Hoping to make super pins

Well I know this is something that will need to be documented, if I do prove out a super pin in a few years. So heres the start of it, Lemonblast het Hypo x Pin. I'm actually more excited because I consider this a dinker project, many of her babies were quite a bit lighter than others in the same clutch, she is kinda light colored herself.... at least enough to make you wonder. So I paired up her son to see if anything comes from it and at the same time I will be making some 33% possible super pins. I attempted this last year, lots of breeding, no eggs. So this is attempt number 2. They have been breeding for a few months actually and this is the first time it dawned on me to take a picture, so there it is.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psunqswy7n.jpg

Pin on Pin action does look pretty cool together, doesn't it?

good luck :)

but i think what you are trying to do may be impossible. Brian from BHB tried it, failed, and now says there is no super pin.

another thing you need to track: your results could lean towards 66% pinstripes in the clutches, or towards 75% pinstripes in the clutches.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

good luck :)

but i think what you are trying to do may be impossible

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Bullcrap. Every gene has a homozygous form. The only question is: is it feasible to successfully prove it out? Thats the difficult part.

Also, that is a really nice pairing to look at. That lemonblast het hypo is awesome! Good luck



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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

Bullcrap. Every gene has a homozygous form. The only question is: is it feasible to successfully prove it out? Thats the difficult part.

Also, that is a really nice pairing to look at. That lemonblast het hypo is awesome! Good luck

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hypothetically, what if the homozygous form has a side effect, lets say, it makes cell division impossible? then the only way to prove it (apart from maybe things you can do in a biotech laboratory) would be to show statistically that these pairings produce 66.6% pinstripes, instead of the expected 75%. since its only an 8.4% difference between the two values, you would need an awful lot of clutches and eggs to prove that one out.

Or, ya know, hypothetically, the simplest explanation is the correct one. Pinstripe is a dominant mutation, so the homozygous form has the same phenotype as the heterozygous form.

Nobody bothers with the pairing because youd either have to keep every pin and prove it out, even your low value single gene males. Or you'd sell all the animals as just pinstripe and potentially sell a homozygous pin and someone else would reap the benifit of your project with you getting no benefit.

In the cost/benefit analysis of trying a pairing like this there is really no benefit aside from satisfying your own curiosity. Thats why nobody ever tries stuff like this. So good on ya @ the OP!

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Pin on Pin action

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:D Bow Chicka Bow Wow :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'd think someone would notice when one of their pin's produces all pins though. I know I'd get suspicious after two clutches. Either way good luck! :)

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

good luck :)

but i think what you are trying to do may be impossible. Brian from BHB tried it, failed, and now says there is no super pin.

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I've heard the opposite Straight from his own mouth

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I've heard the opposite Straight from his own mouth

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thats interesting. in a different thread, someone posted a screenshot of a discussion with Brian in social media, and he said: "there is no super pin". it was not too long ago. i dont manage to find the thread now, but i am sure these were the exact words.

if he now says that there is one, it may imply he now has one, or that he knows about someone else recently being successful. when did he say it?

even if it looks like a regular pinstripe, it would make pinstripe to pinstripe breedings much more attractive, and it would be very useful for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats interesting. in a different thread, someone posted a screenshot of a discussion with Brian in social media, and he said: "there is no super pin". it was not too long ago. i dont manage to find the thread now, but i am sure these were the exact words.

if he now says that there is one, it may imply he now has one, or that he knows about someone else recently being successful. when did he say it?

even if it looks like a regular pinstripe, it would make pinstripe to pinstripe breedings much more attractive, and it would be very useful for breeding.

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Here's what happened, I asked him about the homozygous pin, he stated that he had a male pin, that came from a pin to pin pairing, in the time he bred him, 27 eggs came from that male pin, all pinstripes. I took it upon myself to calculate the odds of a heterozygous pin doing that and it was over 100 million to one. Where that male is and what happened to it I don't know. He then personally showed me a couple of pinstripe girls that were possible super pins, his words exactly. This was a couple of years ago.

regardless of what anyone says, I am going to try and prove it myself, besides what I have heard personally from Brian I have not heard of anyone else attempting to prove out a homozygous pin, I hear plenty of claims of "everyone trying it" but no real records. I would still however be interested in Brians claim to there being no super pin. I mean I know he never wants to directly say it because of the uneducated backlash from making claims like that, but it would seems silly to outright deny it, especially when hes the ones with the breeding records to prove it with 100 million to one odds. Unless that same pin all of a sudden produced a non-pin offspring, which I never heard about.

Something to keep in mind tho, does he mean there is no super pin, as in an alternative phenotype in the homozygous form? Super is a very ambiguous term.

Either way I will be very open about this. While I don't have much faith in the super spider personally due to scattered claims, I see no reason to not have faith in the super pin.

Good luck! Love pins.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Something to keep in mind tho, does he mean there is no super pin, as in an alternative phenotype in the homozygous form? Super is a very ambiguous term

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I think that is the main reason this conversations are usually so useless. "Super" is just a herper slang that doesnt actually have a real definition, so it causes confusion. It would be so much easier if we stuck to the accepted terminology used in genetic science. Shoot, we dont even use co-dominant correctly.



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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

I think that is the main reason this conversations are usually so useless. "Super" is just a herper slang that doesnt actually have a real definition, so it causes confusion. It would be so much easier if we stuck to the accepted terminology used in genetic science. Shoot, we dont even use co-dominant correctly.

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i think the definition of super is equal to the scientific definition of "homozygous". with one difference: we dont use the word when talking about recessive.

also, it doesnt make any discussion useless. it just means you have to be more careful about the definitions.

anyway, its awesome that OhhWatALoser wants to bring clarity by trying to prove it out himself.

I have a little pin girl coming that I plan to breed to my pastel boy when she is old enough and big enough. If you can prove out a super pin that would be awesome and give higher hopes to people that love pins. I was thinking if I ever got a pin boy to have a go at pin to pin but from everything I've read pin is a dominant gene like normals. If you breeed a normal to a normal you get normals. Unless they're het for something. I love conversations like this. It gets my brain working a bit better than normal. Also not every gene has a homozygous "super" form. Normals don't. So the claim that every gene has one is a false claim. Ohwhataloser please keep us posted I'm going to be following this thread. I'm not ready mentally to start breeding but I would love to start one day.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

another thing you need to track: your results could lean towards 66% pinstripes in the clutches, or towards 75% pinstripes in the clutches.

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I won't have nearly big enough sample size to differentiate a 9% difference. I doubt we ever will at this point. I think the only way to call it a failure would be to keep track of how many failed homozygous pins are proven. I mean each pin only has a 33% chance but if you miss it 20 times in a row... might start to get suspicious.

If you take my breeding records from last year, you apparently have a 80% chance of getting a male and a 0% chance of any female having multiple genes. :) damn those small sample sizes.

Well took me longer than I hoped, but here are babies finally, please excuse my bad pic, I'm in the middle of moving and I figure the snakes haven't even shed yet so cell phone pic it is.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...pszeqpncsa.jpg

8 eggs, 5 lemonblasts 3 pins, all 50% pos het hypo. all 33% pos super pin

There was nothing that looked like a super so maybe the male didn't have the dinker gene like I thought, I missed it, or the dinker gene doesn't have a obvious super. I'm pretty sure 2 lemon blasts (both female) and 1 pin (male) have my dinker gene, so I am no doubt keeping them. im on the fence about 1 pin and 1 lemonblast so I want to wait to shed before i decided if I want to keep them. The other 2 lemonblast and pin are obviously do not have it.

While I play with my dinker project I will be able to report breeding results about the pins I keep. I would really like the other lemonblasts/pins I do not keep to be breed and results shared so I will have to figure out a way to make sure they go to people who have a good chance of making sure that happens. Perhaps we can get a couple more super pins on the map in a couple years.

Best of luck! Keep us informed on what you find out over the next several years!

So update time. Original clutch is growing up, nothing exciting yet. the 2 males I did not keep went to two different friends which will report their breeding results. Maybe something cool will happen this breeding season.

However I did the repeat pairing, 6 eggs this time. 2 lemonblast 3 pin 1 pastel They just had their first shed. Theres one pin that really caught my eye, the thin pin I call it. Its a female.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psb0dbjltg.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...pscahl8url.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...pszblg467j.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...pshh6nohza.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psodiet7j4.jpg

So given my pairing I can explain the lighter color from the het hypo or the dinker gene. The pattern thinning out.... that makes me wonder. Super Pin? Super Dinker? Normal Variation? Shes going to be fun to watch grow up.

Very nice. :gj:

Love that thin pin!! Good luck!

just to update, out of the 3.4 possible super pins, 3.1 proved not to be supers. still waiting to see what the rest of the females throw.