Question About Visitors In Your Breeding Facility...

A question prompted by a thread I saw today. I'd like to hear your policy on letting visitors into your breeding facility. How about friends and family? How about friends and family who also keep their own reptiles? Let's hear it :)

i dont have a facility...

but then, i think if you cannot trust your close friends and your family with your valuable stuff, you are pretty much screwed. if the situation requires it, i would trust them to the point of giving them the keys to my home. lets say im in an accident and end up temporarily stuck in a hospital, those that i consider close can be trusted to the point of giving them my keys to get something from my home for me. without any worries that they might screw it up.

so, for me, when it comes to friends and family, its a clear-cut case. its a common sense thing, you should know your close friends and family good enough to know who can be trusted.

i think the real problem is that break-ins, theft, and acts of sabotage do happen. so keeping knowledge of the location of a facility limited to a small amount of people can really make sense. it doesnt matter much for small collections that are within someones home, where someone is around pretty much all the time. such small collections are basically similar to having a valuable comic collection or a valuable gun collection, or having a small workshop with valuable tools attached to your house. it also doesnt matter for really big facilities that have security cameras and reinforced doors. those inbetween, with a small facility and limited budget for security, but nonetheless some really valuable snakes, have the highest risks.

so i think how to deal with people you do not know well is more interesting. and it depends a lot on circumstances, like the value, size, and location of the collection/facility, if there is significant cashflow or not, and how much has been invested in security.

I don't have a facility only a room dedicated to snakes (soon I will have 2) and only a few people have had access to the room and it's not a regular thing. ......you can say I don't like to share my toys with others ;)

Obviously I do not allow strangers into my home so customers or curious people do not get to come and see my animals even though I have had many request. Obviously it is a privacy security reason, how many people would let a total stranger in their home anyway snakes or not?

I chose no because I'm in the same boat as Deborah. I'd feel weird asking strangers to remove their shoes at the front door too. :D

I do not have a separate facility. My collection (about 60 animals which I have invested tens of thousands of dollars in) is inside my home.

I do not let people come to visit my collection. The list of people who have seen it is around 10-15 people long.

In Tallahassee, where I live, it is very heavily populated with students and lower income house holds. I don't make it known where I live and how much my collection is worth because the people who live in my area are not trustworthy. There is a high crime rate in my area, and with limited security I want to minimize the chance of anything happening, as far as theft goes.

Some of my visitors own reptiles, others don't. I am pretty cautious about exposing my animals to disease or parasites, to the point that when I get home from work (a locally owned pet store that deals with exotics and reptiles) my clothes go straight in to the washer to limit anything following me home.

My animals aren't just breeders, they are my pets and they are loved. It's no different than me being very cautious of who my puppy plays with and where she is allowed to go.

I guess my point is, I would rather be overly cautious than have something stolen or have my animals get sick.


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My small collection is at my house. Due to my partner having lots of circles she is a part of, I have had the opportunity to give many people positive first interactions with snakes. Strangers, no. For a sale, maybe, as long as they leave the axe at home (shout out to you chukkee11)! It's tough to get a positive name out there for yourself with a limited number of animals, so I want to be able to give customers as much information as possible, as well as let them feel comfortable with my level of husbandry. Friends, without exceptions. Only rule is no opening a cage if there is any real drinking happening.

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Originally Posted by missriss2012

it is very heavily populated with students and lower income house holds.

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LOL, I live two hours south of you, and I resemble that remark...

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Originally Posted by Deborah

customers...do not get to come and see my animals even though I have had many request.

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So you rely completely on Internet sales or Reptile Expos for your income from the snakes?? I would think that people would like to come and interact with the snake first/see it in person before committing to purchase, especially if they were in the area. We did that with our cats we got from the breeders...

We have ours in a dedicated room at home. Our friends and co workers know we have snakes we just try to keep the specifics and value quiet. Only a few people have seen them.


Some friend could harmlessly mention details about them to another person who is more dishonest and could lead to a break in.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

So you rely completely on Internet sales or Reptile Expos for your income from the snakes?? I would think that people would like to come and interact with the snake first/see it in person before committing to purchase, especially if they were in the area. We did that with our cats we got from the breeders...

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I bought a snake from someone on the forum who I am cool with now and he made me meet him in a nearby public place the first time.

I am totally ok with that and is what I will do when I have to deal with a complete stranger buying a snake from me.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I would think that people would like to come and interact with the snake first/see it in person before committing to purchase, especially if they were in the area. We did that with our cats we got from the breeders...

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THIS :number1: is where I stand on the issue as well.

I'm prone to letting friends and family into the reptile office which is in an apartment separate from the main house. I have allowed fellow keepers who want to see things visit, but only if I can visit their facilities first to ensure their animals were all AOK and mite free. . . I've invited people over for local sales before after communications and phone calls, but mainly if its their first snake. Otherwise if its local I just meet them out somewhere.

When people do come by, we usually don't get the balls out . . . no one is really interested in them except for a family that was just starting to get into snakes, they came by from about 3 hours away to pick up a new hognose for their daughter, they were highly interested in ball pythons since they were smaller, so I let them see a select few. Other than that its hold a 13' snake with me, feed something with 40" tongs (usually a big retic or the big boa), take some pictures, and then they are on their way.

I don't have fear of issues with strangers coming into the house if they are known in the community a bit, or I have associated with them long enough on forums / facebook / reptile shows / etc. In fact, this attitude has given me access to others facilities. So its a nice trade off to see variation and how everyone does there thing.

I said "No I Do Not, But Am Not 100% Strict About It"

I don't usually let anyone see my animals. I will make exceptions for personal friends and family.
I make everyone who comes over to my house remove their shoes regardless. (Asian thing....)
And I make everyone disinfect their hands when handling my animals.

However, letting friends or family see my animals isn't really a huge deal since most of them don't really want to see my reptiles anyway. As for my reptile friends, if I know their animals are clean, I will let them come over.

Strangers or new buyers: No way. I don't know who these people are or anything about them. If they want to buy an animal, we will meet in a public area. It's for the safety of my home, family, and animals as well as for the buyer. (However, I don't think anyone is going to break into a house that's patrolled by 2 protection trained Doberman Pinschers and a German Shepherd...... >__<;; )

Not to mention that I am paranoid of people bringing in unwanted hitchhikers into my collection.

Maybe if the buyer is a repeat customer or communicates regularly with me, I might let the rule slide.

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Originally Posted by Slim

LOL, I live two hours south of you, and I resemble that remark...

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Watch out! It's Shady Slim!

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I would think that people would like to come and interact with the snake first/see it in person before committing to purchase, especially if they were in the area. We did that with our cats we got from the breeders...

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To be fair, the cat people can't really bring 10 cats in a car to meet you somewhere to interact with them. If transporting 10 cats a short distance were as simple as it is for snakes I bet a lot less cat breeders would let strangers into their home. Also, with cats, you probably wanted to see how they interacted with siblings, parents and strangers in their comfort zone - not something you do with snakes.

And thus is why our hobby is full of "weirdos who sell snakes out of their cars at Starbucks"

If the crazy cat people who make you wash your hands before and after petting their $15,000 cat can let you come to their home and "interview" the cat, I don't see why a snake breeder can't either. Even if we know the client can't adequately judge the animal's "Personality" or "Temperament" in one visit, neither can a prospective cat or dog owner at the breeder's house (or the animal shelter for that matter)...

Oh well…each has their own way I guess

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

And thus is why our hobby is full of "weirdos who sell snakes out of their cars at Starbucks"

If the crazy cat people who make you wash your hands before and after petting their $15,000 cat can let you come to their home and "interview" the cat, I don't see why a snake breeder can't either. Even if we know the client can't adequately judge the animal's "Personality" or "Temperament" in one visit, neither can a prospective cat or dog owner at the breeder's house (or the animal shelter for that matter)...

Oh well…each has their own way I guess

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Are you trying to say snakes have personalities and temperaments on par with cats? I did a poor job of making my point in the last post - trying again. A snake is a snake, there is little change from one location to another. A cat is a cat, unless they're accustomed to it, quite a bit is going to change in their behavior when you pull the rug out from under them and switch venues. My whole point was that there is a justifiable reason to visiting the cat in person before making a purchase. Maybe the difference lies is in the type of breeder too; I'm a hobby breeder and not concerned with making sales so much as enjoying myself. I have no pressure to make sales so the choice is purely personal.

Too much invested for strangers to come handle a snake they "may" want to purchase. Not taking that chance even if it means a missed sale from someone local.

I have made 75% of my purchases only seeing pics and texting/talking on the phone. A few purchases sight unseen (pics or anything) from breeders I trust. 100% of my sales are forum/internet sales. If you think people are not interested in stealing from your collection, think again.

Numerous cameras on a 1TB DVR system with and a full blown security system with motion detectors, glass break alarms, and welded rebar over the windows are in place (along with an armed owner when at the facility). I do not live in a low rent district, but it is a tourist town. We have about 250K bikers in town right now for Bike Week and a few hundred thousand people a couple weeks ago for the Daytona 500.

My gf does not even have the security code to the alarm system..... I trust no one.

I don't like complete strangers coming to my house, which is where my snakes are located. When I make a sale, I'll meet in a public place (which is also how I did it when I was breeding pet rats). I have brought aimed I'd my snakes out for education and display purposes, and would do it again.

Hopefully getting a reptile room this year. We will have a security system for the house and I'll keep the door to the room locked. I wouldn't invite people over to my place for sales. That's just weird to me. I don't want them to know exactly where I live and especially not the layout of the house. If someone local wanted to see in person I'd meet them somewhere public.

I don't really get the whole point of someone coming over and interacting with the snake before purchasing, especially with ball pythons. I buy for genes and the quality of those genes. I can see that with online pictures. Aside from the boa, every snake I've bought is from seeing one picture and I was never displeased or misrepresented when I got the snake in hand.

I've read too many stories since joining this hobby about theft, and I plan to be extra cautious about it. It makes me really uncomfortable when my roommates have parties. I go lock the T8 doors. I also don't like answering their questions of how much they are/how much I've spent. I trust my roommates and their close friends but not random party people. I like the fact that non snake people don't just how expensive these animals can be.

im sure this is where a lot of common sense plays a huge part in making this decision. i believe there are a bad people out there and they usually have a tell or history so them maybe not so much but just cause someone is a stranger shouldn't be the write off sense you could be the door for them to experience something pretty darn cool and make a new pale ;)

This is a yes and no situation. I have 2 young children, and fire arms in my home. I also have my BPs. Would I let COMPLETE strangers around my babies? I would say no. If the person that wants to buy a BP from me and has communicated well, and met me in public first and I felt comfy with them then I might. My In laws hate my BPs, but they wouldn't intentionally injure, or release them from their cagings. The biggest "party" I've had was with the people that got me into BPs. They came over for dinner. If and when I can build a room off the back of my house that will be locks, barb wired, and in accessible to anyone but me. Plus I have a very protective Doberman that doesn't like strangers around her pack pups (my babies), so I don't think anyone will be stupid enough to ty and come in my house, and what she doesn't get I will. I have a conceal carry, and haven't missed my mark in 17 yrs. I'm prior military and we had to be good or we were out.

I don't even let strangers in my house, let alone in my reptile room. I could be selling them a dirty sock - I'd still meet them in public. My local sales are all through Craigslist so that plays into it as well. Frankly, I don't trust people in my personal space. I wouldn't invite a co-worker over to my house unless I had broken down certain trust and social walls first. Trust is earned for me, not a given.

If I had a facility that wasn't in my home, I would probably let motivated buyers in to see a particular animal or two. I would not be giving free tours for kicks and definitely would have some state of the art security features. Think how quickly you could slide open a tub and pocket a snake. I have a small collection and check them daily, but assuming I had a separate facility from my home - there is a good chance there would be enough animals in there that it might take me a few days before noticing that one is gone.

As far as making exceptions at home for friends and family, I kind of pre-screen people to see if they would enjoy or be disturbed by the animal room. I mean, I have a bin with thousands of roaches in it. I have teeming hordes of rats in there. There is a snake watching you from behind at all times (racks on opposite sides of the room). This kind of stuff just isn't for everybody. If they're in my house, then I respect them enough to not try to get some shock value out of showing them things they don't care about or are made uncomfortable by.

My family has no interest in the snakes, in fact, we are now banned from hosting holiday gatherings. Had I known that would be the result when we brought the first little king snake into the house years ago, I would have gotten one ten years ago. :D

We do have a few friends who also keep reptiles, and we're familiar with their QT practices and know they have healthy collections, so they aren't a concern.

We're in a rather unusual position with respect to our other friends, as most of the folks we know are through our home-based firearm business, so at some point we've run a background check on them. Felons are cut out of our social circle so there aren't many concerns with theft. Our firearm customers are turning into a nice little pool of prospective/first-time local BP and boa purchasers because we have let these people see and handle the animals in our collection if they express interest - we have one boaphile enclosure in the office. Plus the overprotective momma in me prefers to make local sales so I can keep track of my "babies" to make sure they're being housed correctly.

Melinda i have a secret clearance would that get me in lol

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

So you rely completely on Internet sales or Reptile Expos for your income from the snakes?? I would think that people would like to come and interact with the snake first/see it in person before committing to purchase, especially if they were in the area. We did that with our cats we got from the breeders...

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I can understand with the breeding of dogs and cats, you want to pick your animal based on it's personality but I breed snakes, so my animals are chosen based on their genetics and looks not their temperament or temperament of their parents so pictures are really all it takes. ;)

I do rely on internet sales only, and I do deliver/meet in public places of my choice, however since a breeder was shot last year when delivering this is something I am also very careful with. (I always bring my special friend with me ;))

I think people often mistake store fronts and breeding facilities.

Store fronts are open to the public whereas breeding facilities are usually not. If the breeding facility is on your private property and is considered a home based business there are restrictions also.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Store fronts are open to the public whereas breeding facilities are usually not. If the breeding facility is on your private property and is considered a home based business there are restrictions also.

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Good point. If I were to take up snake breeding as a business and registered as a home business with my city, the home occupation permit that I am required to hold with the business license actually prohibits me from bringing people to my house to do business. This is in the interest of maintaining residential zones and preserving the "quiet enjoyment" for my neighbor's homes.

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Originally Posted by MonkeyShuttle

Melinda i have a secret clearance would that get me in lol

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No problem.

The only people I let into the room where I keep my small collection are my friends kids. They are always respectful and don't instantly think I am crazy for having a bunch of pythons as pets.

Mine are in my bedroom closet where my gun safe is. So it's a no go for people going in there lol. Also my cat only allows family in her space thank you very much. My girl is in the living room where I can easily check on her. She was my first and is still my baby. She's a normal so no one knows about what else I have. Also she's not as "valuable" as my others. This is another reason for having my Dobie. She has a bed in there and every room in the house. If I ever breed, and can build that building I want people would be too scared to go back there and rob me because she has full time access to the back yard, and would be able to go into that building too. She's been raised around snakes, cats, and other animals so knows notto hurt them. Humans, and coyotes are faor game lol.

At the end of the day if im trying to make money y not. .. u cant be scared everyone is gonna rob u .. most people that are in this business isn't gonna rob ur house .. not like were selling something thats crazy popular on the streets lol .. but I dig the fact of having strangers in ur house that weirds everyone out .. but if ur trying to make this a business and trying to make money then u gotta do what u gotta do and if im planning on spending anything over 3/400 $ on a snake to someone that lives close by u better believe I wanna see how they keep there animals so I know what im getting into .. and if it was someone from this site that wanted to purchase from me I would have no issues with letting them in my home .. I talk to u guys more then my own family I think lol ...

I am in the same boat as CoryDeLong.
I usually play a game of Q&A through text before deciding how I will handle the situation.
If I only have one or two then I might go meet someone at a location of my choice and I am always there really early.
I personally would rather not stress my animals by moving them too much and I don't like stressing myself in "situations".
I like meeting people at my house.
1-its my place and I am most comfortable in my zones
2-if the gun on my hip makes you a little uncomfortable then you might have the wrong thoughts in your mind.
3-I always have backup in a different room of my house should things not go the way I planned
4-survelence system is here for your protection and mine
5-laws are more in my favor if you are on my property should you have other thoughts in mind.

Yes, I do carry 99% of my day but the comfort of my home keeps me more focused on the client rather than whats going on around us.

No I don't let people get all feely with my collection unless I really know them.

Trust no one and always plan for the worst.:gj:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I am in the same boat as CoryDeLong.
I usually play a game of Q&A through text before deciding how I will handle the situation.
If I only have one or two then I might go meet someone at a location of my choice and I am always there really early.
I personally would rather not stress my animals by moving them too much and I don't like stressing myself in "situations".
I like meeting people at my house.
1-its my place and I am most comfortable in my zones
2-if the gun on my hip makes you a little uncomfortable then you might have the wrong thoughts in your mind.
3-I always have backup in a different room of my house should things not go the way I planned
4-survelence system is here for your protection and mine
5-laws are more in my favor if you are on my property should you have other thoughts in mind.

Yes, I do carry 99% of my day but the comfort of my home keeps me more focused on the client rather than whats going on around us.

No I don't let people get all feely with my collection unless I really know them.

Trust no one and always plan for the worst.:gj:

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He's not as handy with the trigger as I am, but he's working on it :O


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps0bef3756.jpg

We don't have that many snakes, only 17:) We keep them in our home, but I'm still pretty careful, only family or close friends and they aren't really interested so they keep it to themselves.. Buyers will be vetted for sure..
Our collection isn't that valuable money wise, but I still don't shout from the roof tops about them.
Anyone come inside my home with the wrong intentions either fly out the door or never leave..
Once our collection starts getting pretty valuable I'm getting a bazooka;)

I would never pass a negative judgment on what anyone does to secure their lives and their property. Having said that, while I was still active duty and traveling a lot, I had several chances to visit breeders both large and small from Las Vegas to Denver to Maryland. Several of those visits resulted in the purchase of an animal that was shipped to me when I got back home. Personally, I like to see the animal I'm buying before I buy it, in person. Like to see the Sire and Dam as well, when possible.

Lots of talk on this thread about security and trust. That goes both ways, which is why I like to visit breeding facilities. Just because someone has a nice website doesn't mean they aren't a flipper. Visits ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for.

Again, I would never ask for someone to compromise their sense of security just to sell a snake, but by the same token, don't ask me to compromise mine just to buy one.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I would never pass a negative judgment on what anyone does to secure their lives and their property. Having said that, while I was still active duty and traveling a lot, I had several chances to visit breeders both large and small from Las Vegas to Denver to Maryland. Several of those visits resulted in the purchase of an animal that was shipped to me when I got back home. Personally, I like to see the animal I'm buying before I buy it, in person. Like to see the Sire and Dam as well, when possible.

Lots of talk on this thread about security and trust. That goes both ways, which is why I like to visit breeding facilities. Just because someone has a nice website doesn't mean they aren't a flipper. Visits ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for.

Again, I would never ask for someone to compromise their sense of security just to sell a snake, but by the same token, don't ask me to compromise mine just to buy one.

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Flippers don't generally have pics of their snakes breeding, ovulating and laying eggs- along with pics and videos of their facility :gj:

Valid point Slim. Just to me doing that is like telling people where my expensive diamond jewelry is kept (not that I have any, much better things to spend money on). When I start breeding I'm going to have pictures/videos of my setup, a description of it, and pictures/videos of parents and all that for customers. And hopefully my frequent appearance on here put my first customers minds at ease so I can establish a rep. I've gotten some good deals and great snakes by taking a chance of some "little guys" in the hobby. No I didn't see pictures of their snake room and only one I asked for parents pics of was the axanthic pastel girl.

I bet the answers would be different if people had thousands of dollars worth of animals, with many well over $1000. To many crooks out there, so why take the chance!

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

Flippers don't generally have pics of their snakes breeding, ovulating and laying eggs- along with pics and videos of their facility :gj:

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And bad guys looking to do a home invasion Ball Python robbery while wielding a Mk-19 Grenade Launcher and carrying a ziplock bag of reptile mites generally don't belong to a well known Ball Python Forum for over 5 years just waiting for the day....

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

I bet the answers would be different if people had thousands of dollars worth of animals, with many well over $1000. To many crooks out there, so why take the chance!

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How do you know we don't ;)

Just a quick "guestimate", and we're looking at about $75K in breeding stock.

If you don't think that requires my level of security then I guess you are on a different level of comfort than I am.

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

If you don't think that requires my level of security then I guess you are on a different level of comfort than I am.

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Never said it didn't require a level of security. In fact, you should hire me to do your security. References available upon request.

SOC Rule #1 - Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that truly are dangerous...

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Originally Posted by Slim

Never said it didn't require a level of security. In fact, you should hire me to do your security..

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Lol... Thats not happeninng any time soon......

While I answered "Yes, with several exceptions," I feel that everyone's situation is different. I used to breed cats and it was common to have people come into the cattery, interact with everyone, etc. However, the chances of someone stealing a cat was very slim. Most people will pay a couple thousand for a dog but look at you like you're crazy when you say a 'pet quality' purebred cat is $500. The market isn't there to flip them like there is snakes. When I first started breeding, my corns were kept in my living room. The neighbors could even see them through the window and I lived in the ghetto. My neighbors also got to watch me run my dogs through protection training drills in the front yard. They didn't even step onto the sidewalk outside my house much less think about coming in. I would allow potential buyers into the house but at the same time, everyone who comes through my front door, close friend or complete stranger, has to meet my furry security system. I've never had an issue but then again, corns aren't nearly as valuable.

Now I live in Wisconsin, in a nice neighborhood where my neighbors are scared that there are even reptiles in the area. I have a separate snake room and 2 stepdaughters who would bring everyone through the snake room given the option. Being my collection is still small, I'm fine with people who are friends/family coming in and checking out the snakes. I don't think anything of pulling out every single one I have as they are used to it and get taken to educational programs as well. There are rules and those are 1) No scaring people with the snakes, 2) Either me or my girls take the animal out and put it back to ensure the tub is secure, 3) Only 2-3 animals out at a time, and 4) If someone gets stupid, things end there and quickly. I don't even have to enforce 4 since the girls will eat their friends alive if they don't have the well being of the animal first. As I start having baby bps to sell, most will be done at shows or online but I'm ok with people coming in, especially if it's their first snake. I know most people don't look at temperament in snakes but I've seen enough variation that that's extremely important to me. A young kid getting their first snake should not be given an animal that's high strung unless they know what they are getting into. Granted corns are more likely to strike than a bp but at the same time, it comes down to fitting the animal to the person. If it takes them coming over and handling 20+ babies to find the perfect one, then so be it. I've done it for corns and I'll do it for my bps. My goal is to have a customer that loves the animal and will get many years of enjoyment from them. In the case of an experienced owner/another breeder, then I figure they should know what they can handle. All of that being said, I do not go around saying "This snake is worth $x and that one is worth $y." When asked by people who aren't buyers, I make the judgement call on whether or not I know them well enough to trust them to start guessing the cost of my collection. Most are just curious and harmless. It comes down to common sense.