My first season - awesome pairings

This is my first breeding season with ballpythons. I got my first ball one year ago in may, and I was stuck right away, from the very moment I held him for the first time I knew I was going in deep before I was done. Within the next few months I laid out a plan on what morphs I wanted to breed, what colors I liked and where to start.

This is my pairings so far:


Silver Lesser:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...53717240_n.jpg

x Bumblebee:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...10465564_n.jpg

Locked:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...40886449_n.jpg


Proven Het albino:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...13142593_n.jpg

With Albino male, locked:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...54087611_n.jpg


Spinnerblast x Awesome Spider, locked;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...07141444_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...25953122_n.jpg

The spinnerblast are also seeing the lesser male, but he is shy, she is skittish, and they didn't like each other very much. The young lesser wasn't self confident enough to get her going so to say, my spider on the other hand is 7 years old so he has no such problems, the lesser is only 1 year old.

I figured it was better to breed her at all then to miss out on a whole season on her, she is a spinnerblast so I don't mind making some of those either.
A queen spin would be nice though <3 She will be seeing more of the lesser now that she's not a virgin any more. Hopefully she won't be as skittish from now on.

I also have an insanely nice butterfire male and a spinner female, both too small to breed this year though. A very exciting start non the less, I can hardly wait until the eggs get here! The het albino female and the bumblebee female both look huge! The het albino laid six eggs last year, the 3 year old bumblebee is a virgin (or was, rofl).

U got a fun couple of months ahead of u

Your lesser is fantastic. You do know that spider to spider is not exactly a great pairing tho right?

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Nice! Hope you get an albino out of the albino x het albino!

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

Your lesser is fantastic. You do know that spider to spider is not exactly a great pairing tho right?

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Since when? That is completely false and until someone provides actual proof, as in clutch after clutch after clutch with poor results, then it will remain so. There has been NOTHING to point to spider x spider being a bad pairing and I have in the past done that pairing with no issues and have seen many other clutches from spider x spider with no issues.

I really adore that silver lesser, just gorgeous. I hope you get some awesome babies from them. :gj:

Congrats! Good looking first season you have going.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

Since when? That is completely false and until someone provides actual proof, as in clutch after clutch after clutch with poor results, then it will remain so. There has been NOTHING to point to spider x spider being a bad pairing and I have in the past done that pairing with no issues and have seen many other clutches from spider x spider with no issues.

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Well then you can go ahead and go for it until you get enough proof to satisfy youself. Ill be over here not producing lethal homozygous forms. Whatever works for you!

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

Well then you can go ahead and go for it until you get enough proof to satisfy youself. Ill be over here not producing lethal homozygous forms. Whatever works for you!

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Please show me one clutch that produced the "lethal" homozygous. Just one. It does not exist. It is purely speculation. As a matter of fact Kevin from NERD who first proved the spider gene and has more experience than anyone else with has come out and stated that spider x spider is in no way lethal.

Spider to spider is not lethal. It can however make the offspring wobble more...

The flipside of that is also true. If spider to spider can produce viable homozygous forms, then I would expect someone to have produced them by now, and be willing to cop to it.

I really dont want to derail this thread into a big argument. Ill just give my opinion and leave it at that.

The jag mutation in carpet pythons operates identically to the spider gene in ball pythons (huge pattern reduction, neurological impairment). Jag has been proven homozygous lethal. Most eggs never come full term, a small percentage do and either fail to pip or die within 24 hours. A viable homozygous spider has never been produced that the public has been made aware of. To me the parallels are pretty obvious. Super motley boa constrictors are in a similar vein. Ive drawn my own conclusions, not saying anyone else should do the same.

This is an arguement that will never be proven one way or the other. There just isnt enough publicly available data to make any conclusions one way or the other, and I doubt there ever will be. You do you, ill do me.

Peace

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

The flipside of that is also true. If spider to spider can produce viable homozygous forms, then I would expect someone to have produced them by now, and be willing to cop to it.

I really dont want to derail this thread into a big argument. Ill just give my opinion and leave it at that.

The jag mutation in carpet pythons operates identically to the spider gene in ball pythons (huge pattern reduction, neurological impairment). Jag has been proven homozygous lethal. Most eggs never come full term, a small percentage do and either fail to pip or die within 24 hours. A viable homozygous spider has never been produced that the public has been made aware of. To me the parallels are pretty obvious. Super motley boa constrictors are in a similar vein. Ive drawn my own conclusions, not saying anyone else should do the same.

This is an arguement that will never be proven one way or the other. There just isnt enough publicly available data to make any conclusions one way or the other, and I doubt there ever will be. You do you, ill do me.

Peace

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Just to point it out... There is no super spider. For some reason it just does not exist. There was one clutch where someone claimed to have produced a white snake from a pair of spiders but nothing else at all.

Congrats! Hope you get a few nice clutches out of your pairings! :gj:

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Originally Posted by TheLuftGator

I really adore that silver lesser, just gorgeous. I hope you get some awesome babies from them. :gj:

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Thank you! His mom was from africa, so he is a bit special! Hoping to get something unique from that guy! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

The flipside of that is also true. If spider to spider can produce viable homozygous forms, then I would expect someone to have produced them by now, and be willing to cop to it.

I really dont want to derail this thread into a big argument. Ill just give my opinion and leave it at that.

The jag mutation in carpet pythons operates identically to the spider gene in ball pythons (huge pattern reduction, neurological impairment). Jag has been proven homozygous lethal. Most eggs never come full term, a small percentage do and either fail to pip or die within 24 hours. A viable homozygous spider has never been produced that the public has been made aware of. To me the parallels are pretty obvious. Super motley boa constrictors are in a similar vein. Ive drawn my own conclusions, not saying anyone else should do the same.

This is an arguement that will never be proven one way or the other. There just isnt enough publicly available data to make any conclusions one way or the other, and I doubt there ever will be. You do you, ill do me.

Peace

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

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I do not believe there are lethal super spiders. If there were we would see a great decrease of number of fertile eggs that hatch out in pairings that have spider x spider, and this have not been happening.

You can't compare genes from another specie with ballpythons since their genetics are way different, thus they are different species, also you must take into consideration that a coloration can be the result of several different mutations on different parts of their genes. There could be 20 gene combos or singular mutations that produces the same looking result, like BEL's.
Not all BEL's have the same mutation making them look white, but they do look white as a end result. So to say that 'this other specie have a lethal gene so this morph in this other specie that kinda looks like it must be the same' that is not accurate or logically thinking.

There have been so many spider combo matings so far, none that I've seen with decreased number of eggs or hatched babies, so that is purely a myth. Also since there is no super form of spider you can not have two spider genes that would make the wobble worse, you will however get a higher percentage of spider morphs in the clutch.

I would have preferred to mate the lesser to this female, but she rejected him and he didn't fight her on it, so I will use my spider and hope for a nice spinnerblast male for myself instead.

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Originally Posted by PghBall

Congrats! Hope you get a few nice clutches out of your pairings! :gj:

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Thank you! :)

Also, sorry guys for the late replies! I forgot to add thread to my watch list, rofl! :) Hoping for some cute babies, wouldn't mind some triple gene combos on my first season!

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

Since when? That is completely false and until someone provides actual proof, as in clutch after clutch after clutch with poor results, then it will remain so. There has been NOTHING to point to spider x spider being a bad pairing and I have in the past done that pairing with no issues and have seen many other clutches from spider x spider with no issues.

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I think what he meant was you see very likely to throw normals with spider x spider pairing, it's like a spider x normal pairing.

My bumblebee laid six good eggs the 25th of mars, no slugs, nice red veins in the eggs :) So far all of them are doing great. They were 96 grams each on average.

Waiting for the het. Albino female to lay now, she was due two days before the bumblebee, so for almost two weeks she have had me on my toes. She is fussing around now though, and I suspect she might have a decent, if not large clutch on the way. She laid six eggs last year (her first year).

Here is my bee girl and the eggs :) Pairing was Lesser x Bumblebee, it was this females first clutch as well as my first clutch ever. Hoping for a Queenbee~~

http://d.facdn.net/art/kirrow/139579...eggs-small.jpg

these are some nice locks, i hope you will get nice hatchlings :)


about spider x spider, well, if the super form is lethal, it obviously wont hatch. if its mysteriously absent, what does that mean, other than it obviously doesnt hatch.

i think spider to spider is perfectly fine, if you can live with 33% non-spiders and 66% spider combos and a 25% drop in the number of eggs. i mean, you would expect 25% non-spiders, 50% spiders, and 25% nothing / undefined. but since you dont get the mysteriously absent super spider, it comes down to 33% normals and 66% spiders. thats what you get when you cross out a box in a 2x2 punnett square. and all sexually reproducing species with a diploid set of chromosomes are basically the same, the same is going on in most species, including humans.

if you use ultrasound to count the amount of tiny unfertilized follicles, and compare that to the amount of fully formed eggs you later get in the clutch, is it a match? or are there more follicles than turn into fully formed eggs? i mean, in general, in any breeding. maybe you dont even get a drop in fertility, maybe some other process saves the day.

either way, the stakes seem low, no animals are harmed. worst case is that some people decide to go for these pairings to get lots of spider combos in a clutch, even if it means that the incubator is a little bit less full. no harm is being done. you surely can get some nice clutches that way.

Thank you for your well wishes :D

I also agree to a 100% about the spider part. Since the mother is a spinnerblast, I can still get that, and a tripple gene isn't bad at all, and since the male is a handsome boy I sure wouldn't mind some handsome, possibly striped babies from him. He has had one clutch before, and I've seen pictures of an adult female, his daughter, and she is partially striped, but her stripes aren't as thick as his. I've had the lesser in with the spinnerblast for most part of the winter, hoping for a lock, but they really, really don't fancy each other xD I think the spider will get that clutch....although...a queen spin would be sweeeet~~

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

these are some nice locks, i hope you will get nice hatchlings :)


about spider x spider, well, if the super form is lethal, it obviously wont hatch. if its mysteriously absent, what does that mean, other than it obviously doesnt hatch.

i think spider to spider is perfectly fine, if you can live with 33% non-spiders and 66% spider combos and a 25% drop in the number of eggs. i mean, you would expect 25% non-spiders, 50% spiders, and 25% nothing / undefined. but since you dont get the mysteriously absent super spider, it comes down to 33% normals and 66% spiders. thats what you get when you cross out a box in a 2x2 punnett square. and all sexually reproducing species with a diploid set of chromosomes are basically the same, the same is going on in most species, including humans.

if you use ultrasound to count the amount of tiny unfertilized follicles, and compare that to the amount of fully formed eggs you later get in the clutch, is it a match? or are there more follicles than turn into fully formed eggs? i mean, in general, in any breeding. maybe you dont even get a drop in fertility, maybe some other process saves the day.

either way, the stakes seem low, no animals are harmed. worst case is that some people decide to go for these pairings to get lots of spider combos in a clutch, even if it means that the incubator is a little bit less full. no harm is being done. you surely can get some nice clutches that way.

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