Which Pairing Combo

Hello folks, I've been quietly lurking the forums for a little while, but as I'm getting ready to start finally exploring the world of ball python breeding (on a hobbyist level), I figured I'd try to become a more active member of this community - mainly for my benefit but hopefully I can be helpful to others somehow as well :-P.

I've been bitten again by the bug to expand my collection, however these will probably be my final two purchased and the remainder will be "home grown." I've been researching the following 4 genes/morphs and was looking for some input. Butter, Fire, Vanilla, and Enchi. I originally was looking at Butter and then discovered the Nuclear BP. I then was trying to figure out a good "pairing" and thought, why not Enchi Vanilla, lots of possible combos. During my research of these combos I think I've fallen in love with Vanilla Cream (the mrs certainly has!) and the Butter Enchi looks pretty durn good too - I just love Butter/Lesser (going to just assume its the same thing).

I'm now leaning towards the latter "pairing" for future combos, especially since I'd want the Vanilla Cream anyways, might as well start with it. My main thought process now, is which should be male, and which female? Looking online at some of the more reputable breeders (or ones I've worked with in the past) I find Vanilla Creams available, but only males. These makes me assume that the female is more valuable/important and that should be my focus (maybe??). As for Butter Enchi's, I've had 0 luck finding those, so its difficult to say.

I'd usually want a "coloration" morph to be my female, and the "patterned" morph to be my male, but this is new territory for me as far as what these colors could easily feed into. Still doing my research, but hoping to get some input.



Thanks and all the best!

I have a pastave vanilla coming next week, pairing her with a enchi fire but this may change by the time she gets closer to breeding size. I'm a huge fan of fire x vanilla morphs as well. Add pastel or enchi in and....

Absolutely! Vanilla Fire is an awesome combo. As soon as I saw it I was mesmerized. Just s omething about those soft hues and creaminess to the snake.

It appears you've got some awesome combos planned yourself. Enchi has certainly grown in popilarity over the past 5 years it seems. I don't know if it was brand new when I started or the potential wasn't yet realized or what but like yellowbellies they seem to be gaining ground.

butter/lesser, fire, vanilla, and enchi are all good choices, and good genes to have in a collection.

just a few thigs to consider..... just my personal opinion, i think vanilla fires are really awesome, but vanilla on its own, without fire, doesnt do that much. its a bit like a weaker version of fire.

vanilla fire also is one of these allelic combos that cannot reproduce themselves. when you breed a vanilla fire to another BP that does not have vanilla or fire, half of the hatchlings get the vanilla gene and the other half get the fire gene. its no problem when you have other combos that already have vanilla or fire or both, for example, breeding vanilla fire to fire will give you chances to get more vanilla fire. but in your situation, if you buy a vanilla fire, you wont hatch any vanilla fires in the next generation, you can later produce them, but not right away. that could be a reason to have vanilla in one of the BPs, and fire in the other one.

then, females are generally more expensive, and one male can be bred to several females. simply put, the females determine how many eggs you get each season, and the job of the males is mainly to make sure that the content of these eggs is awesome. so the more expensive genes should be in the male, and also the genes that you really want to spread around in your collection should be in the male.


you also need to consider what you already have, and if you want to also use the male to breed it to one of the females you already have. for example, you already have a BEL female, so if the male you get has lesser/butter and something else, you can also make more BELs. or, if you really want to spread one or two of these genes through your collection, lets say enchi and fire, you would want these in the male, so that you can breed it to your super pastel and normal females.

with all the options you have its quite complicated to figure it out, and much depends on your personal preference and what you want to produce. it will also depend on what you can actually find on the market, and if its within price range.

i think the reason why enchi is getting more popular is that it took a while for people to realize how powerful that gene is. some combos had to be discovered for people to get the message. champagnes, for example, are sometimes patternless, and sometimes have a bit of pattern on the spine. and no matter what you combine with it, the sides stay patternless, only the colors change. except for enchi, enchi returns the side-pattern. enchi can even overpower pied: super enchi pieds seem to always be really low in white, with lots of interesting pattern on the back and sides. its really unique how enchi can add pattern to some morphs that are generally mostly patternless.

Thanks for totally making my mind explode! :P

Incredible stuff. But no, seriously, thank you for your reply. I honestly didn't know that the two genes could not pass to offspring if from the same parent. I need to locate a link/resource somewhere that breaks down what other genes act similarly, so I don't make any silly mistakes (see, 2+ years worth).

I'm thinking I still lean towards the Vanilla Cream and Enchi Butter. Cool thing is I can breed my Spinner to the Enchi Butter and get lots of cool combos. Or as you noted, breed the Vanilla Cream to the BEL or Super Pastel and get Fire Mojaves or FireFlies respectively. Perhaps not as awesome as more BEL's though, but I already have that snake - though I see where you're coming from with a selling mindset.



I have to admit, the more I spend on Google searching all of the possible combos the more I want to cry. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to pull a Bruce Wayne on these Ball Python morphs. I'll have one of each in my collection. I need to do some more studying and investigation before I make my next investment. Its a whole fustercluck of potential and I certainly want to plan accordingly both for what I want in my collection and the direction I'd like to go.

I would reccommend that the male be the Vanilla-Fire, this way, no matter wich females you breed him to, all the babies will have either the Fire, or the Vanilla gene. You won't have any normals. Everything he produces will have at least 1 gene.

there are several ways to put it. basically, these combos are the ones where you have two genes from the same gene complex in the same BP. some call it an "allelic" combo, some call it "acts like a super", or "combined super-form".

they are listed here: http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

common examples would be many BELs (if they are made from two different genes), and vanilla cream, and things like super stripe / puma / highway. basically its a bunch of genes that sit at exactly the same location in the genetic code. so its impossible to make a "super fire vanilla" or a "super vanilla fire" or a "super butter mojave". when a gene complex is involved, these genes interact in a very strong way, and you cannot get more than two of them in one BP.

its often also an advantage: when you breed vanilla cream to vanilla cream, all offspring will get two genes (no single-gene or triple gene offspring), a bit like breeding super pastel to super pastel. except that you get 25% super fire, 25% super vanilla, and 50% vanilla cream. or when you breed highway to highway (its yellowbelly + gravel), you get 50% highway, 25% ivory (super yellowbelly), 25% super gravel.

slowcountryballs is correct: you can breed a vanilla cream to any number of normals, you will not get any normal hatchlings. half of them get vanilla, half of them get fire, no exception. but you also wont get more vanilla creams.

people often intentionally focus on genes from one gene complex, as a project, and work with it. for example, if a breeder just loves mystic potion (/ purple passion), that person will have mojave combos in the collection, and combos with mystic(/phantom), maybe super mojaves, maybe super mystics (or super phantoms), and mystic potions. and its the same with vanilla cream.

Pythonfriend's explanation about a gene complex is good. The only comment I have, is that I would not get any normal females to breed to. Single gene animals, especially males are harder to sell (but easier to sell than normals). Right now, I'm trying to add more animals with a supper or gene complex into my collection to reduce the number of single gene animals that I produce. If I breed my male Jigsaw Blast (Pastel Pinstripe Mojave) to my female Pewter (Pastel Cinnamon), there is still the possibility of producing a normal (1/32). But if the male were a Pastel Mystic Potion (Pastel Mojave Mystic), the worst I could get would be Mojave's and Mystics.

By going with a male Vanilla Cream and morph females, you will insure that you at least get single gene animals and maybe double or triple gene animals (if the female is a single or double gene animal).

Good posts to the both of you and thanks for that link. I have it bookmarked for my "work" today. By work I mean the fun of going through all possible offspring combos of my current collection and what other combos I can get if I add these two to mycollection. Should be a lot of fun.

I've found a number of male Vanilla Creams but no luck on Enchi Butter. At least one breeder I contacted is expecting to potentially produce some this summer. Obviously theres no guarantees only possibilities.

Wish me luck, ha!

If you spring for the Cream project, go for a super vanilla or super fire! Fire and vanilla are hard to tell the difference between and as a starting hobbyist you want to make sure that you are ROCK solid on the genetic ID of what you're selling. Not to mention a super ups the chance of getting creams in the first place and taking out the possibility of creating normals. :gj:

better go for a super vanilla boy and a bunch of fire enchi, firefly, fire lesser, fire yb girls.

I can understand the concern with misclassifying a snake and honestly its very realistic for a new person to this breeding game such as myself. But doesn't the differentiation get cancelled the moment I'd breed a vanilla and fire? Guess it could be argued that I'll have built up the experience by then but theres always the inherent risk. Besides I have the help of the professionals... you guys and gals!! ;-)

Darkranger I like your enthusiasm but I don't think the boss is going to allow THAT many snakes. I'm not trying to corner a market just produce some morphs we like and maybe sell some other bp's to cover some costs and bring the enjoyment of this hobby into someone else's life.



One big decide on the number of snakes we keep is the number of rats to sustain said snakes. At 2 females a snake (I believe I read on the rat breeding forum) thats a lot of rats that adds up quick.

Keep it coming. Much appreciated!

Update: After more research and looking at all morphs currently available I think I'll go with the following three and then "make" the remainder of my collection.

1. Vanilla Cream Male
2. Enchi Butter Female
3. Sugar X Female

Haven't decided what 'X' will be yet, maybe fire to enable making more vanilla creams. I do know I want a higher white female sugar - which seems hard to come by. The one on worldofballpythons is a solid example. Ive found some other interesting combos with sugar that are available but I need to consider the best option.

As for the Enchi Butter a breede O contacted has a chance for some this summer. So probably around fall time for her.

Vanilla Cream has me a bit confused. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but of there was an "AKC" standard for snakes, what would it be for Vanilla Creams? Do you want a lot of darks and lights with tons of fading, little pattern and high cream with minimal fading? And how would each affect the offspring? Any input?


Thanks!

I suggest expanding the collection with female morphs. Breeding plans change all the time. Are you really going to wait 2 to 3 years for your one female just for one combo? Plus there's a slight chance of that female not even making it full term.

stickyalvinroll is right.

if you buy hatchlings (which is the most economical way, and avoids many risks that come with buying adults), you can buy males 1 year later than females.

but then, looking at your signature, apart from the pair of albinos, what remains is 3 females, one male spinner, and a male cinnamon. a spinner is really good for breeding, a single-gene cinnamon not so much, maybe just a few times to hit a few combos once. so with that in mind, going for all 3, one male two females, really makes sense.

one thing to consider: its a double gene male and two double gene females. also i think the females will each, or at least one of them, be more expensive as it is (just a hunch). why not go for a triple gene male, and two single gene females? it would be much cheaper, but the hatchlings would still have 2 genes on average.

or, from a slightly different angle: if you are going for a female enchi butter/lesser and a female sugar/calico + extra gene, thats some powerful females right there that will cost a bit if you look for top quality, which im sure you do. compared to that, the male doesnt look right, it seems genetically rather weak. it makes sense to make sure that the male is financially more valuable and genetically more powerful than either of the females.

so what i would do is to cut down on the females a bit and upgrade the male. or just invest more in the male. or take the budget you have for these 3 snakes, and make sure that the male gets 40% or more of it, and 30% or less of it goes to each female. its just a mathematical / statistical / pragmatic fact that you get more bang for your buck that way.

(side note: you say really good high-white sugars are hard to find.... in case you are not doing it already, just look for both, sugar and calico, i think they are the same because you can find examples of all possible optics in both lines. its just that in the specific line called sugar, the really high-white ones seem to be rather rare and expensive. so put the name aside, look for both, until you find the one that has the desired optics. same goes for lesser/butter.)

Stickyalvinroll I understand everything you've said and I can 100% understand the logic. Only thing I'm confused on is the "might not go full term" comment. Is there something special about these morphs that has breeding issues or are combos more likely to fail in breeding? Just want to ensure I'm understanding. I'm in no huge rush to breed I just love the snakes and the chance to breed is very exciting. But its not my end goal just a part of the overall experience.



Python good post again. I do indeed buy hatchlings or sub adults, ie they haven't been tampered with yet... I like virgins ;-) (sorry maybe slightly inappropriate). I also thank you for double checking I dont fail to realize sugar and calico are the same - though personally I like Sugar more.

You'd be disappointed in me. I had a phenomenal opportunity to get a triple gene female today and I took it. The optimized side might cringe but if I can get a triple at the price of a cheap double thats hard to pass up. Especially when her genes have what I want.

The reason for the male Vanilla Cream is that I know that combo will be in my collection someday and if I start with him I've got good accent genes to put in any of my snakes. And I'll be honest... the breeder selling him I've done business with and I really like him - the breeder. I'd like to give him my business and continue to develop that relationship. Might be silly but that too motivates me to make the purchase this year as opposed to next.

You mentioned one snake being more expensive I'll guess you meant the Enchi Butter. Due to today's acquisition that female would more than likely be an Enchi Sugar. Will that raise the price.. I haven't a clue. But that will probably be a prospect for this fall. I doubt anyone has any available now and I need to confirm my rack space, heh.

You're also correct that a cinnamon isn't that impressive but he can give me pewters and maybe someday a super cinny or that complex. I know many folks like to pass around their males but my plan is to only do a couple clutches a year so more than likely a male will only see one female. So the super complex investment male and single gene females would hamper my inefficient method - if that even makes sense. Plus these animals I buy are permanent members so I'd like for them to be eye candy also.

I do really appreciate all of the conversation. Believe it or not it has been helpful. I will post some pics when I get some of my new clan. Maybe the triple this week for breeder photos and the vanilla cream sometime soon too.

Much obliged or as they say here arigatou gozaimasu.

No not at all. The morphs don't have that problem. You know how people in real life have miscarriages, or they cannot have babies at all? That could happen in bps too, but only a slight chance tho. Good to have multiple females just in case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zee-man

I had a phenomenal opportunity to get a triple gene female today and I took it. The optimized side might cringe but if I can get a triple at the price of a cheap double thats hard to pass up. Especially when her genes have what I want.

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So what did you get? :)

As soon as I hear back from the breeder, I will post some pics of the new acquisition.

Similar for the Vanilla Cream once that deal has been sealed. Don't want to cheat you guys of some nice looking snakes after all this discussion :-D.