What is the difference between black pastel and cinnamon?

Is this the same as the butter vs lesser thing, where there is really no way to tell them apart? Or is there a real difference?

BTW, by tell them apart, I mean given a snake in question, any other known breeding stock you want, any number of generations and breeding cycles, is there a way you can PROVE one or the other?

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...k-pastels.html

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...ess-falls.html

The color is for sure very different...and black pastels tend to have a busier pattern, and result in busier combos.

the color of the super form is different, and thats the most obvious difference.

Butter and lesser are 2 different lines of the same gene, whereas Cinnamon and Black Pastel are actually 2 different genes. That's why the supers look different.

Even if you could not tell the differences between the patterns, the coloration differences between the black pastel and the cinnamon would jump right out at you.

Here is my 2013 black pastel female I got from Brian Breikss

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...pse22d30f0.jpg

And here is one of the cinnamons I hatched out last year

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...o2_8-22-12.jpg

And here is my black pewter (black pastel x pastel) locked with my female pewter (cinnamon x pastel)

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9a8b1603.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Butter and lesser are 2 different lines of the same gene, whereas Cinnamon and Black Pastel are actually 2 different genes. That's why the supers look different.

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Further research shows I may have spoken out of turn...can someone confirm this?? Are Super Cinnamons actually genetically different than Super Black Pastels??

They are different mutations. However, they are allelic, which is why they are so similar. The supers are different. But both are compatible to make a homozygous form.

If you keep looking at examples, you will learn the differences.
In my personal opinion, I think quality examples look totally different.
They have different colors and patterns.
One of the main black pastel traits are the squiggles in their alien head pattern.
Cinnies are more reddish brown in hue.

Black Pastel:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lHYW4CLelY...Y/s1600/22.jpg

Cinnamon:
http://www.ballpython777.com/cinnamon/cin1.jpg

Here's a comparison picture of them right next to each other

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/...psacabc268.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

They are different mutations. However, they are allelic, which is why they are so similar. The supers are different. But both are compatible to make a homozygous form.

If you keep looking at examples, you will learn the differences.
In my personal opinion, I think quality examples look totally different.
They have different colors and patterns.
One of the main black pastel traits are the squiggles in their alien head pattern.
Cinnies are more reddish brown in hue.

Black Pastel:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lHYW4CLelY...Y/s1600/22.jpg

Cinnamon:
http://www.ballpython777.com/cinnamon/cin1.jpg

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^^ this.

If I can't tell at first glance if a snake is black pastel or cinnamon, then it's not good enough to be in my collection. When you have good examples of the two morphs (like pictured above), then it's very obvious that there is a huge difference. When they are poor quality, then you will have a harder time telling them apart.

If you have a homozygous animal from cinnamon x black pastel parents and breed that to a normal, the resulting clutch have obvious cinnamons and black pastels? The punnet square says yes, but i don't know how the actual offspring would look like. Since the genes come from a single homozygous animal, maybe it will mix up the traits in the offspring. Like a cinnamon with squigles for example? I wish somebody who has done it before can share actual results.

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Originally Posted by J.P.

If you have a homozygous animal from cinnamon x black pastel parents and breed that to a normal, the resulting clutch have obvious cinnamons and black pastels? The punnet square says yes, but i don't know how the actual offspring would look like. Since the genes come from a single homozygous animal, maybe it will mix up the traits in the offspring. Like a cinnamon with squigles for example? I wish somebody who has done it before can share actual results.

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You will get half cinnamons and half black pastels. It shouldn't be a mix of traits like that. That's not how the mutations work. Its either a black pastel or a cinny. You will be able to tell the differences.

Its like Lesser Mojave blue eyed leucistics. They produce half Lessers and half Mojaves. You can still tell the difference in the offspring.

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that is good to know. I want a black snake and prefer the look of cinny x black pastel over super cinnamon but would have gone super cinnamon if not for your reply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.P.

that is good to know. I want a black snake and prefer the look of cinny x black pastel over super cinnamon but would have gone super cinnamon if not for your reply.

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For a more black snake, you can also try a super black pastel.
The super cinny is more of a brown tinted snake than black.

Yeah, but i already have some cinnamons, so i'd only have to add a black pastel. The super black pastel would be next once i produce more of them. Thanks

Is this a cinny? http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/6ydagahy.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/yjenyhep.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/ame5aze6.jpg


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tephillips06

Is this a cinny?

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Yes. Looks like one to me.

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I saw there were some color differences, but they did not seem all THAT different, and with normal, and many morphs there can be quite a lot of variations, and I am just making sure it is actually something different, and not just variations.

Also when mixed with other things, it also starts making it difficult to tell what exactly is what. So any opinions on this little guy?
Should be butter and black pewter
More pics here
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/?path=...ol=3&MaxRow=40


http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/pets/s...r/img_3309.jpg
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/pets/s...r/img_3327.jpg
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/pets/s...r/img_3330.jpg
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/pets/s...r/img_3332.jpg

when mixed with a bunch of other stuff, everything sooner or later gets difficult to tell apart from everything else :)

the thing is, you can tell apart the super forms and you can tell apart the single-gene BPs and it holds true for some combos as well. so its different morphs.

sure, there will be combos where you can no longer tell it apart, but these exist for different genes as well. one drastic example: super bamboo, bamboo lesser, bamboo mojave and bamboo mystic all look absolutely identical. but if you dont know what it is from the records and pairings that produced it, you can still prove it out and figure out whats inside by breeding it.

that being said, the one in the picture, could be black pastel or could be cinnamon. i really cant tell. but this is only a problem when in the genetics of both mom and dad combined, both cinnamon and black pastel are present. if the breeding records do not reveal it, breed it to anything that doesnt have cinnamon or black pastel in it, and the chances are really good that you get some hatchlings that confirm one or the other. lesser/butter has a strong influence, but if you breed it and one of the hatchlings is a single-gene of cinnamon or black pastel, or you hatch a pewter or black pewter, you will know.

with genes that really are the same, thats not possible. once you mix them, you can no longer tell them apart. when you mix lesser and butter, you are lost in the woods, and probarbly end up calling them all lessers. or butters. when you mix lesser and mojave, breeding will allow you to seperate it out again.

I have both, a cinnamon and a black pastel. You should see a "truer" black with black pastels and with cinnamons, you will see a reddish tint. That's how I tell the difference. :)

Personally, I like super black pastel over super cinnamon.

great subtle color morphs.... BTW, I'm partially color blind!!! :)
I just got that little boy, and seller sold him as a butter black pewter. I really only needed the butter (going for BELS, and I could pretty much tell the butter was in there). I also already have 2 pewters so assuming he was correct, I will have both floating around :)

Thanks for all the info and pics.

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Originally Posted by yzguy

What is the difference between black pastel and cinnamon? ?

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Opinions!

Hi! I'm kinda new here, can someone help me please.. what morph is this? is this a pewter? or what? thanks :)https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...57400194_o.jpghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...77542156_o.jpg

without history, it can be difficult to tell, but it does look pewterish to me.

I would also say pewter.

BTW I'm surprised no one mentioned it in the prior discussion, but super black pastel, super cinny, and 8-ball (cinny x black pastel) have a higher than normal risk of producing duck-bill or kinked/deformed hatchlings. Just something to keep in mind if you plan to try to breed them.

Here is another picture :)

I'm thinking if it is a black pewter.. because of the messier or busier patterm it got. and it really looks different from my male pewter.

please help me, i'm really really confused. the seller didn't tell me the lineage. and i think the seller just bought it from another person

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...78042864_o.jpg