Lesser vs Fire

Hi guys,

I'm obviously new here and just really getting into ball pythons. I am looking at two different males at the moment. One is a lesser and the other is a fire. I like the looks of the lesser better, but from a breeding standpoint, I don't know which would be better to get. Any help would be appreciated. Also, which is typically the higher priced of the two? Thanks in advance!

there the same price range 150-200 depending on quality .. as far as what to get I on u fire cleans patterns up a lot .. lesser kind of washes out .. lesser is good if u wanna make lucys
me id get a fire

Thanks. That's what I was worried about. I could get both, but then I can't get the cinnamon female I'm looking at lol. Choices choices. They're running me $75-lesser, $50-fire, and $100-cinnamon. I have to limit myself on what I get due to space and financial constraints atm lol.

if I was u .. I would get the female and don't worry about the male if u plan on breeding .. u get a baby female u are waiting 3 years till she breeds a male is ready to breed in less then 6 months .. if anything get 2 females and start growing them up

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Originally Posted by JMoriarty

Hi guys,

I'm obviously new here and just really getting into ball pythons. I am looking at two different males at the moment. One is a lesser and the other is a fire. I like the looks of the lesser better, but from a breeding standpoint, I don't know which would be better to get. Any help would be appreciated. Also, which is typically the higher priced of the two? Thanks in advance!

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Have a look at all the Lesser vs Fire combos here: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/

That may help make up your mind...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Have a look at all the Lesser vs Fire combos here: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/

That may help make up your mind...

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lol just jumped on to see what those do with cinny lol .. really don't mess with cinn so I have no clue what the combos look like

i really like this article, and i always link it when people are in the process of deciding how to start:


http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2012/02...thon-breeders/

would this be your first BP? if yes, i would buy females first, males one year later. also you will need more females than males, and the females are more expensive, and because you can breed one male to several females, it makes sense to invest a bit more into the genetics of the male. so, basically, when you for example start with single gene females, i would then go for a two-gene male. maybe a firefly or a lesser pinstripe.

the problem with single-gene males is that when you breed them to single-gene females, as soon as you get your first hatchlings you will quite quickly get a double-gene male, and then you will raise it up and replace your single-gene male. so, single-gene males make themselves unnecessary quite quickly. if you breed a double gene male to a single gene female, you get more gene combinations in the hatchlings and better overall quality and it will stay interesting for much longer.

and when you consider future breeding, quality is really important. look around a lot, and find good examples of whatever morph or combo you decide to get.

cinn and lesser look a lot better then fire

but iwould go black pastel or pastel . just ur basic morphs

or a lemon blast

No, this won't be my first. I currently have a male normal and a male pastel. I don't know why I'm even looking at more males, other than the fact I like them lol. I was looking at a black pastel male too, but then I saw the lesser. I just think they're really pretty. I have to say though, you guys do have sound reasoning on the female. It makes a lot of sense. I truly do appreciate the advice. I plan on getting a cinnamon female. I suppose I could wait until she's ready before I give myself another mouth to feed.

Pass on the males. Low end males should be considered pets at this point, not breeders.


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As already said, I would get the cinny girl and then hold out for another nice female. In a year or so I would then start shopping for a male.
If you are set, I would do the lesser.

Both are good genes to have in your collection. I think Fire has better potential for combinations, but Lesser looks better on its own. However, as said by multiple people, invest in females first and wait to buy a good male later.

3 major factors come into play here. 1 which you already brought up was budget. 2 Your preferences . 3 future breeding plans or you can just play around with it like me lol. If your looking for very obvious color changes in your combo morphs I would go with a lesser that is the stronger gene. These are both co-dominant animals and their super forms are quite similar Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy Fire x Fire = Black Eyed Lucy. I would get a male morph and a 1-2 normal females like that you can produce more animals(if you have the budget, space of course and are not over whelmed by the challenge) If you are just asking our preference I would have to go with lesser because they're awesome:cool:

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Originally Posted by Manic Morphs

3 major factors come into play here. 1 which you already brought up was budget. 2 Your preferences . 3 future breeding plans or you can just play around with it like me lol. If your looking for very obvious color changes in your combo morphs I would go with a lesser that is the stronger gene. These are both co-dominant animals and their super forms are quite similar Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy Fire x Fire = Black Eyed Lucy. I would get a male morph and a 1-2 normal females like that you can produce more animals(if you have the budget, space of course and are not over whelmed by the challenge) If you are just asking our preference I would have to go with lesser because they're awesome:cool:

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Why suggest to get normal females? They're plenty of Lessers on the market...No need to breed normals anymore!!!


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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i really like this article, and i always link it when people are in the process of deciding how to start:

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2012/02...thon-breeders/

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This is probably the best article I have read on getting started in breeding ball pythons. I have read it many times over the past 2 years to keep me on track.

The only thing I kinda disagree with is that I would buy Co-Dom/Dom females earlier if you can afford them. Buying your females earlier gives them time to get to breeding size if you can afford the initial investment. I think simple single gene female Pastels, Pinstripes, Spiders, Black Pastels, Butter/Lesser/Mojave, Fires, etc... are a great starting point. I started with 0.4 Normals, 0.5 Pastels, 0.3 Spiders, 0.3 Pinstripes and 0.2 Enchis to get my simple Co-Dom/Dom projects going. They are all up to breeding size and will likely all go this year (some went last year as well already). For slightly more I think a Super Pastel female fits into any almost program well to eliminate Normal hatchlings.

Add into your collection at least a few double gene powerhouse males. I have added a Nuclear, Enchi Fire, Enchi Pastel and Sugar Fire to my program to breed this season. All are in the 700-1000g range and locking those single gene and a few double gene females. The possibility of getting a triple or quad back requires a few nice double gene males along with some single and double gene females.

Look into a project you have some passion about and start buying females that will get you there- ie.... Blue Eyed Lucy??.... get a Butter/Lesser/Mojave female for under $200 and raise her up to size. By then you can save up for a nice double/triple gene male as prices drop that you can use with that project, and other projects as well..... a 1.0 Nuclear, Pastave, ButterBee/LesserBee, etc.... any of those males could be thrown to your other single gene females (Pinstripe, Pastel, Fire, Black Pastel, etc..) to get some nice clutches back (Lemonblast, Spinners, BumbleBees, Killerbees, SuperBlasts, FireFlys, Pewters, etc...). Any one of those males will likely only cost $200-$300 by the time your females are ready to breed. This is just one example of making your purchases count in adding some variety to your breeding program. One nice healthy male can handle 4-6 females easily.

Do your homework, research, and pick your passion. Start saving and looking to work towards your goal ;)

I'm in my second season and might make a nickel this year if I am lucky. Just keep it fun and you will do great :gj:

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Why suggest to get normal females? They're plenty of Lessers on the market...No need to breed normals anymore!!!


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I would not suggest on purchasing Normals either, but I have handful that I will probably not get rid of anytime soon. I got them all for free, or a song on trades as adults. They lay good eggs, and when bred to a nice double/triple gene male it is difficult to let them go when they have paid for themselves with one egg.

I cannot wait to see to see what my favorite 0.1 Normal brings me :gj:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps0abba36e.jpg

normal females make sense, in the right context. that is, if you are not restricted when it comes to space, and dont mind producing more of the same (more of the genes that the male brings into the pairing), its fine.

but if space is really limited, and the amount of snakes you can keep is limited, and if you want to get into morphs, then normals dont help much.

Thank you guys for all your input. I decided to hold off on getting the males (unless I suddenly come into some money or something ;)). I am getting the cinnamon female. I'll be picking her up tomorrow, late morning or early afternoon.

I don't know what "goal" morph I have. Many are freaking awesome! At this point, I'm wanting to just play around with it and see what I get. I did find someone who has a supposed het ghost het atomic female for $100, but I don't know that I trust it, as it looks like a normal to me.

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Originally Posted by JMoriarty

Thank you guys for all your input. I decided to hold off on getting the males (unless I suddenly come into some money or something ;)). I am getting the cinnamon female. I'll be picking her up tomorrow, late morning or early afternoon.

I don't know what "goal" morph I have. Many are freaking awesome! At this point, I'm wanting to just play around with it and see what I get. I did find someone who has a supposed het ghost het atomic female for $100, but I don't know that I trust it, as it looks like a normal to me.

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No one is selling a Het Atomic female for $100. I'll take her for $1000 if she is available. To my knowledge Wilbanks has only sold a 0.1 Atomic to one person and no males are for sale right now..... I have been asking for one for some time now- even a 1.0 Het Atomic.

Also don't discount other breeders upgrading. They don't always advertise (so you may have to ask around a bit) but plans change, or they get better ones to replace their current breeders. You can fairly commonly find adult males, and even females that are single gene fairly cheap. I found a breeder male pewter at a show for $150 (he had him marked at $225, but at the end of the show I got him cheaper, I did not really need him, but could not pass that up)

also, I tell everyone, pick the morphs you like, try to make what you like, don't worry quite as much about the market, get what is worth it to YOU. I treat this has a hobby, and know that there is not much chance I'll actually make any money, would be happy to break even! :) Prices will always drop. These are my pets, that I may happen to get back some of my money on.

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Originally Posted by JMoriarty

Thank you guys for all your input. I decided to hold off on getting the males (unless I suddenly come into some money or something ;)). I am getting the cinnamon female. I'll be picking her up tomorrow, late morning or early afternoon.

I don't know what "goal" morph I have. Many are freaking awesome! At this point, I'm wanting to just play around with it and see what I get. I did find someone who has a supposed het ghost het atomic female for $100, but I don't know that I trust it, as it looks like a normal to me.

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Even if you suddenly come into money, I think you'll be better off saving it and getting your double or triple gene male later. Your female will need time to grow and prices keep coming down. In the fall of 2008 I thought I just had to get a pair of Mojaves, so I bought my pair and my female just got up to weight for the 2011-2012 season. I could have bought only the female and saved a year and a half or even 2 years of feeding and cleaning for the male if I had only bought the female in 2008. I also made the mistake of buying a couple of normal females. I thought that the more females I could breed my male to, the better, and I could afford 3 normals or 1 or, maybe, 2 single gene females at the time. But I failed to consider that it cost the same to feed and house a morph girl as it does a normal and that there would be so many single gene animals on the market when mine would be ready. Unless you drop your prices, you'll be caring for a lot of single gene animals that don't fit your breeding plans until they sell. I believe that was Jon's point about not getting normal females. This is a real big issue to consider for any breeder/collector, but especially a real small scale one as rack space/rodents are at a premium (this can be different if you have a male with 3 genes or more). I think you'll be much better off going a little slower and being real selective about the genes you want to work with, build up your females first (single and double gene) and then go for a powerful male you really like.

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Originally Posted by Manic Morphs

I would get a male morph and a 1-2 normal females like that you can produce more animals(if you have the budget, space of course and are not over whelmed by the challenge

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You're about 10 years too late with that advise...

That's kind of what I was discussing with my boyfriend. At the moment, everyone is in their own glass tank. You really run out of tank space fast! I think I'm going to save the money I'd spend and get a good tub system going. I'll get my cinny girl tomorrow but the rest will wait. I will have three mouths to feed as of tomorrow, until I find a buyer for my chunker of a normal male. Rats aren't cheap and space is limited. I am going to keep looking for another female though. The boyfriend feeds my obsession with the snakes, so he's not a good voice of reasoning. Thank you all for talking me off my ledge. :)

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Why suggest to get normal females? They're plenty of Lessers on the market...No need to breed normals anymore!!!


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True there are tons of lessers, It's just budget thing. 1 male lesser can breed to more normal females thus increasing the chance of getting more lesser. I only suggested it if he didn't have the money to spend on other morphs. It might only be in my area but norms go for $30 male or female that's way cheaper than getting a female of most morphs

Start off buying just single gene morph females. When a couple of them get over 1000g then you can start to think about getting a male. At that point buy the best male you can afford. Keep the best that you produce and sell the rest to feed the ones you keep. That way you are always improving your collection.

I got my cinnamon girl. She's way prettier than I was expecting. The pictures don't do her justice. She's a lot "pinker" with a pink belly. She has a sweet, laid back personality so far too. Now, I'm looking at a '12 het red female. The madness never ends!

Here's my new girl!
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo6.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo1.jpghttp://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo4.jpghttp://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo3.jpghttp://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo5.jpghttp://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...res/photo2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jay Mechtly

Start off buying just single gene morph females. When a couple of them get over 1000g then you can start to think about getting a male. At that point buy the best male you can afford. Keep the best that you produce and sell the rest to feed the ones you keep. That way you are always improving your collection.

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And in the meantime keep some cash set aside for contingencies like vet visits, or a local deal on a used hatchling rack or incubator. The prices on those don't drop year-over-year, while the prices on BP's do.

Good point. Thankfully, we have quite the selection of vets around here that will see reptiles. I'm looking at some DIY racks right now. I have an idea of what I want, but I like getting ideas.

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Originally Posted by steve_r34

there the same price range 150-200 depending on quality .. as far as what to get I on u fire cleans patterns up a lot .. lesser kind of washes out .. lesser is good if u wanna make lucys
me id get a fire

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Fires make black eyed Lucy's, lesser, butter, Russo, Mojave make blue