Would you pay more for a ball python or boa with a recent clean IBD test?

With the news that there's a fairly simple blood test for IBD available for boas and ball pythons, would you pay more for a snake with a recent clean test?

What is the cost of it?

I would say not. Most breeders are not going to pay to have all of their offspring tested and then again what good is a piece of paper? Look how many "papered" hets are out there ;)

Depends on the risk and the cost. At the moment the risk of IBD in a BP from a good breeder has got to be close to 0% and the cost of the test will probably add at the least a few hundred to the animal.

This must be something new? The last I've heard is that the only good test for IBD was during a necropsy.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This must be something new? The last I've heard is that the only good test for IBD was during a necropsy.

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News hit yesterday: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...test-for-I-B-D
For the sake of argument, a simple blood test should be in the $25-50 range.

No IBD has been shown to be such a swift killer of python speices that it would be pointless.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I would say not. Most breeders are not going to pay to have all of their offspring tested and then again what good is a piece of paper? Look how many "papered" hets are out there ;)

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Man is this true! Papers on hets are worthless unless they're from Ralph Davis or something. Would think people would just start making their own "lab results".

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Depends on the risk and the cost. At the moment the risk of IBD in a BP from a good breeder has got to be close to 0% and the cost of the test will probably add at the least a few hundred to the animal.

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Considering that IBD wasn't detectable before the onset if symptoms, I'd say that percentage is a bit higher than that. It's also possible for a snake to be infected, but not show symptoms.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

No IBD has been shown to be such a swift killer of python speices that it would be pointless.

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I think it's valuable from a prevention standpoint. As I said, considering how common it is for infected snakes not to show symptoms, even a 90 day quarantine may not keep an infected animal from spreading IBD to a collection. That's particularly true when adding a boa to a collection of BP'S. IBD testing along with proper quarantine is good long term insurance IMO.


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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

I think it's valuable from a prevention standpoint. As I said, considering how common it is for infected snakes not to show symptoms, even a 90 day quarantine may not keep an infected animal from spreading IBD to a collection. That's particularly true when adding a boa to a collection of BP'S. IBD testing along with proper quarantine is good long term insurance IMO.

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How then do you prove which animal is the origional carrier to hold a breeder accountable for it once all your snakes are dead?

I think it would mean more to me to know that the animal came from a "clean" collection... i.e. the breeder tested all of their breeding stock and they were all clean.

I don't have any experience with this disease, so I'll have to do more research before I vote in the poll.

I think I would be more likely to just have the animal tested after purchase (while in QT). I don't see any way to verify that the test actually goes with the snake you are purchasing, so I'd rather just have it tested myself.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

How then do you prove which animal is the origional carrier to hold a breeder accountable for it once all your snakes are dead?

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I guess I was a little unclear on that point. Basically, having a snake come from a breeder with papers wouldn't be worth more. The test its self is useful. I don't know that you LEGALLY would be able to hold a breeder accountable.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

I think I would be more likely to just have the animal tested after purchase (while in QT). I don't see any way to verify that the test actually goes with the snake you are purchasing, so I'd rather just have it tested myself.

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This.


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As this test becomes more popular, some things are going to be clarified.

Remember, in past studies, up to 1/3 of "clean" boas in an IBD control group tested positive as asymptomatic IBD carriers. Boa breeders should embrace this test and work with Dr. Jacobsen and other researchers to certify their breeding animals as clear. But I predict that they won't.

Doesn't really matter - because what we think of IBD today and what we think of IBD as screening becomes more acute will change.

In a hobby where most people DON'T take their animals to the vet, and in a hobby where most vets treat reptiles without having the proper requisite knowledge - the early reports of IBD wiping out entire collections is specious. Many of those accounts never identified IBD as the causative agent - it was always ASSumed. In some cases, they were later identified as OPMV or even viral meningitis - quietly.

In time, this test will clarify exactly how many snakes - both python and boa - are asymptomatic carriers and what the actual carrier rate is.

As usual Skip, well said. :gj:

Personally, I plan to BE one of those breeders who embraces this test and has all their stock tested - whether part of my breeding groups or not (if its in my collection, it will be tested). Unfortunately, the test isn't available in my area yet. However, it will be eventually. Until then, I'll practice buying from reputable breeders only and a strict q/t of at least 90 days.

But I wouldn't expect for someone to pay more for one of my babies just because the parents were "certified" as clear of IBD. I would do the testing for my own knowledge and peace of mind. I could show buyers the parents' and my stock's test results if they wanted to see it, but that would just be part of the general information pack I would give at the time of sale.

To answer the original question, I don't think I'd pay more for a boa that is already "certified" clear. Who administered the test? How long ago was the test done? What has the snake been exposed to between the time the test was done and the time I purchased it?

If someone else did the testing, it doesn't mean a whole lot to me. So why would I pay more? I will test each snake I buy afterwards during it's q/t time. If a test result comes back positive, well, among other issues of course, I'd discuss the matter with the seller at that point. :gj:

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Originally Posted by treeboa

Man is this true! Papers on hets are worthless unless they're from Ralph Davis or something. Would think people would just start making their own "lab results".

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That is a bit of a ridiculous statement. While there are a handful of dishonest folks out there, the overwhelming majority are on the up and up. Having a big name does not ensure honesty, and not having one does not ensure dishonesty.

If I kept/bred boas, I would weigh having this done, and if it were a reasonable price per animal, why not have it done. Problem is, when if a good chunk of your breeding colony comes back as carriers? Are you going to cull them? Up to this point, you really cannot blame the person you got it from if you have an asymptomatic carrier, so what will you do? One of the biggest barriers will be that folks do not want to have answer this question.

I laud this as a very important step to wiping out the condition, but putting it in to effect will a whole other issue.

As far as paying extra, I think the cost of the test suffices as any added on charge.

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

That is a bit of a ridiculous statement. While there are a handful of dishonest folks out there, the overwhelming majority are on the up and up. Having a big name does not ensure honesty, and not having one does not ensure dishonesty.

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Not to jack but I hate to disagree with you here. There are too many people trying to make a quick buck and think claiming "HET" to get a higher price. I am not saying they are all crooked but lets be honest. Any written document can be faked.
Not to just jab the little guys but I had a collection I was keeping for an unnamed member here and I sexed all of the snakes and labeled them when I took in the collection. There was a Fire in question because this female that came from BHB had two nice big hemis :O Mistakes can be made but paperwork is not trustable.

My bold prediction:

The number of asymptomatic carriers uncovered by this test will shock the crap out of a lot of people. In time, as the test becomes more popular, you will need to screen your collection in order to move a snake to anyone who knows what IBD is.

If I were a boa breeder I would get ahead of the curve and clear my animals now and not do business without anyone who can produce the paperwork showing their stock is clean.

If people are serious about wiping out IBD they will embrace this test............another bold prediction, the bigger names will pay lip service to this test; namely mouth how great it is............what a break through it is.........blah, blah, blah.

But they won't test their animals.

Who's gonna step up and prove me wrong?

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If I kept/bred boas, I would weigh having this done, and if it were a reasonable price per animal, why not have it done. Problem is, when if a good chunk of your breeding colony comes back as carriers? Are you going to cull them? Up to this point, you really cannot blame the person you got it from if you have an asymptomatic carrier, so what will you do? One of the biggest barriers will be that folks do not want to have answer this question.

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Which brings up another elephant in the room. Quite a few respondents said they wouldn't trust the seller's test results and would get their own done on their boas shortly after they arrived. As was pointed out, BP's most likely would die within the QT period if infected with IBD while boas can carry it for years.

So, hypothetically, what if your new boa does pop up as a carrier? Naturally you inform the seller, and if you're dealing with an ethical seller you will be able to return the snake. The seller should lock down his collection, test every boid, cull and/or isolate infected snakes, etc. BUT the herp world attracts its share of scoundrels, people who won't accept a return and who will keep selling - or you may even see the IBD-positive snake you returned up for sale again.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The number of asymptomatic carriers uncovered by this test will shock the crap out of a lot of people. In time, as the test becomes more popular, you will need to screen your collection in order to move a snake to anyone who knows what IBD is.

If I were a boa breeder I would get ahead of the curve and clear my animals now and not do business without anyone who can produce the paperwork showing their stock is clean.

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This is what I was getting at - a reputable seller will test, in fact, will have to test - because if buyers routinely have new arrivals tested as part of the QT process, then selling just one carrier of IBD will put a rather permanent crimp in your sales.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Not to jack but I hate to disagree with you here. There are too many people trying to make a quick buck and think claiming "HET" to get a higher price. I am not saying they are all crooked but lets be honest. Any written document can be faked.
Not to just jab the little guys but I had a collection I was keeping for an unnamed member here and I sexed all of the snakes and labeled them when I took in the collection. There was a Fire in question because this female that came from BHB had two nice big hemis :O Mistakes can be made but paperwork is not trustable.

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I do not think we necessarily disagree, my bigger point is that you do not have to be Ralph Davis to be trusted selling a het. Also, we always hear about the cases of someone getting screwed, not the THOUSANDS of cases where everything went well. So I really do think the scammers are few amongst the whole.

I would love to see this testing become widely available if it proves out.
And, yes I would pay more for guaranteed IBD free snakes backed up by documentation from a licensed vet. The test would also have to be very recent (just prior to shipping, ideally as we never know what animals are coming and going from any facility).
Let's face it IBD is an issue even for reputable breeders. We may never clean up the shady characters but, for serious snake enthusiasts and reputable breeders this has the potential to help clean up our collections. Possibly even eliminating IBD as any sort of serious concern for anyone dealing with reputable people. There is nothing to say that some of us do not have snakes that have been properly quarantined and have an asymptomatic carrier still, I have not read enough on the subject to say whether or not there might be a gene that prevents actually acquiring the disease even if infected or, if stress (such as less than ideal conditions which is something I think every one of us tries to avoid) can make an animal more susceptible.

I found it interesting that there seems to be a direct rodent link in that the virus seems to be from a group known to affect rodents. That said I'd be willing to pay more for feeders from a company that regularly tests there colonies for this virus if it is ever proven as a vector.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Not to jack but I hate to disagree with you here. There are too many people trying to make a quick buck and think claiming "HET" to get a higher price. I am not saying they are all crooked but lets be honest. Any written document can be faked.

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While this is true, forged test results or vet invoices can be discovered within weeks or even days, depending on how long the test takes, should a buyer receive a snake with IBD. The buyer can also open a dispute with PayPal or their CC company - "Item not as described".

OTOH a fake het may take months or even years to prove out, especially if it was purchased as a hatchling, leaving the buyer with little or no recourse for a refund by the time the deception is discovered.

How are you going to prove the animal sold is the one tested??

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

How are you going to prove the animal sold is the one tested??

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Obviously you can't. My point though is that if you are sold an animal that's advertised as "clean", and it's not, you have recourse if you get the test done ASAP once the snake arrives. Buyers got taken on false hets because of the length of time from the sale to the discovery of the fraud.

But given the possible asymptomatic behavior of the disease, you may not ever know if it was or was not infected in the first place

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Originally Posted by treeboa

Man is this true! Papers on hets are worthless unless they're from Ralph Davis or something. Would think people would just start making their own "lab results".

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This irks me more than it should.
Even Ralph Davis and other big names can fake papers or make mistakes.

You really shouldn't buy hets period unless it's a gamble you want to take. Everyone can be sinister in intent or mistaken is good intentions.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

This irks me more than it should.
Even Ralph Davis and other big names can fake papers or make mistakes.

You really shouldn't buy hets period unless it's a gamble you want to take. Everyone can be sinister in intent or mistaken is good intentions.

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I agree, while I've gotten hets from Ralph and the animals were great and everything I ever hoped they would be, I've also received a LOT of hets from people who weren't Ralph and have never been scammed yet. It's unfortunate that there always seems to be so much emphasis on 'outing the scammers' that sometimes it sounds like half the people in the herp hobby are scamming the other half when in reality it's really a very small number of people who are dishonest.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I agree, while I've gotten hets from Ralph and the animals were great and everything I ever hoped they would be, I've also received a LOT of hets from people who weren't Ralph and have never been scammed yet. It's unfortunate that there always seems to be so much emphasis on 'outing the scammers' that sometimes it sounds like half the people in the herp hobby are scamming the other half when in reality it's really a very small number of people who are dishonest.

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It only takes the one incident that I've ever heard of legitimate case of faked papers (and it turned out that the guy faked like 10+ pairs of het pieds when het pieds were really expensive) to ruin the het market the way it has. Most people won't buy hets, as evidenced above in my previous quote, unless there is a reputable name behind it.

I made the first jump into hets with a pair of het VPI axanthics, and let me tell you it still scares me to have paid $50 a piece for what could potentially be $15 normals. But, at the same time, I don't have money to jump into an axanthic so why not make my own. Gambling is an addiction for a reason.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

It's unfortunate that there always seems to be so much emphasis on 'outing the scammers' that sometimes it sounds like half the people in the herp hobby are scamming the other half when in reality it's really a very small number of people who are dishonest.

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Well being a relative n00b to the herp world I'm quite happy there are places where I can research sellers. I've also left positive feedback for every breeder/seller from whom I've made a purchase - including a few folks here.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

I think I would be more likely to just have the animal tested after purchase (while in QT). I don't see any way to verify that the test actually goes with the snake you are purchasing, so I'd rather just have it tested myself.

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I would pay more from a breeder who microchipped their snakes, and with the chip number for the snake tested being included in the paperwork.

What I don't see is breeders going that far to reassure buyers.

That said, if I wanted a boa tomorrow, I would ask the breeder if they would be willing to take the chip, get it microchipped and tested for me, at my expense (non-refundable regardless of outcome of the test and including some extra cash for their time). *That* might be something I could convince them to do.

It would be a heck of an expensive proposition, but it's also about the only way I'd bring a boa in.