The New IBD Blood Test - Predictions?

The new blood test available for screening IBD is great news. Well, great news for some people.

It also represents an interesting scenario - or better yet potential scenarios.

Since IBD made the scene, the community has had a weird attitude about it. Some big name breeders went around claiming it did not even exist. An IBD mythology made the scene, complete with people mischaracterizing the disease. It was claimed pythons died immediately. It was claimed that any neurological symptoms were IBD, it was claimed it was not prevalent, it was claimed that all animals so afflicted had to display symptoms. I could go on but you get the point.

At the same time, people started posting horrendous stories of snake collections being rapidly decimated by the disease. Some of these stories were never backed up by conclusive evidence that IBD was the cause and some, by the very nature of IBD as an asymptomatic back-packer, never ruled out other diseases such as OPMV or viral meningitis. The landscape was littered with denial, misinformation and willful ignorance.

All of this was hampered by the difficulty in screening animals - either by necropsy or live biopsy. Since IBD could inhabit various organs, biopsies on live animals were a chancy bet.

But there was a group of researchers determined to continue to work on a way to screen and potentially treat the disease. Those researchers were very open about the lack of financial support from the community and also were quick to point out the fallacious facts surrounding IBD on the forums. Still, the disease was ignored.

So the first question that comes to mind is will boa breeders rush out to clear their stock? Will python breeders?

Now remember that in the past, IBD researchers have thrown out there that up to 1/3 of all boas may be asymptomatic carriers. So in reference to the first question, what does that mean if I'm in the boa business?

Now with regards to python breeders - the myth has been that IBD kills pythons immediately, even though Dr, Jacobsen himself has claimed that no one has proven that nugget. so what does that mean if I'm in the python business?

Here's my prediction - no one will rush out to clear their animals.

As time goes on, some vets and veterinary institutions will recommend the test to owners. Slowly a database will build.

Then things will get interesting.

Question to you boa and python owners - what WILL you do? How does this test affect who you buy from? Will you clear your animals?

When you take your snake in for a visit for a recurring and incurable RI, will you submit your python for the blood test?

If the researchers guesses prove true and both pythons and boas can remain asymptomatic for an indefinite period of time and perhaps a large percentage can be carriers, what will you think of the community? The community that denied the existence, in some cases willfully spread around BS facts..............

In five years, the landscape of how we buy our snakes and who we buy them from will change. Pay very close attention to this test and any resulting info that comes from it.

I am very skeptical that most people will have the test done to their collections as of right now. In a few years I think more and more people will start getting them done but only after the buyers purchase an animal and get a test done and then contact the seller with the positive test results and demand something be done. An example. Say I buy a boa from, insert random big boa breeder here, I keep boas and pythons, I then get it tested and it comes back positive for IBD I then contact the person I purchased from with those test results. Nothing is done at all by them because they are in denial so I go on here and on fauna and post about it. They then take a huge dip in sales at which time they are faced with the choice to get out of the business or to get tests done.

The biggest question that comes to my mind is what happens when that huge boa breeder with millions invested in his collection and breeding stock has results come back as positive for a large portion of his collection? Does he sell them and threaten other peoples collection, does he cull them, or does he keep them alive in a different facility and all that fun stuff? The answer IMO is that he would sell them as fast as possible and then get out of business as fast as possible. Not saying everyone is like that but looking at it from multiple points of view the person who has invested all that money and time most likely does not have the money to do so again to start from scratch so his other option is to sell it off and be out of business.

This test gives me more concern than it does to calm my nerves about getting a clean animal. I know I will be extremely cautious when purchasing now that this test is out only because I think there will be a lot of people going out of business in a few years.

I think most of the big names will not go out and get their animals tested.
Their logic being that they've been doing a good job so far without animals dying of IBD, why would they need to test now? Not to mention the concerns T&C mentioned and potential cost of testing hundreds of animals.
If a collection or facility is full of carriers and animals that are positive for IBD, I doubt a lot of the larger breeders are going to announce it publicly.


Although, ideally, I do think everyone should get their animals tested.
It's no different than getting dogs health tested.
I have Dobermans and I personally would not want to purchase an animal that is positive for DCM or vWD.

I don't expect health testing reptiles to be a standard practice for a long time.
I also do think there needs to be more research on the matter.
But in the end, I wouldn't be opposed to getting my animals tested. I think it would be easier for smaller hobbyists to test as wel.

Contrary to to the points about larger breeders not wishing to test, I think as the test becomes widespread they will have no choice at all.
Because, with wider availability and lowered cost their customers will be testing. Not all of them but, enough that inorder to not be crushed by negative opinion they will have to be seen as being pro-active in trying to produce and provide the highest quality, healthy animals.

Then again with reliable diagnoses perhaps, we will reach a point of being able to better understand the disease and even figure out how or why it may never manifest in some animals while killing others. i.e. either treatment or coping strategies could be developed.

I think those viewed as leaders in this industry, those that are often mislabeled as "big breeders", as well as those that are actually far lesser known, high volume breeders, would be wise to voluntarily step forward and have animals tested. It would set an actual precedent for small business and hobbyists of the likes that is rarely seen in terms of unity and being pro-active in recognizing and awareness of a real issue. The benefits for those more prominent names would be two fold...obviously stepping up to the plate and setting an example that could have a positive ripple effect on a significant percentage of the boa/python community, as well as, in the event of testing positive, reducing spread of the disease and just plain old saving face should any negative attention come to them down the road.

For all parties involved, not just the "big breeders", it would only be beneficial to go on the offensive and have testing done sooner than later....the likelihood of it happening, not great...

I don't see mass testing of large ball python collections becoming commonplace because of the perception that they don't tend to live for months or even years as carriers like the boas do. And, even if one ball python in a collection is a carrier and shows no signs of being infected post-QT, chances are that another BP in the rack will contract and show symptoms of the disease.

The hobbyists will be more likely to test at first. Someone with a few snakes can cover the cost more easily, especially if they only test the snakes they have obtained over the prior few years - again, assuming that it's very rare that carriers don't show symptoms in that timeframe. The hobbyist may also only purchase 1-2 new boas each year, so having the test done as part of the QT process isn't a wallet-breaker. As an example I only have five BCI's total with plans for just one more this summer, so it likely wouldn't be a big expense to have them all done.

Anyone in the business will have to weigh the costs and benefits of testing versus not. A few have been touched on: taking a hit to the value of the collection, having to cull or isolate IBD+ animals, the damage to your reputation if you sell an IBD+ animal and the buyer blasts that all over the various BOI's, etc. Breeders may decide it to test just the animals that are up for sale as well a new arrivals as the most cost-effective way to protect themselves.

Something I haven't seen is a potential price range for the test, as well as the error rates for false positives and false negatives, as that will also play into whether or not the test's use becomes widespread. If the test is around $25, shows IBD+ 100% of the time, and IBD- 99% (meaning there's a 1% chance your snake has it even with an IBD- test result) then I'd be more likely to test my collection than if the test is $100, shows IBD+ 90%, and IBD- 75%.

Finally, if I were handling WC imports straight off the plane then they would all be tested as part of the intake process.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I don't see mass testing of large ball python collections becoming commonplace because of the perception that they don't tend to live for months or even years as carriers like the boas do. And, even if one ball python in a collection is a carrier and shows no signs of being infected post-QT, chances are that another BP in the rack will contract and show symptoms of the disease.

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There is no proof that balls or other pythons cannot live indefinitely and asymptomatically with the disease. The researchers have stated this - even in correspondence to members of this forum . There is no proof that IBD kills balls quickly or that they come down with it easier.

The early stories of IBD wiping out whole collections were often never accompanied by testing and were spread through Kraplan's site and though other less than reliable avenues. One of the most famous cases was later proven to be meningitis. Another early story was first reported as IBD - a necropsy confirmed it in a deceased boa, but subsequent animals died, including a couple of elapids, some vipers and colubrids. What never made the forums was the fact that OPMV was later ruled the cause of the mass die-offs. The several boas who tested IBD positive were probably just asymptomatic carriers.

My encounter with IBD involved two boas that never showed any symptoms. One was being tested for it as part of a screening to see why he wasn't eating. While I euthanized both snakes, neither snake ever developed full blown symptoms.

Another friend of mine also had a full blown case of OPMV in his QT room. It wiped him out. Again, in the early part of the illness, three boas tested positive for IBD. But, his mass die off were due to OPMV and the symptoms his boas were displaying were consistent with same.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Finally, if I were handling WC imports straight off the plane then they would all be tested as part of the intake process.

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Why? Is there any proof that this disease is found in wild boids? It has been found in wild vipers, but not boids.

Let's mix things up a bit. It has been theorized that a certain percentage of boids may carry be natural carriers for the disease and on occasion - may get sick. If this proves to be the case - that a certain percentage a natural carriers, how (if at all) will that change the hobby?

Probably not at all...

To illustrate, let's look at Demodex mites in dogs. All dogs have Demodex mites burrowed under their skin. Newborn puppies contract it from their mothers at birth. However, only a small percentage of dogs are allergic to the mites. This small percentage develop Demodectic Mange, which presents as small areas of hair loss that, unless treated, will progress to complete hair loss and sores on the entire surface of the animal.

If there are boas that are asymptomatic carriers, they would be like the normal dogs…nobody freaks out about demodex until it becomes an issue, and even then it is only a problem for the symptomatic animals.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Probably not at all...

To illustrate, let's look at Demodex mites in dogs. All dogs have Demodex mites burrowed under their skin. Newborn puppies contract it from their mothers at birth. However, only a small percentage of dogs are allergic to the mites. This small percentage develop Demodectic Mange, which presents as small areas of hair loss that, unless treated, will progress to complete hair loss and sores on the entire surface of the animal.

If there are boas that are asymptomatic carriers, they would be like the normal dogs…nobody freaks out about demodex until it becomes an issue, and even then it is only a problem for the symptomatic animals.

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I've been trying to make this point for awhile, but a valid comparison has escaped me.

Very well put....

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

There is no proof that balls or other pythons cannot live indefinitely and asymptomatically with the disease. The researchers have stated this - even in correspondence to members of this forum . There is no proof that IBD kills balls quickly or that they come down with it easier.

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Which is why I said that due to the perception that BP's aren't asymptomatic carriers, people would be more likely to start testing their boas first. Otherwise it would take several people willing to admit that they had a BP that tested IBD+ many months ago, and it was still alive and asymptomatic, and the test wasn't a false positive.

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Is there any proof that this disease is found in wild boids?

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If I'm importing to re-sell then I would want proof that it isn't present. With an established breeder collection of clean animals you know the babies are clean.

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Let's mix things up a bit. It has been theorized that a certain percentage of boids may carry be natural carriers for the disease and on occasion - may get sick. If this proves to be the case - that a certain percentage a natural carriers, how (if at all) will that change the hobby?

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I think it would depend on the percentage that are carriers.

Demodectic Mange isn't really comparable to IBD - while all dogs have the mites, the few that react to them can be treated and recover. OTOH there isn't a cure for IBD.

You'd be surprised the number of Demodex cases we see at animal shelters (and vet clinics) that are past the treatable stage.

Besides, if there is a large increase in the IBD incidence rates, there will be more effort placed on getting it under control medically. There are already groups that have started work on it...I'm sure they didn't have a cure for Demodex when it first was isolated either.

Anoter suitable example would be Streptococcus pyrogenes that lives on our skin. Most of us have no issue with it: we get a cut, we heal. Most of us even have the pathogenic form living in our throats. It's only certain people or certain environmental triggers that cause Strep Throat or Necrotizing Fasciitis; otherwise people aren't running for the hills over these things.

Either way, we will have to wait until it happens to react to it

I'm so confused now. I thought IBD was a death sentence to a collection. I thought that boas suppress it better and that pythons will die of it in months. So now pretty much those are myths and we really don't know anything about it? And that a lot of those wipe outs of collections have come from other things and that many animals have it and don't spread it or express it?

I'd like to get my new boa girl tested just because. I'll have to look into if it's offered close by.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

You'd be surprised the number of Demodex cases we see at animal shelters (and vet clinics) that are past the treatable stage.

Besides, if there is a large increase in the IBD incidence rates, there will be more effort placed on getting it under control medically. There are already groups that have started work on it...I'm sure they didn't have a cure for Demodex when it first was isolated either.

Anoter suitable example would be Streptococcus pyrogenes that lives on our skin. Most of us have no issue with it: we get a cut, we heal. Most of us even have the pathogenic form living in our throats. It's only certain people or certain environmental triggers that cause Strep Throat or Necrotizing Fasciitis; otherwise people aren't running for the hills over these things.

Either way, we will have to wait until it happens to react to it

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People are so accustomed to certain ways of thinking that they never look at alternative possibilities. Some people may look at an answer to the asymptomatic carrier question as potential a death knell for the boid portion of the Hobby, but I beg to differ.

The question may not be "What percentage of the boid population is asymptomatic?" but rather "Why do some snakes carry, but are never affected by the disease?" What if THAT question can be answered?

The more animals that are tested, the faster we will get answers to many many questions. I no longer have pythons or boas, but if I did, I would test them and hope that the data goes towards a database being built to better understand this disease.

Doesn't matter - I'm calling my shot again, here and now: no big breeders are going to rush out to have their animals tested.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Doesn't matter - I'm calling my shot again, here and now: no big breeders are going to rush out to have their animals tested.

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How about resellers, importers, and drop shippers? Places like Outback, LLL, Big Apple, Underground, Reptiles by Mack, etc. have a different level of risk than a breeder.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

How about resellers, importers, and drop shippers? Places like Outback, LLL, Big Apple, Underground, Reptiles by Mack, etc. have a different level of risk than a breeder.

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Nope, nope, nope and nope.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

How about resellers, importers, and drop shippers? Places like Outback, LLL, Big Apple, Underground, Reptiles by Mack, etc. have a different level of risk than a breeder.

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The majority of larger operations will probably just ignore it until their sales take a big enough hit to warrant the risk. We'll know who the good guys truly are when we see who cares enough about their own animals and the welfare of their customer's collections to get the tests done before pressures mount.

I wonder how much this test will cost. I think that will be one of the largest factors. If it costs 100 dollars for the first animal and then 10 dollars for additional animals I'd have my entire collection tested. But, if it costs 200.00 per animal, then that is a LOT of money.

I emailed and asked for pricing. While the research center has prices for various services and tests listed, there wasn't one that jumped out at me as IBD screening. Or if it's an easy test as the article stated, maybe it's something local vets can do in-house.

Cost is $100 per sample plus whatever your vet would charge to draw blood and ship it to the lab. The lab fee includes both the H&E and the IHC blood tests.
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ions/boid-ibd/

Based on the fee I don't see mass testing becoming the norm, unless someone is trying to clear a collection due to a suspected IBD diagnosis and/or death of one of the snakes in it.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Cost is $100 per sample plus whatever your vet would charge to draw blood and ship it to the lab. The lab fee includes both the H&E and the IHC blood tests.
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ions/boid-ibd/

Based on the fee I don't see mass testing becoming the norm, unless someone is trying to clear a collection due to a suspected IBD diagnosis and/or death of one of the snakes in it.

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Thanks for looking into that. I agree, at that price it's still too high. Although I would imagine the bulk of the cost would come from the vet who would likely charge 200 or so do draw the blood and mail the sample

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

You'd be surprised the number of Demodex cases we see at animal shelters (and vet clinics) that are past the treatable stage.

Besides, if there is a large increase in the IBD incidence rates, there will be more effort placed on getting it under control medically. There are already groups that have started work on it...I'm sure they didn't have a cure for Demodex when it first was isolated either.

Anoter suitable example would be Streptococcus pyrogenes (its pyogenes) that lives on our skin. Most of us have no issue with it: we get a cut, we heal. Most of us even have the pathogenic form living in our throats. It's only certain people or certain environmental triggers that cause Strep Throat or Necrotizing Fasciitis; otherwise people aren't running for the hills over these things.

Either way, we will have to wait until it happens to react to it

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Epidermal bacterial fauna is a bit different than an unknown potentially fatal virus (or whatever else IBD is suspected of being)...especially considering S. pyogenes is one of only hundreds of varying strains/species/types of bacteria known to naturally colonize humans and a large % of mammals.

If IBD is a virus you might want to consider using another viral analogy instead of a bacterial one (apples to oranges here comes to mind)