Colubrids vs Boids - Intelligence

Let me just start off by saying I understand it's hard to define what intelligence is, and that each category has their own "most intelligent" snake(retics, indigos, king cobra...etc) but in general, under which category do you seem to find the "smartest" snakes?

I can't offer any input of my own, but I'm going to keep an eye on this thread. This sounds like an interesting subject.

I can only really speak for myself when I say, out of my two snakes - one corn and one ball - my corn has done much more seemingly intelligent things than my ball in the relatively short time I've had the both; about 5 months. These things include the corn putting just her stomach on her UTH following a feeding, pushing substrate in a hide with 2 openings to the one closest to the lightsource (blocking out light coming in), etc. So far I've only seen my ball python manipulate his hides, and push them around (although I don't know how intelligent this is)

:P

Interesting post!

Like you said intelligence in snakes is hard to measure. Retics are by far the most "intelligent" boid I have ever worked with. They just seem to have a sense of things that others don't. They even seem to recognize there primary keeper and react differently to them then they do others. Most colubrids and elapids are more inquisitive then boids. I'm not sure if this is a sign of intelligence exactly or just a product of a different style of hunting then ambush hunters. I have noticed over the years though that most hots do seem to have a higher sense of self and tend to "learn" and attempt to exploit their keepers habits faster then your average boid or colubrid. There are of course exceptions to that on both sides of course though.

I know this isn't a snake but I kept a common snapping turtle years ago from the egg. I handled this turtle way more often than I have any other. When he reached about 4 inches he started to push his face into my hand when I'd pick him up. The first time he did this I didn't see it, only felt it. I thought it was his foot. When I looked down I was sure he was going to bite me. Instead he simply relaxed and went limp. He did this almost everytime I picked him up. If someone else picked him up he'd push his face into their hand and then struggle to be set free.

I highly doubt he recognized me although I'd like to really think he did. I really believe he learned he was safe based on how I handled him versus how others reacted to his "face bumps". I don't think this was a sign of intelligence but rather conditioning.

I'm also very interested in this thread. From experience, I haven't really had all that much time to sense any form of intelligence from my snake. As much as I'd love to have a smart snake, he seems to have the intelligence of a toddler. Exploring things, getting stuck in small spaces and such, but never doing anything inherently "smart" as far as I can tell. Sure he moves his hide around a bit on the hot side, as well as using his body to block out any light entering his hide. But nothing I'd consider intelligent.

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

Like you said intelligence in snakes is hard to measure. Retics are by far the most "intelligent" boid I have ever worked with. They just seem to have a sense of things that others don't. They even seem to recognize there primary keeper and react differently to them then they do others. Most colubrids and elapids are more inquisitive then boids. I'm not sure if this is a sign of intelligence exactly or just a product of a different style of hunting then ambush hunters. I have noticed over the years though that most hots do seem to have a higher sense of self and tend to "learn" and attempt to exploit their keepers habits faster then your average boid or colubrid. There are of course exceptions to that on both sides of course though.

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Retics are boids?

Agreed on the interesting thread part though! Great question......

I personally think boas are "more intelligent" then all the colubrids and pythons I've worked with. I feel like boas tame quicker and learn a persons presence quicker. Boas tend to be not as shy and warm up quicker to people and I feel like they learn/tolerate different enviorments and situations better while my ball pythons and colubrids tend to freak out. This just goes for my collection and others I've seen but I feel like boas are more pet-like in my eyes due to their individual personalities.

I've never held or interacted with retics, burms, rock pythons, andacondas, and the bigger constrictors so I have no idea about their traits.

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Originally Posted by DSpythons

I personally think boas are "more intelligent" then all the colubrids and pythons I've worked with. I feel like boas tame quicker and learn a persons presence quicker. Boas tend to be not as shy and warm up quicker to people and I feel like they learn/tolerate different enviorments and situations better while my ball pythons and colubrids tend to freak out. This just goes for my collection and others I've seen but I feel like boas are more pet-like in my eyes due to their individual personalities.

I've never held or interacted with retics, burms, rock pythons, andacondas, and the bigger constrictors so I have no idea about their traits.

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Have you ever interacted with a carpet python?

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Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Have you ever interacted with a carpet python?

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I haven't. Im just comparing ball pythons, kings, milks, corns, dumerils, and red tails since I've owned them all. All the boas just seem more intelligent in my eyes just because of their personalities.

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I'd say hands down colubrids.

I've had Anacondas, Balls, Corns, Kings, Rats, BCI's. I've also had to house a retic for 6 months.

I can say hands down out of all the snakes I wouldn't necessarily say smarter, but the Anaconda and Retics were the most non-frightful which some would say is more intelligent because they interact more and settle down when comfortable. Balls generally jerk their head back when you go in their tank/tub, though I'm sure they have exceptions to this rule.

Of all the snakes I've dealt with I'd probably put my Rufous Beaked higher than any of them for the simple reason that if my hand goes in the tank they normally retreat their head but still watch. If I go near them and just gently tap the substrate then 2 of the 3 will come to my hand.

My littlest one will come up my hand when I'm misting the tank or if my hand just approaches the tank normally. I can't say this for any of my balls, though my Sable does like to come out when I open the tub if my hand goes nearby he jerks back. Of all snakes intelligence wise and me having little to no experience with them I would probably say Cobras or Black Mambas would be the highest on that list.

In my limited experience with species other than ball pythons, colubrids are extremely intelligent. I believe that they are more so than most Boas and Pythons. And I do believe certain hots, specifically Cobras, are the most intelligent in terms of snakes.

Skip needs to chime in here since he's the colubrid expert.

But anyway ball pythons are not very intelligent. Mine aren't any ways.

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

I know this isn't a snake but I kept a common snapping turtle years ago from the egg. I handled this turtle way more often than I have any other. When he reached about 4 inches he started to push his face into my hand when I'd pick him up. The first time he did this I didn't see it, only felt it. I thought it was his foot. When I looked down I was sure he was going to bite me. Instead he simply relaxed and went limp. He did this almost everytime I picked him up. If someone else picked him up he'd push his face into their hand and then struggle to be set free.

I highly doubt he recognized me although I'd like to really think he did. I really believe he learned he was safe based on how I handled him versus how others reacted to his "face bumps". I don't think this was a sign of intelligence but rather conditioning.

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As somebody who keeps some turtles and a few snakes, you can't really compare turtles with snakes at ALL.

Bottom line is that even a really dumb turtle is significantly more intelligent than a smart snake, they simply have to do and interact with more in their day to day. Often turtles have social patterns/hierarchy and definitely come to know individuals (other turtles, their owners, etc.) A lot of the response I get from my turtles (c. reimanni and g. spengleri) seems pavlovian, but they really do learn things about their environment and interaction with it. My smallest spengleri are like the size of silver dollars, and they manage to figure out a surprising amount of stuff in a head the size of half a peanut. Some wood turtles have tested as high as dogs on intelligence tests, and of course turtles and tortoises can live a very long time.

My ball pythons, so far as I can tell so far, are idiots. Lovable all the same, but not smart. In fact, my main moral dilemma as a BP keeper is the fact that we have to feed animals that are so smart (rats) to ones that are basically as dumb as logs.

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Originally Posted by dkspftw

My ball pythons, so far as I can tell so far, are idiots. Lovable all the same, but not smart. In fact, my main moral dilemma as a BP keeper is the fact that we have to feed animals that are so smart (rats) to ones that are basically as dumb as logs.

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Thank you good sir. I now have a signature quote.

Now in all honesty I think we link inquisitive with smartness. While I do believe and I'm sure studies somewhere along the line have showed that some snakes are smarter than others, most of us are all going to be biased, like I am towards my Rufous Beaked.

I did this just out of a test. If you're going to watch, then please watch the videos in the order that they're posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfnTqJkqE8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5vURYRncDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGOTD-LltFI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skwQygQ15LQ

As much as I love my ball pythons, I don't think they are very smart. Some seem more inquisitive and tame down faster than others, but I haven't observed any behavior I would call "intelligence" of any level. My rosy boas seem to have s little more going on upstairs, but my experience with other snakes is too limited to make a comparison.

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Originally Posted by dkspftw

As somebody who keeps some turtles and a few snakes, you can't really compare turtles with snakes at ALL.

My ball pythons, so far as I can tell so far, are idiots. Lovable all the same, but not smart. In fact, my main moral dilemma as a BP keeper is the fact that we have to feed animals that are so smart (rats) to ones that are basically as dumb as logs.

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HILARIOUS!!!!LOL!!!!!! :rofl:

Interesting that we equate "smart" behavior in the context of the snake being kept in a domesticated or non-natural environment. But, what about in cases where the animal is in the wild? Which reaction to potential predators is "smarter" and more likely to ensure survival in nature - a fearful/protective response, or an inquisitive one?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Interesting that we equate "smart" behavior in the context of the snake being kept in a domesticated or non-natural environment. But, what about in cases where the animal is in the wild? Which reaction to potential predators is "smarter" and more likely to ensure survival in nature - a fearful/protective response, or an inquisitive one?

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I said we link that together, I didn't say that was the actual case :P

If you find Rufous Beaked snakes in the wild, they're not going to bite. In fact I know of many cases of wild caught ones being very calm. They're spastic in the sense they stand the front of their body up and jerk from left to right and watch movement. All 3 of my beaked are wild caught.

Eastern Indigos are another species that is very calm naturally.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Interesting that we equate "smart" behavior in the context of the snake being kept in a domesticated or non-natural environment. But, what about in cases where the animal is in the wild? Which reaction to potential predators is "smarter" and more likely to ensure survival in nature - a fearful/protective response, or an inquisitive one?

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Depends on what the behavior leads to. Inquisitive may be smart, if it leads to the animal recognizing friend from foe. A fearful response may be smart if it leads to evasive behavior that keeps the animal away from predators. It might not be smart if it leads to behaviors which results in the animal being eaten. Protective response can go either way too, depending on whether that protective response leads to evasive action, or if it means fighting back against any perceived threat and results in the animal being eaten.

Then again, a lot of that is just instinct too, and can't really be attributed to actual intelligence or lack of. Intelligence indicates an ability to learn, which inquisitive behavior allows where simple reaction does not. There also is a big difference in reaction between those species more likely to be prey, and those more likely to be predator, and these reactions can change with life stage. It's like a fearful deer (prey) vs the inquisitive coyote (predator in some situations). Also our captive bred animals are a little different from wild animals. They are, to some degree, being selected for certain behaviors that may not otherwise occur in the wild, intentionally and unintentionally.

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Originally Posted by thinkbig317

Retics are boids?

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Historically Pythonidae was classified as a subfamily (Pythoninae) of Family Boidae, so kind of, close enough for the gist of this discussion anyway.

I do feel like my hognose is definitely more observant than my BPs (who all appear to have ADD), but I don't know if that really makes her more intelligent or just more focused.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Historically Pythonidae was classified as a subfamily (Pythoninae) of Family Boidae, so kind of, close enough for the gist of this discussion anyway.

I do feel like my hognose is definitely more observant than my BPs (who all appear to have ADD), but I don't know if that really makes her more intelligent or just more focused.

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They play dead by rolling over and sticking their tongue out of their mouth. They can release a pretty bad odor too. Then another thing they do is strike with their mouth closed.

Now the bad part is if one is playing dead and you flip him right up, he'll automatically flip back over. Which a dead snake wouldn't do :P

I say out of all my bps ,my carpet ,my bci, and my hognose my carpets seems to be the most intelligent then my bci then my hognose ,all my balls as much as i love them seem to be dumb as rocks but i still love them. My carpet was very cage aggressive the first week i got him he lunged at anything that got close to him and after 5 days of handling he tamed out alot. Now he wont strike he just acts tuff

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Originally Posted by Neal

They play dead by rolling over and sticking their tongue out of their mouth. They can release a pretty bad odor too. Then another thing they do is strike with their mouth closed.

Now the bad part is if one is playing dead and you flip him right up, he'll automatically flip back over. Which a dead snake wouldn't do :P

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The funny thing I've noticed with my hoggie, I can see her little red eyes watching me move and tracking things. You can watch her watching you, so when my other hand moves she tracks it, unlike the BPs who are completely oblivious until you touch them and then they "jump" with surprise, forget you're there after 10 seconds, and get startled again. I have seen the hogs doing the "no really I'm dead" roll over on youtube, but mine doesn't do it. I think she's just lazy or defective (or hopefully I just don't scare her). :rolleyes:

Since my only recent experience (I had a burm, hoggies, and a corn as kid, which was an undisclosed length of time ago ;), so I don't really remember how "smart" they were) is hoggies and BPs, I vote hoggies as mildly smarter, but it's not like the bar is set very high.

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

I know this isn't a snake but I kept a common snapping turtle years ago from the egg. I handled this turtle way more often than I have any other. When he reached about 4 inches he started to push his face into my hand when I'd pick him up. The first time he did this I didn't see it, only felt it. I thought it was his foot. When I looked down I was sure he was going to bite me. Instead he simply relaxed and went limp. He did this almost everytime I picked him up. If someone else picked him up he'd push his face into their hand and then struggle to be set free.

I highly doubt he recognized me although I'd like to really think he did. I really believe he learned he was safe based on how I handled him versus how others reacted to his "face bumps". I don't think this was a sign of intelligence but rather conditioning.

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It's worth noting that he was, well, a turtle. Turtles are actually closely related to the archosaur taxonomic complex- they have more in common, genetically, to birds and crocodilians than to squamates. All these animals tend to show more awareness, social behavior and/or intelligence than the other reptiles. From what I know, almost every chelonian has a higher learning capacity and will at least learn to recognize people.

Edit: I've witnessed, on multiple occasions, that every time I add something new to my older ball's tank, she would, at some point, approach the object and "scan" (literally from top to bottom) the new object before going back to her hide. Also, once she gets going and is awake, she will try to exit her tank when it's open by approaching me from whatever direction I'm hovering over or on one specific side if I'm not standing next to the tank. I thought that was quite interesting. The other snake, though, is a panicky dunce.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Historically Pythonidae was classified as a subfamily (Pythoninae) of Family Boidae, so kind of, close enough for the gist of this discussion anyway.

I do feel like my hognose is definitely more observant than my BPs (who all appear to have ADD), but I don't know if that really makes her more intelligent or just more focused.

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Ya old habits die hard I guess. I still call gtp's chondros to, probably always will.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Balls generally jerk their head back when you go in their tank/tub, though I'm sure they have exceptions to this rule.

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The ball python I was referring to in my previous post can be considered one of the exceptions. She's not head shy and I think this more confident personality allows for a greater opportunity to observe this interactive behavior. That's probably why people will say the large, formidable constrictors such as retics and anacondas are more 'intelligent' because they aren't as shy. (I think, though, instead of referring to intelligence, it should be referred to as being more interactive and personalized, although snakes were proven in an experience to recognize locations and develop "mental mapping." I wouldn't be surprised if they could learn to recognize other things as well, and be aware of differences or changes.)

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Originally Posted by Neal

Of all snakes intelligence wise and me having little to no experience with them I would probably say Cobras or Black Mambas would be the highest on that list.

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King cobras, hands down. These things will actually build a nest for their eggs.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

It's worth noting that he was, well, a turtle. Turtles are actually closely related to the archosaur taxonomic complex- they have more in common, genetically, to birds and crocodilians than to squamates. All these animals tend to show more awareness, social behavior and/or intelligence than the other reptiles. From what I know, almost every chelonian has a higher learning capacity and will at least learn to recognize people.

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Very interesting! Thank you! So are you saying that a turtle actually CAN recognize people or that they appear to be able to?

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

Very interesting! Thank you! So are you saying that a turtle actually CAN recognize people or that they appear to be able to?

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Eh. Snakes are all pretty stupid. As Neal stated, many colubrids are very inquisitive and visual....which makes them seem more intelligent. Again, being a colubrid doesn't qualify for special status - colubridae is nothing but a taxonomic dumping ground for snakes that haven't been properly classified.

If we are discussing qualities that mimic perceived intelligence; well then there are several species that combine inquisitiveness, general activity and an alert demeanor which make them seem like the mensas of the snake world when compared to lumps like ball pythons and boas.

Psammophilines (psammophis, psammophylax, rhamphiophis) are all very curious and active snakes - as well as visually stimulated. Same goes for the dispholidines (thrasops, rhamnophis, dispholidus, thelatornis).

Drymarchon are often claimed to be intelligent, but I have a few that are pretty dumb and ball-pythony. I also have a few that have acclimated well, are fairly interactive and seem interested in what's going it.

Hydrodynastes are also a species I would put in that class. Clelia are endearingly goofy, and most philodryas species are indiscriminate biting machines.

If you are interested in an intelligent reptile buy a tortoise of a heloderma. Our russian tortoise is like a dog and our heloderma each have individual personalities and are extremely interactive.

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Originally Posted by thinkbig317

Retics are boids?

Agreed on the interesting thread part though! Great question......

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all constrictors fall under the boid classification HOWEVER there is a sub classification of pythonidae and boidae and it is in this sub classification that we typically divide the species up most familiar to us in the pet trade and forums.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Eh. Snakes are all pretty stupid. As Neal stated, many colubrids are very inquisitive and visual....which makes them seem more intelligent. Again, being a colubrid doesn't qualify for special status - colubridae is nothing but a taxonomic dumping ground for snakes that haven't been properly classified.

If we are discussing qualities that mimic perceived intelligence; well then there are several species that combine inquisitiveness, general activity and an alert demeanor which make them seem like the mensas of the snake world when compared to lumps like ball pythons and boas.

Psammophilines (psammophis, psammophylax, rhamphiophis) are all very curious and active snakes - as well as visually stimulated. Same goes for the dispholidines (thrasops, rhamnophis, dispholidus, thelatornis).

Drymarchon are often claimed to be intelligent, but I have a few that are pretty dumb and ball-pythony. I also have a few that have acclimated well, are fairly interactive and seem interested in what's going it.

Hydrodynastes are also a species I would put in that class. Clelia are endearingly goofy, and most philodryas species are indiscriminate biting machines.

If you are interested in an intelligent reptile buy a tortoise of a heloderma. Our russian tortoise is like a dog and our heloderma each have individual personalities and are extremely interactive.

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While this information you provided was very insightful, the person you quoted was initially talking about a turtle, just in case there's any confusion. (We were going off-topic.)

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

Very interesting! Thank you! So are you saying that a turtle actually CAN recognize people or that they appear to be able to?

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That's, by far, what I've heard. (Link and link. I don't work with turtles so I can't provide that much insight beyond hearsay and educated guesses, but it's definitely something you should look into if you're interested.)

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Originally Posted by Neal

Now in all honesty I think we link inquisitive with smartness. While I do believe and I'm sure studies somewhere along the line have showed that some snakes are smarter than others, most of us are all going to be biased, like I am towards my Rufous Beaked.

I did this just out of a test. If you're going to watch, then please watch the videos in the order that they're posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfnTqJkqE8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5vURYRncDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGOTD-LltFI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skwQygQ15LQ

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thanks for these videos, pretty interesting to watch your rufous beaks

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Originally Posted by mikoh4792

thanks for these videos, pretty interesting to watch your rufous beaks

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Anytim. They're awesome, and honestly they're my favorite snake.

[QUOTE=Skiploder;2207375

"Drymarchon are often claimed to be intelligent"

If you are interested in an intelligent reptile buy a tortoise of a heloderma. Our russian tortoise is like a dog and our heloderma each have individual personalities and are extremely interactive.[/QUOTE]

Agreed lol
I only have a pair of drym's and although alert and active they both seem kinda like idiot drunks a lot of the time.
Our redfoot torts on the other hand have distinct personalities and definatly seem to have an intelligence to them. They for instance beg for food all the time. :)

Edit.
I think that of all reptiles crocodilians would probably have to qualify as the most intelligent.

I don't understand why people say cobras are more intelligent.

I have 3 friends with King Cobras, and they've all said, there is nothing that they do that is different to any other defensive snakes they keep.

I think just because a cobra hoods, people attribute that to a higher intelligence.

I have snakes that watch me far more intensely than my cobras, for example my Bothrops asper's.

I've been keeping cobras for a few years now, and there is nothing I've noted that would make me think they're more intelligent than any other snake.

Not to mention it took my monocled cobra about 30 minutes, to work out she can't eat food sideways...

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I don't understand why people say cobras are more intelligent.

I have 3 friends with King Cobras, and they've all said, there is nothing that they do that is different to any other defensive snakes they keep.

I think just because a cobra hoods, people attribute that to a higher intelligence.

I have snakes that watch me far more intensely than my cobras, for example my Bothrops asper's.

I've been keeping cobras for a few years now, and there is nothing I've noted that would make me think they're more intelligent than any other snake.

Not to mention it took my monocled cobra about 30 minutes, to work out she can't eat food sideways...

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Someone, somewhere on the internet said it.

And then it spread like wildfire - through people who have never kept cobras.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If you are interested in an intelligent reptile buy a tortoise of a heloderma. Our russian tortoise is like a dog and our heloderma each have individual personalities and are extremely interactive.

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I would LOVE to get a heloderma, I've lived in the right region most of my life but never seen one in the wild (and doubt I ever will), but hubby says real hots in the house are a no go. :(

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Not to mention it took my monocled cobra about 30 minutes, to work out she can't eat food sideways...

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It took one of my BPs 5 months to work that out, and the hoggie still hasn't... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

It took one of my BPs 5 months to work that out, and the hoggie still hasn't... :rolleyes:

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Haha! Oh no, my monocled still does it, but I meant on one particular occasion she took 30 minutes to figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Someone, somewhere on the internet said it.

And then it spread like wildfire - through people who have never kept cobras.

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Indeed. Although, many keepers also seem to say it. But they're usually the ones whose favourite snake, is a cobra.

A quote from one of my friends who keeps 5 Kings is this: "Let’s compare the behaviour of my King to my Malayan pit Viper.

Both are wild-caught snakes. When I open their vivs, both will quickly become defensive and often rush out the vivarium at me.

The Malayan Pit Viper would feed on amphibs in the wild; the King would feed on snakes. Both have been 'tricked' into eating rodents.

Neither will take off the tongs, and prefer to have the food left in over night. They both hide away when in their vivariums, and both are highly aggressive when out of the vivariums.

I cant really think of any particular behaviour that really stands out with kings that shows a sign of intelligence."

Lacking hands, brushes and paints my pits are able to create amazing poo portraits. If this isn't a sign of higher intelligence..

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I don't understand why people say cobras are more intelligent.

I have 3 friends with King Cobras, and they've all said, there is nothing that they do that is different to any other defensive snakes they keep.

I think just because a cobra hoods, people attribute that to a higher intelligence.

I have snakes that watch me far more intensely than my cobras, for example my Bothrops asper's.

I've been keeping cobras for a few years now, and there is nothing I've noted that would make me think they're more intelligent than any other snake.

Not to mention it took my monocled cobra about 30 minutes, to work out she can't eat food sideways...

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I said if I would have to assume if you're referring to what I said. Also a monocoled cobra isn't the same as a king cobra. King Cobra's aren't Naja's but are Ophiophagus'. I've personally never dealt with them, but I know a guy who has one and I do spend some time admiring it every once in awhile and just it being more alert than other snakes which is why I said what I did. It's nothing to do with it being able to hood, which all it's doing in reality is flattening out that part of the body. In fact hooding I wouldn't even call a sign of intelligence, that's more or less it trying to appear bigger as to intimidate whatever they've encountered. A hooded cobra can only strike down as well, so if you were to go above it's head you could pat it on the head. I know this because I've done it before.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I said if I would have to assume if you're referring to what I said. Also a monocoled cobra isn't the same as a king cobra. King Cobra's aren't Naja's but are Ophiophagus'. I've personally never dealt with them, but I know a guy who has one and I do spend some time admiring it every once in awhile and just it being more alert than other snakes which is why I said what I did. It's nothing to do with it being able to hood, which all it's doing in reality is flattening out that part of the body. In fact hooding I wouldn't even call a sign of intelligence, that's more or less it trying to appear bigger as to intimidate whatever they've encountered. A hooded cobra can only strike down as well, so if you were to go above it's head you could pat it on the head. I know this because I've done it before.

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It was inspired by what you said, but I was talking in general terms, as everyone seems to assume Cobras are more intelligent.

I'm well aware of the fact Kings aren't true cobras, thanks for the taxonomic lesson.

I think you misunderstood my point about hooding, completely. The fact they hood up, is one reason why people think they're more intelligent. As if they're looking deep into your eyes, trying to find some deeper meaning with regards to the situation they're faced with...

I hear it time and time again, for example "The way they look at you, you just know there is something going on behind those eyes".

Also you talk absolute rubbish. A hooded cobra can strike upwards, if you had any real experience you'd know this. I have on countless occasions witnessed my Cobras, jump upwards and strike from a hooded position.

You can see it here in a friends video: http://youtu.be/ZCjFEmc-HpU

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

It was inspired by what you said, but I was talking in general terms, as everyone seems to assume Cobras are more intelligent.

I'm well aware of the fact Kings aren't true cobras, thanks for the taxonomic lesson.

I think you misunderstood my point about hooding, completely. The fact they hood up, is one reason why people think they're more intelligent. As if they're looking deep into your eyes, trying to find some deeper meaning with regards to the situation they're faced with...

I hear it time and time again, for example "The way they look at you, you just know there is something going on behind those eyes".

Also you talk absolute rubbish. A hooded cobra can strike upwards, if you had any real experience you'd know this. I have on countless occasions witnessed my Cobras, jump upwards and strike from a hooded position.

You can see it here in a friends video: http://youtu.be/ZCjFEmc-HpU

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Clearly you misunderstand what I said. I said they can only strike downwards, I never said anything about not being able to jump upwards. Any snake can lunge which is what that snake did. I also never said there's anything more behind those eyes. I said they're more alert. They will spend quite a more significant time watching you than other snakes, or at least this has been my experience. This is the case with my Rufous beaked and my ball pythons. My rufous beaked will sit with it's head on the ledge of the glass and watch me. If I move it'll reposition itself so it can see me. It doesn't do this all the time but it does it frequently enough.

But back to the hooded comment. I don't keep cobras but like I said I've pat one on the head once before, so if you had any real experience you'd understand how often they actually lunge. They didn't lunge on the first attempt in that video, only after irritating it did it lunge. That's the difference. It won't just jump randomly on the first time. I'd probably guess that a lot of the time those first bites are dry just to scare something off.

The reason I said about mambas is because if I'm not mistaken they're the only snake that doesn't do dry bites. When they bite they inject venom, every time.

EDIT:
Also if you pay attention to the body in that slow motion replay you can see he unhoods while striking. Maybe not all the way but clearly he does. Don't pay so much attention to the strike as to his body. This is not to mention that it's chasing food and not defending itself.

EDIT #2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoUqI4BO8tE

Another instance of one lunging, or technically it sped up the log but yea all the same.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Clearly you misunderstand what I said. I said they can only strike downwards, I never said anything about not being able to jump upwards. Any snake can lunge which is what that snake did. I also never said there's anything more behind those eyes. I said they're more alert. They will spend quite a more significant time watching you than other snakes, or at least this has been my experience. This is the case with my Rufous beaked and my ball pythons. My rufous beaked will sit with it's head on the ledge of the glass and watch me. If I move it'll reposition itself so it can see me. It doesn't do this all the time but it does it frequently enough.

But back to the hooded comment. I don't keep cobras but like I said I've pat one on the head once before, so if you had any real experience you'd understand how often they actually lunge. They didn't lunge on the first attempt in that video, only after irritating it did it lunge. That's the difference. It won't just jump randomly on the first time. I'd probably guess that a lot of the time those first bites are dry just to scare something off.

The reason I said about mambas is because if I'm not mistaken they're the only snake that doesn't do dry bites. When they bite they inject venom, every time.

EDIT:
Also if you pay attention to the body in that slow motion replay you can see he unhoods while striking. Maybe not all the way but clearly he does. Don't pay so much attention to the strike as to his body.

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Whether it's jumping upwards or not, it struck upwards - simple. They're capable of striking in an upwards direction if they want to.

How often they lunge? That depends entirely on the cobra. You cannot tarnish them all with the same brush. There are plenty of cobras that will lunge straight off, forget about on an individual basis, it changes day by day!

I like how you nonchalantly say you "pat a cobra on the head"..sounds like a troll. Have any proof? Not that it's something to be proud of.

All venomous snakes have the ability to deliver a dry bite. Whether or not they do 0%, 50%, or 100% of the time, cannot be tested in a reliable manner.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Whether it's jumping upwards or not, it struck upwards - simple. They're capable of striking in an upwards direction if they want to.

How often they lunge? That depends entirely on the cobra. You cannot tarnish them all with the same brush. There are plenty of cobras that will lunge straight off, forget about on an individual basis, it changes day by day!

I like how you nonchalantly say you "pat a cobra on the head"..sounds like a troll. Have any proof? Not that it's something to be proud of.

All venomous snakes have the ability to deliver a dry bite. Whether or not they do 0%, 50%, or 100% of the time, cannot be tested in a reliable manner.

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I never said they couldn't strike upwards. I said hooded striking in an upwards direction, no. I still say that.

Do I have any proof that I pat a cobra on the head? No. Could I? Yes, but it's not something I would do again. I did it under some circumstances when I was younger and unemployed with nothing better to do. I would never do something like that again. I would never own a cobra because I know that I would try to hold it sooner or later and get bit. For this reason I don't deal with anything venomous, aside from my Rufous which have never attempted to bite me with the exception of me doing a study when I was hand feeding my smaller one which is also the calmest of the three.

I know all venomous snakes have the ability to deliver a dry bite, that's common sense. I was simply stating that a lot of snakes will deliver a dry bite the first time in attempt to scare the animal off and save their venom, or avoid potential injury. I would never assume that the bite would be dry either. I was stating a fact on why I said either that them or the Black Mambas are probably the smartest snake. Though nobody can prove anything about any species being the smartest, I'm simply going off my assumption. Could I be wrong? Probably. I'm just going off of what I've dealt with and seen and witnessed. Also I've never seen a black mamba first hand in this case but I've done quite a bit of research on them.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I never said they couldn't strike upwards. I said hooded striking in an upwards direction, no. I still say that.

Do I have any proof that I pat a cobra on the head? No. Could I? Yes, but it's not something I would do again. I did it under some circumstances when I was younger and unemployed with nothing better to do. I would never do something like that again. I would never own a cobra because I know that I would try to hold it sooner or later and get bit. For this reason I don't deal with anything venomous, aside from my Rufous which have never attempted to bite me with the exception of me doing a study when I was hand feeding my smaller one which is also the calmest of the three.

I know all venomous snakes have the ability to deliver a dry bite, that's common sense. I was simply stating that a lot of snakes will deliver a dry bite the first time in attempt to scare the animal off and save their venom, or avoid potential injury. I would never assume that the bite would be dry either. I was stating a fact on why I said either that them or the Black Mambas are probably the smartest snake. Though nobody can prove anything about any species being the smartest, I'm simply going off my assumption. Could I be wrong? Probably. I'm just going off of what I've dealt with and seen and witnessed. Also I've never seen a black mamba first hand in this case but I've done quite a bit of research on them.

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Like I have said before, they can strike upwards from a hooded position. Whether they unhood during their strike doesn't matter, they struck upwards from a hooded position.

You're just another google expert. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

Active hunters, especially sight hunters, are going to seem more intelligent. Ever try stalking a coachwhip in a field of uncut grass? They will occasionally periscope to pinpoint your location while every time increasing the gap. You basically have to bolt to catch them if you spot one on the prowl. Wouldn't call it intelligence so much as using the inherent tools they've got given their spot on their evolutionary chain. Does it take more smarts to visually chase something down as opposed to tracking a scent? What about sitting near a body of water and waiting for prey to come to you? When snakes start using tools I'll begin production on "my snake is an honor student" bumper stickers for you folks who need them.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Like I have said before, they can strike upwards from a hooded position. Whether they unhood during their strike doesn't matter, they struck upwards from a hooded position.

You're just another google expert. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

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I'm not googling anything kiddo so if you're going to try to seem smart, back up and prove the facts first.

I said they can't strike while hooded. Did that mean they can't unhood and strike? Nope. The fact is they didn't strike and stay hooded. My point remains.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I'm not googling anything kiddo so if you're going to try to seem smart, back up and prove the facts first.

I said they can't strike while hooded. Did that mean they can't unhood and strike? Nope. The fact is they didn't strike and stay hooded. My point remains.

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I'm telling you from MY EXPERIENCE (Unlike you who doesn't own a cobra), that they can keep their hood and strike upwards. Granted it is in a jumping motion, nevertheless it is a strike.

When you've kept cobras for a few years, then please elaborate on your experiences. Until then, you're just another google expert, who "pats cobras on the head".

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm telling you from MY EXPERIENCE (Unlike you who doesn't own a cobra), that they can keep their hood and strike upwards. Granted it is in a jumping motion, nevertheless it is a strike.

When you've kept cobras for a few years, then please elaborate on your experiences. Until then, you're just another google expert, who "pats cobras on the head".

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I know you're butt hurt because of the fact you're trying to call me a Google expert. Like that commercial says if It's on the internet it has to be true, right? Wrong.

Yes I may not keep cobras but I know people that do. Show me one striking while not in the presence of food. I may be wrong, but why there is a reason they let go of the hood to lunge. Exactly what that one did.

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Originally Posted by Neal

I know you're butt hurt because of the fact you're trying to call me a Google expert. Like that commercial says if It's on the internet it has to be true, right? Wrong.

Yes I may not keep cobras but I know people that do. Show me one striking while not in the presence of food. I may be wrong, but why there is a reason they let go of the hood to lunge. Exactly what that one did.

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That part i highlighted in bold is exactly why your word on anything to do with cobras, is a joke. Cobras don't just strike when food is around...again showing your lack of knowledge.

I managed to found an old clip of my siamensis when she was smaller. At the end you can clearly see (albeit it, it's not great) she strikes upwards towards the camera whilst her hood is still 'open'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SkeAcUSc1k

I do not know why I am even entertaining your remarks, you don't even keep Cobra's therefore your opinion is totally invalid with regards to their striking capabilities.