am also extremely careful about holding my snakes after they've eaten. Most people give them 2 days, while I give them 3 as a general rule. Neither of my girls are big on soaking, so after they've had a chance to digest their food I try to give them a quick warm dip in a bath to loosen any blockages up.

Like mlededee said, everyone is different, but based on what I've heard and know of animal behavior and nutrition, I prefer one larger item to several small.

Actually, it's not unusual for balls in the wild to slither down into a rodent burrow and eat all the residents it can, then not eat for weeks afterward. There are legitimate points on both sides of the single vs. mutiple prey controversy.

I guess then it all depends on how regular you want to feed and how fastyou want your kids to grow.

ok this may be a really stupid question but in the world is a hammie? i heard people say it several times and i just can't figure it out.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

you know, i have heard opinions go both ways on this--some say it is better to feed multiple small prey items and some say it is better to feed one large prey item. so what really is the difference, and whichever is your opinion, why do you feel that way?

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The reasoning is that they are able to digest them faster/easier and is less taxing on their body - I think it has something to do with less surface area? I can't recall, but I posed the question as to which is better to 5 exotic/reptile vets and they all agreed. I'll try to find out the specifics.

that would be awesome if you can get specifics--it's something i've been curious about for a while. thanks Tigergenesis! :D

Marla is right, there are legitimate points on both sides of the matter. I say it is fine until you can move up.

I like one larger prey item simply because larger prey items have a more developed skeletal structure, hence provide more calcium, then the small.

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Originally Posted by UberAlice

Well, the way I figure it is this....
In the wild, is the Ball going to have the luxury of crawling around picking out its food? Does it know that there will always be food available next week? Nah. It's more likely to pick the biggest prey it can find, and chow down before food becomes scarce. It emulates more the natural activity of the snake to feed one large prey item.

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I agree they don't have the luxury of picking out it's own food and that they don't know when their next meal is - that being said, they are opportunistic feeders and will take what they can get (big or small), because as you said they don't have the luxury of being picky. So, no, they are not going to always get one large prey item. Their meal could easily consist of a family of mice found in a burrow. It's not a natural emulation of what would happen in the wild if they are feed a single prey item.

What is most natural is a varied diet (size and number of prey) and a varied schedule (not every 7 days on the dot for example). For the most part I vary the number of days between feedings and the number of items fed. Well, to be honest my bp does that for me. Sometimes he'll take 3, sometimes 2 or one or none.

But in the wild they'll take what they can get - be it one or six, or big or small. They're not really going to keep passing up meals because they think they can find something bigger...eventually.

My $.03 :D

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Originally Posted by normballpython2

ok this may be a really stupid question but in the world is a hammie? i heard people say it several times and i just can't figure it out.

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Hamster. :D

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The reasoning is that they are able to digest them faster/easier and is less taxing on their body - I think it has something to do with less surface area? I can't recall, but I posed the question as to which is better to 5 exotic/reptile vets and they all agreed. I'll try to find out the specifics.

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You would think that one larger prey item would have less surface area then two smaller items... Larger items are more developed, which may be why they are harder to digest. Not quite as fatty and have more developed bones.

I guess its all what you are going for. If you want more calcium, go one large, if you want to be easier on the digestion, go two small.

Okay, I found some of my notes (but I'll still see if I can get a 'quote' from one of the vets).

Let me preface this by saying I'm not trying to push my beliefs down anyone's throat or start any kind of argument. I'm just sharing my beliefs and thoughts on the matter. There are many issues that us herpers can't seem to agree on in the hobby, but it's always nice to know that we can discuss and share with eachother in a civilized manner.

Okay, here's what I have in my notes (silly me didn't document where I got it from...most likely from a similar discussion on another forum):

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Snakes (the overwhelming majority of snakes anyway) don't chew and there is kinda minimal peristalisis, digestion is predominantly an enzyme action. Prey is digested from the outside in and the rate of digestion will depend on the surface area of the prey. More prey items of less mass per item equals greater surface area and quicker more efficient digestion. Since quicker digestion would mean less of the prey mass remains untouched by digestive fluids, a greater amount of nutrients are actually absorbed. More numerous smaller prey items will be more completely digested, result in more nutrients absorbed and the offshoot of this is a stronger growth rate. Some larger single prey items will not be fully digested, they pass through the digestive system and are expelled as feces before the digestive process has gotten to the center or some of the denser tissues.

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Originally Posted by Tigergenesis

Let me preface this by saying I'm not trying to push my beliefs down anyone's throat or start any kind of argument. I'm just sharing my beliefs and thoughts on the matter. There are many issues that us herpers can't seem to agree on in the hobby, but it's always nice to know that we can discuss and share with eachother in a civilized manner.

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not to worry. :) i asked for your opinions. i think it's an interesting topic and i wanted to start some good discussion on it that i could learn from. luckily this is one of the few forums where we can do that without errupting into a big argument. 8)

it will be the thumb wars saga all over again.................anyway my opinion is one big meal for the sme reason as green man and also i have heard of larger prey prey giving offmore body heat which i t=hink is pretty ideal for a bp.

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Originally Posted by normballpython2

it will be the thumb wars saga all over again.................anyway my opinion is one big meal for the sme reason as green man and also i have heard of larger prey prey giving offmore body heat which i t=hink is pretty ideal for a bp.

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No wars :)

That's interesting considering their body temp is the same (on average) regardless of size - just a bigger item.

:)

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Originally Posted by green_man

Marla is right, there are legitimate points on both sides of the matter. I say it is fine until you can move up.

I like one larger prey item simply because larger prey items have a more developed skeletal structure, hence provide more calcium, then the small.

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Interesting...now I'm wondering...isn't it possible that 2 smaller items with less individual amounts of calcium can have a combined total amount of calcium close to, equal to or even perhaps greater than 1 larger item? Just throwing that one out there - I have no idea. I just don't want to clean the house so I'm procrastinating by staying on the computer. That and it's nice to have some actual thought provoking discussions sometimes. :)

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isn't it possible that 2 smaller items with less individual amounts of calcium can have a combined total amount of calcium close to, equal to or even perhaps greater than 1 larger item?

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I would guess it depends on the size of prey we are talking. One hopper is probably going to have more calcium the two pinkies, but two smaller mice probably have more then one large mouse. Age is a definate factor there...

yeah if they aren't weaned yet then they don't have as much calcium in their bones. so then i guess 2 small adult mice would be better than a weanling rat or even two... i'm gonna have to do some thinking about this. i thought one bigger item was better but some of tigergenesis's thoughts are making me think perhaps not...

*insert tail between legs*
I had asked the same question of a herp vet a few years back, and my explanation was the one that had been given to me; that the more prey items, the more stress placed upon the digestive system.
But I guess I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by UberAlice

*insert tail between legs*
I had asked the same question of a herp vet a few years back, and my explanation was the one that had been given to me; that the more prey items, the more stress placed upon the digestive system.
But I guess I was wrong.

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I hope you don't have a tail! :lol:

It could very well be that was the thinking then. Luckily, as time goes on more information is coming out on herps.

WOW!! I'd just like to thank everyone who responed to my quesion. I guess in the end it's all up to the keeper. I would really love to try my girl on small rats but I just can't get a hold of any. As long as she will take it I think I will be giving her 2 p/k adult mice until she is ready for average rats. She did seem alot more happy with 2 in her belly, didn't give me that " I'm still hungry look " lol......Thanks again Guy's.

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Originally Posted by tman

WOW!! I'd just like to thank everyone who responed to my quesion. I guess in the end it's all up to the keeper. I would really love to try my girl on small rats but I just can't get a hold of any. As long as she will take it I think I will be giving her 2 p/k adult mice until she is ready for average rats. She did seem a lot more happy with 2 in her belly, didn't give me that " I'm still hungry look " lol......Thanks again Guy's.

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LOL. You are right - it is up to the keeper and what you feel is best and are more comfortable with. Just like everything else in life there are many ways of thinking on all topics. :)

i feed one nice big meal a week and ive never had a prob uber,you have fed your snakes hamsters ?? man i wish i could do that,i have a really stupid hamster that bites and i cant sell it or even give it away !! haha you want him ? ;)

My hammies are f/t, I reserve them for special cases. It took a f/t hammie to get Vash out of a feed strike after she was offered f/t rats, mice, rat pups and a p/k rat pup. Roo broke her first feed strike with a f/t hammie. It's not what I usually feed them. :)
You could just p/k the hammie and try it on your ball as a treat, Brandon, my girls never had an issue taking one before. I don't think they're as nutritious as a rat, though, so I wouldn't make it an every-feeding thing.

ahh my mom wont let me kill it though,oh well maybe if i find somebody who wants it as a feeder ill give it to them and tell my mom they wanted it as a pet ;)

its a dwarf hamster,you can feed those ?

I fed a dwarf hammie once when Roo was a hatchling, it was p/k though.

do they get addicted to them like they do gerbils ??

Nah, Roo took a rat on Sunday no problem, I just don't feed more than one hammie/gerbil in a row. Vash took one about a week ago, but she's going right back on rats tomorrow. ;)

hmm its tempting,very tempting,i could....whack it and put it back in its cage and be like Mom Mom !! the hamster died,and then id be like ohh well lets not let a good hamster go to waste now...........haha but there is no way she would let me feed it and then i would feel bad killin the thing for no reason,i think ill just let it live out its little life

Dwarf hams are EVIL.

heck ya they are !!! mine is !! i hate him/her it used to have a name but i forgot it when i got my snake lol.....like seriously i have no clue what i named it,the hamster was an impulse buy i must admit i was just sittin there and i was like hey i have some money ill go buy somthing at the pet store so i picked up two baby dwarf hamsters,ive had them now for like a year and a half,one of them died already,they usually only live to be about two.But when i had a hamster that i actually liked becuase i could play with it she lived to be three years old,she only had three legs becuase one night she escaped ,somehow made her way down stairs where the dogs slept and i think one of them stepped on her and broke her leg so we took her to the vet and had it amputated,she also had babies but she ate them becuase she was too young to be havin babies (we didnt know that her tank mate was a boy.)