How do medium sized breeders do it?

Small breeders have few snakes to care for big breeders often have staff. I want to hear from you medium sized breeders out there (100-200) animals. I am getting to the point where it feels like something has to give. It feels like as soon as I walk out of my room half my snakes need fed and half my tubs are dirty. I think what is making it feel overwhelming is that the wife no longer helps...never thought she helped much till she stopped LOL (Its not that she is against snakes, we had a child and her time is better spent that way than in the snake room). What do you think the largest collection one person can handle themselves. I know this is more of a vent / rant than anything but I honestly would like some input from those of you with collections this size as to how you manage cleaning, feeding, and the bane of my existence good record keeping (aka the part I suck at that my wife used to do)

Pic on nite/day a week and just get out with your snakes and work. The other thing is cleaning night is just that cleaning night, no stopping to look at the pretty snakes just clean water and move on.

I'm interested in the answers and comments on this also!

I take care of all my snakes by myself. At times I have 600 + snakes to deal with.

Just have to do it.

If you are feeling overwhelmed start cutting back.




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If you feel overwhelmed then it's time to cut back. It's a VERY hard thing to do when you've worked hard to build up your collection but if you don't then either the snakes will begin to suffer or you'll come to resent them. I currently have about half of the animals that I had two years ago. Maybe it's time to dump a few projects and concentrate on the ones you truly like the best.

I don't think there's some magic number that is "ok" for just one person to work with. Everyone is different in their abilities and in their priorities. Some people can handle LOTS of animals working solo, and some people can't even take care of a single pet.

I don't personally work with a large collection, but I've watched a lot of friends do so, and of course I've given it a lot of thought (dreams) for the day when I can start collecting all that I'd like. So here's some general ideas that I think might go a long way toward maintaining a larger collection on your own.

1. Get organized and stay disciplined. Decide which day is cleaning day, and as Ed said, on that day, you just clean. Don't get distracted by other stuff (taking pictures or playing with animals) until all the cleaning is done. Same with feeding day. Figure out a smooth, quick routine for getting the chores done, then stick with it.

2. Don't sweat the small stuff. If you're in feeding mode, don't get distracted by a little poop or urates in the corner. Obviously some big messes may need to be addressed asap, but even those can wait an hour or so until all the feeding is done and you can get back to the messy tub/cage.

3. Remember that no matter how many awesome animals you have, you'll ALWAYS find more that you WANT. Know your limits and stick with them. Even guys like Brian Barczyk can't have ALL the animals they want.

4. Don't be afraid to cut back if you find it truly overwhelming. Better to find good homes for the animals than to get caught in that quicksand that drowns your enjoyment of them.

Maybe look for a part time helper? Pay a middle school/high school kid that loves to work with snakes and wants to make a little extra money. Cheap help and he/she gains expirence. Otherwise time to cut back

If it helps at all I feed, water and spot clean all at the same time on the same night. While the snake is busy constricting it's rodent I'm picking out poo and dirty bedding and replacing with fresh, then fill the water bowl and shut the tub and move on. it takes about 3 hours to do my 200 or so doing it this way. I know that but it gives me the chance to do other things like update records, take pictures, or what ever any other time of the week.

I think everyone will have a different limit depending on their job, spare time, whether they care for their collection alone or not.

Since breeding snakes means also care for the rats, I have put my limit at 100 breeder snakes (does not include the hatchlings during baby season).

It's a hobby, I do not do that for a living and most importantly I want to really enjoy myself and not get burned out.

Well I only have three dozen ranging in size from garters to boas, and my husband helps, so it doesn't seem like that much to do. I think a lot of how much time/effort is required depends on how the animal is kept - I can clean out even the nastiest BP tub in just a few minutes, same for the colubrid tanks unless it's the monthly substrate replacement, and if one of the larger boas gets "artistic"... figure 15-20 minutes for a thorough cleaning/disinfecting of the enclosure and hides.

For feeding, I'd figure that just one day per week is set aside for it, and the only cleaning that day is for big messes. As was pointed out, a few urates can wait.

Automation will be your friend. With 100+ BP's I wouldn't bother with heat tape, thermostats, etc. and trying to monitor each setup to make sure no t-stats or heat tape are failing. It's much easier and cheaper to set the room temp at a steady 86*F and insulate it well. I would also put in an automated mister.

Keep spare water bowls on hand so you don't have to hand-wash them; new ones go in with fresh water, old ones go into the dishwasher.

I guess I should say that I think a lot of this is due to having a "bad snake" day. One of those days where you wake up early its your Saturday and your child is screaming and you know you have 4-6 hours you need to spend in your snake room. I think I need to switch to plastic throw away bowls..to much time spent cleaning the bowls they have now.

Is the youngster still small enough you can put him in a sling and wear him while you work in the snake room?

Some things that I did to speed up my maintenance :

PVC pipe and bowls
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqpfdipl.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psv2twlrcj.jpg

Combined with water in the room
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psy6deaowp.jpg

So to change water, I just have a stack of washed bowls, tub for the dirty ones, and the hose. Swap bowls, fill em up, next cage. Clean dirty bowls when convenient. My collection isn't huge, but I get through my snakes quick and easy. I used to have a big pitcher I would use to fill the bowls, but the hose is faster and you can also mist snakes if needed.

I will also spot clean with a little 2 gallon trash can with a grocery bag in it as a garbage bag. Then just toss that in the bigger trash can in the room.

Feeding day the first thing I do is start dethaw, then go back and get stuff for the live eaters, do something else for an hour, come back feed all the dethawed, check to make sure all the live eater ate, done.

If you can find ways to make it faster/easier on you, I'm sure you will feel less overwhelmed.

I have a small child as well, 8 months and husband is deployed, I put a playpen in the snake room and always set a small clear tub with the feeders at eye level to Gabriel and he sits there and watches the rats forever!

And then I devote 2 days - one is feeding day, as I feed only live this also means making sure everyone makes a clean kill
and one is clean up day. ( I also just bought the pvc to start doing the throw away waters!)

Another question - are you maintaining the rat/mouse colonies to feed all those snakes? Because that's a huge job as well.

I do breed my rats. I dont know why but they dont seem like as much work even though I know that they are more. I guess I have a better system down for them than I do for snakes. Even before I had snakes I bred rats to sell as feeders so I have been playing the rat game a lot longer than the snake one (gave me a few extra years to work the kinks out of the system)

I think I just need to get used to it. I recently last month or two decided to give an honest effort at breeding on this scale and more than doubled the number of snakes I have. In time it will probably seem normal instead over bearing down on me LOL That and getting my kid up to age cleaning size will be wonderful :D

Its all about efficiency. There are a million ways to perform any task, some work better then others. Keep experimenting. You can ALWAYS find a way to improve.

In any process there are 7 forms of waste

Transportation
Inventory (too much or not enough)
Movement
Waiting
Overprocessing
Overproducing
Defects

Ok, im not a medium sized breeder, but I do know a thing or two about creating processes

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I take care of everything myself; however, I don't have kids, this is all I do workwise, and I don't mess with breeding rodents.

Why have we left out one key element in all of this discussion. . . PASSION

If you are not passionate about your projects, your animals, your results, you will not be able to handle even the smallest limit. If you are passionate about your subject and what you intend to do with them, you will make the best of the most work. . .

I'm not a small breeder / medium breeder / large breeder. I'm just a guy who's passionate about what he works with and houses 50 snakes, 12 being retics, 6 being boas, and the rest being smaller. . . With 5 retics past the 10' mark, its a lot of work. And when I mean a lot of work, I mean daily. Doesn't matter if I'm at work for 12 hours on days or nights. Doesn't matter if I have a date that night, or hanging out with friends that next morning. Doesn't matter what's going on. If I was not absolutely passionate about these snakes, I would've cracked at this point. Changing waters, papers, and scrubing urine and feces out of a cage every day you are near the collection is a big task. Moving bigger snakes around is a big task.

it's the same with ball pythons. If you are in it for the money, then consider it a job that has the implication of life or death / success for your snakes. If you are doing it as a hobby, then focus on what part of the hobby makes you happy, get a groove going and then push forward. But I promise, if you do it because you are living proof that someone can be passionate about a "slimy" snake, you will want to get in there and maintain your collection. Don't think you have enough time with kids? Do a checklist for daily time wasters and see what's there. How much time are you on the internet (bp.net included), how much TV do you watch? Are you following a series?

Again, this is speaking as a guy who loves his collection and goes through the daily grind of working 48 hours a week away from my office, then spending 2-3 hours a day when I'm home sorting through cages, changing waters, feeding, and handling snakes. Add into that I'm a working professional photographer and have image deadlines, prints going out, and tours to worry with. If I can manage the time, then its living proof that you anyone can if they are passionate about their collection.

:rolleye2:

I only take care of 60 snakes right now and most have been 80. One day i hope to uave a couple hundred. My wife breeds and cares for the rats. I come home on a friday night after 8.5-10 hours of work and clean and water all the snakes. Saturday morning I get up and feed. Breaking it up seems to make the process go alot faster and smoother. You do what you gotta do and thats it. Being in this hobby/ business can really test you. Like people have said cut back on the collection and focus on what you like the best. The problem isnt catching the bug or ball python fever... Its managing it to a point where it doesnt wear you down. Best of luck and remember where there is a will there is a way!

Something else that makes work go faster....on cleaning day I wear gloves. You can spot clean so much quicker!! Just grab and go!

And yes we keep our own rat colony. They get their own cleaning day. Husband dumps and I spray and wipe down!

If you have somewhat troubled family members who rely on mary j and can seem to grow up sometimes they make good helpers when dealing with snakes. At least in my situation and kids are free labor :D(minus the expense to have feed shelter and school them)

It just takes finding your own personal limit to how much you feel like you can take care of, without it becoming a burden and causing you to burn out on it. I've done 125~ breeding animals and 700~ babies in a year before...I don't want that again. 75 breeders and 180-200 babies is much easier to me (different species now, a few boa and python species, no colubrids) although I was attempting to stay in the 60~ range of adults to be safe. Finding an awesome girlfriend that shares the hobby makes a huge difference and the 75/200 could easily go up by about 50% and still feel quite manageable.

I will say this though, what begins to get to me first isn't the reptile care, it's the rodent breeding, which I much prefer over buying them...and the girlfriend is amazing at helping with that too.


It's all about finding personal limits though and keeping yourself under them before it starts to effect either you, or the care your animals get.

Wow, I don't think I could personally handle more than 30 myself, and that would be pushing it.

ETA: Keeping in mind I am a mother to 3 children ;)

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Originally Posted by Wapadi

Something else that makes work go faster....on cleaning day I wear gloves. You can spot clean so much quicker!! Just grab and go!

And yes we keep our own rat colony. They get their own cleaning day. Husband dumps and I spray and wipe down!

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So it's weird that I just grab and go without gloves? I wash my hands when I'm done lol. I actually only grab it with one hand and manage the water and open tubs with the other. Yes i designate a poop hand.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Yes i designate a poop hand.

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That right there is funny. LoL

I think we all get into this same situation at one point or another.
I was thinking about a post like this last weekend.
I know my problem is that I have too many hobbies so I don't ever get a real day off to relax.
I have close to 40 snakes currently, 7.96 breeding rats, 10.30 breeding mice, my concealed carry holsters, trying to get into leather tooling, and starting two veggie gardens. This doesn't include my 40-50 hour job and all of our other reptile, amphibians, chickens and dogs.

Sometimes its like having 3 full time jobs all at once.
I try to feed and clean the snakes every Thursday night after work and the rodents on Friday nights after work.
Sometimes it just helps to have someone to vent to.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Sometimes it just helps to have someone to vent to.

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Isn't that what a wife/girlfriend is for?

Wait, its the other way around. Carry on! :cool:

Boy does this thread hit home for me. My problem is similar to Pit's, too many hobbies.The 50+ hour a week job, my model aircraft, had to basically stop playing world of warcraft, haven't rode the atv's in forever, etc; etc. But the critters can't wait for me to have time, they get it whether I have it or not. I hit my "wall" several months ago, and realized that I just can't do everything I'd like to. So I've set personal limits based on my experience and available time. For me that mean keeping it under a hundred animals, including all the lizards and turtles, on top of the snakes. It also means I can't jump into all the new things/projects I'd like to. Hang in there, find and stay within your limits, and have a heck of a good time in the process.

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Originally Posted by zee-man

Isn't that what a wife/girlfriend is for?

Wait, its the other way around. Carry on! :cool:

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I vent to my pitty, she usually listens right up until we start to argue ;):rofl:

Something that saved me a bunch of time: I switched to the pvc couplers with disposable bowls maybe a year ago now. Biggest time saver ever! If a bowl is dirty, I just dump the water that's left, pop the liner out, put a new one in, fill it up and go. I don't find it that expensive. I buy them in bulk and change them any time they even begin to get grimy or have bedding in them. I also recycle the disposable bowls which makes me feel slightly better about the waste. When I had glass pyrex bowls, it seemed to take forever to clean them (dishwasher didn't do a good enough job) and I never felt like they were clean enough.

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

Boy does this thread hit home for me. My problem is similar to Pit's, too many hobbies.The 50+ hour a week job, my model aircraft, had to basically stop playing world of warcraft, haven't rode the atv's in forever, etc; etc. But the critters can't wait for me to have time, they get it whether I have it or not. I hit my "wall" several months ago, and realized that I just can't do everything I'd like to. So I've set personal limits based on my experience and available time. For me that mean keeping it under a hundred animals, including all the lizards and turtles, on top of the snakes. It also means I can't jump into all the new things/projects I'd like to. Hang in there, find and stay within your limits, and have a heck of a good time in the process.

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Ha! I haven't played world of warcrack since it was beta and am glad my computer won't run diablo III or there's no telling how much time I would waste on it...and don't even want to think about how much of my life was spent sitting play D2.

I do keep the cheap disposable gloves around and they make cleaning easier, it really can make things go quickly if I'm just grabbing out waste spots while the g/f does water bowls. For snake cages I just wear one on the hand I'm grabbing poop and such with, I also wear them (both hands) when I'm cleaning rodent cages...I just feel cleaner after I'm done that way.

I actually should amend my earlier post a bit. Under a hundred animals not counting feeders. Probably maintaining around a hundred rats right now due to some overproduction, and then there's the roach colony's. The bugs are pretty easy, but I could give up the rats in a heartbeat. Darn picky balls.

Hi this is a great thread keep it going. It is rat and snake feeding and cleaning day. 4 flooded bins, just nasty not drowning, and non working valves:mad: I am having a bad snake day. But my rats seem to like me. For the rats time saving, I have lots of spare bins I fill them all at once, move and pull rats, then dump and refill all at once. That's also why its rat and snake day I pull and feed the same day. It can get overwhelming but then not as many young rats to care for. It started as a 3 person hobby and now its just me. I would fire everyone else but they are family. There are some good ideas for time saving. Keep them coming. Also knowing there are frustrated people like me helps. :)

Not sure what anyone else thinks is the really fastest of ways to clean rodent cages...usually my g/f does mice, I do asf's and we split the rats...I do think it actually goes faster on the smaller mice and asf cages with one person dumping and refilling an extra tub and the other person just constantly swapping out the clean tub in place of a dirty one and moving the rodents into the new tub.


As for flooded tubs, I'm in the process of figuring out how I'm going to drill holes in one corner of my tubs and either glue a metal washer in place or put in some kind of rivets or brads so that the water can run out...I may end up with a wet tub, but won't have to worry about one totally flooded. Next step behind that one is putting some kind of catch cans in place under the holes in the tubs to carry off the water that drips down out of them in the event of a valve malfunction.

If your using tap water in a watering system, it's probably a good idea to disassemble the valves once a month and clean them. I just run r/o water in mine, haven't had any issues other than an escapee chewing through a couple lines and flooding a tub that way. Of course the water from our well has a lot ofncrud in it, I'd have to even clean out the lines monthly if I tried using it.

I actually went back to bottles. Spend more time filling bottles but less time cleaning a tub I just cleaned the day before because the valve leaked and made a mess of the bedding. It seemed to always work that way. Dirty tubs never flood but clean it and it will be wet within the hour.

I am thinking about moving my rats to a staggered cleaning schedule where I clean one tub per rack once a day. Would mean I would have to give a few extra minutes every day but would never have the "big" cleaning day. I only use 5 tubs racks so that would put every tub getting cleaned once every five day.

I am at 40+ animals that I manage myself. I have a full time job and other hobbies as well!

Here are some things that have helped me with time:

1. DISPOSABLE WATER DISHES (see a theme here). I do not have a water line in the garage, so I fill a gallon jug and use it to fill up water dishes.
2. Pick a feeding day. I feed the whole collection on Friday, and the little ones get fed on Mon or Tues again. I also use these days to mist down anyone in shed. I use a garden mister from Lowes. Friday is also the day I burp any egg boxes in the incubator.
3. Cleaning is ongoing, to a point. Each night I spend a few minutes cleaning out the really bad tubs. I use liners in most of them (Reptizorb) so it is easy to toss the soiled liner, wipe out the tub with F-10 and pop in a new liner. I also always have empty tubs that are ready to go if I need to just get a snake out of his/her mess until I can clean the tub.

Right now the bane of my existence are tipped water dishes. I have had to go with crocks on a few males who will tip the PVC every darn day.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

Not sure what anyone else thinks is the really fastest of ways to clean rodent cages...usually my g/f does mice, I do asf's and we split the rats...I do think it actually goes faster on the smaller mice and asf cages with one person dumping and refilling an extra tub and the other person just constantly swapping out the clean tub in place of a dirty one and moving the rodents into the new tub.


As for flooded tubs, I'm in the process of figuring out how I'm going to drill holes in one corner of my tubs and either glue a metal washer in place or put in some kind of rivets or brads so that the water can run out...I may end up with a wet tub, but won't have to worry about one totally flooded. Next step behind that one is putting some kind of catch cans in place under the holes in the tubs to carry off the water that drips down out of them in the event of a valve malfunction.

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Maybe drill small drain holes and then cover it with screen. Could even use the screens that go into faucets.

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Originally Posted by MonkeyShuttle

Maybe drill small drain holes and then cover it with screen. Could even use the screens that go into faucets.

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Thanks but that wouldn't work...rodents can chew through screen like that.

It'll be a small enough hole that I'm not concerned about whatever bedding falling out it, the concern will be with putting something over the hole so that if the rodents find the hole by chance under the bedding, that there's something strong enough around it to keep them from chewing it bigger. Cheapest and most likely option I'm looking at is probably just going to be gluing washers in place and drilling a hole through the center.

I know my bedding would just plug the drain hole when it got wet, I wouldn't see it helping.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I know my bedding would just plug the drain hole when it got wet, I wouldn't see it helping.

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Then theres that

It will some, but it should drip out enough to keep a cage from totally flooding out, hopefully enough to just have a soaking wet colony instead of a drowned and dead one. I've been thinking about that part also. If it does stop it up too much, I'll try putting the hole on the side instead. If none of this works, I may start playing with the design of some lab racks that are built with the water nozzles on the outside of the bin so if the nozzles drip, it doesn't drip into the cage anyways.

I think you may be over-thinking a solution to handle the problem when it may be simpler to address fixing the problem. Valve leak for very few reasons 1-Dirt 2-Mineral Buildup 3- Diaphragm or O-Ring worn out.

These are pretty easy to handle for option 1 an in-line filter (will set you back about $5) option 2 is probably the most pricey fix you could buy RO or Distilled water or you could buy a home RO unit ($150-2k+ keep in mind these will need atleast annual filter replacement and biannual membrane replacement aka more $$) and with 3 the valves should last long enough that spending a few bucks buying some extra internal parts should keep you set for years.

Dont get me wrong I switched from using valves back to bottles because I decided I would rather waste 30 minutes a day filling bottles than worrying about leaks. If you though are dead set on wanting to use valves (honestly a more time efficient way of watering a colony) you may want to stop thinking about things like putting leaking valves outside of the tubs somehow and start thinking about preventing leaks in the first place.

I don't think you'll ever solve all the leaks, they're going to happen...ever seen rats build a nest up to the top of the cage under a water bottle causing it to leak? I've even seen a rat taking a piece of bedding and trying to jam it into a variflow valve...maybe I shouldn't say trying, it was a successful attempt. Why? Who knows. I do know I'm not the only person who has ever had those problems. O-rings or the little flanges in variflows get old and wear, it happens, I've got some that I've been using that are twenty years old now. The newest variflows I have I would have bought somewhere around 2000-2002 at the latest and I cleaned one out a few days ago that still had an original o-ring in it. I think that shows they can be great for a long time, but still, they are mechanical and can fail. I'm still curious with the new reptile basics valve how long they will last on average.

I don't think I'm over thinking anything though, we've got a good mouse trap, but why not continue to improve on it? (Even though there is a better one out there already...referring to the ones made with valves outside the box)

What you're talking about are ways to help cut down on the chances of valves leaking. I want to take it to a different place where even if the valves leak, the cages aren't in harm of flooding out. I'm not going back to filling 60-80 water bottles, right now I have lines running off of water jugs so if something does happen, there's a limited amount of water/cages that can be flooded. Once I have things in place, whichever direction I decide to go to do it, where cages flooding out competely is no longer possible, I'm tying back into a water line with a pressure regulator. Thats the end goal, rodents will be safe and I won't be filling bottles or jugs either one.