Lesser X Mojave???

So, I realized Lessers and Mojo's make BEL's when bred to each other. Do you also get super's (BEL) when you breed a Lesser to a Mojave???

Yes, but they often vary depending on what the breeding is. with the Mojave to Mojave breeding there is typically an all white snake but with some greys or purples on the head. But when bred to a lesser, the BEL tends to be almost completely white with, in my experience, no pattern on the head.
Again, thats just to my knowledge. But yes when bred together they produce a white snake.:D

yes

I just discovered there is a minimum character length for posts.

Lesser x Lesser
Lesser x Mojave
Mojave x Mojave
Butter x Butter
Butter x Lesser
Butter x Mojave

All these combinations will give you the white snakes (not sure if I've missed any out)

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Originally Posted by Naom9Anne

Lesser x Lesser
Lesser x Mojave
Mojave x Mojave
Butter x Butter
Butter x Lesser
Butter x Mojave

All these combinations will give you the white snakes (not sure if I've missed any out)

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You forgot Russos

Fire x Fire will also give white snakes.. but with an orange hue/patches.

lesser = butter, that simplifies things.

in the BEL gene complex, there are stronger and weaker genes, you can sort them by how much they do on their own or in combos.

Bamboo is the strongest, followed by lesser/butter. mojave is a bit less powerful than lesser/butter. then you have mystic/phantom/special/mocha. these, as super forms or combined with mojave, make BELs that are not white, but still very beautiful. crystal, mystic potion, purple passion. because it is now so easy and there are so many ways to make a white ball python, these have significance precisely because you can do awesome off-white stuff with them.

some examples, and yes, i use WOBP just because its easy, not because i like it.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/leche/ check the second and third picture. do you see what i see, a white pigment acting on lavender background?
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...e-corcra-ball/ mystic mojave enchi.... wow
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-phantom/ why not
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-mystic/ again, why not?
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/crystal/ mojave + special, awesome colors. i like these.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-special/ the super special is also pretty neat

all of these are blue-eyed leucistics. they are not white, but all of them are legitimate BELs.

for pure white, you can use bamboo with pretty much any BEL gene (i wonder what the non-white BELs with bamboo will be, really). or super lesser/butter (they sometimes have eye issues, known genetic issue), or lesser/butter mojave (popular very white BEL without eye issues), or lesser/butter + mystic/phantom (also very white BEL without issues).

some examples of these:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/karma/ lesser phantom
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-bamboo/ super bamboo (lesser bamboo looks exactly the same)
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/mystic-lesser/ mystic lesser

i could go on, but basically when you combine two of the most powerful BEL genes, or when you combine one powerful BEL gene with a slightly less powerful one, you always get the same: an all-white BEL. bamboo is the most powerful one, followed by lesser/butter. combine any of these with each other or with mojave, mystic or phantom, and you get white BELs. go lower on the scale, and you get these fascinating BELs that still have color.

BEL means that its either a super, or a combination of two BEL genes. since they are all allelic, more than two is not possible. its one big gene complex, and a ball python can have two copies of one or one copy of two, and thats the upper limit.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/leche/ check the second and third picture. do you see what i see, a white pigment acting on lavender background?
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...e-corcra-ball/ mystic mojave enchi.... wow
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-phantom/ why not
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-mystic/ again, why not?
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/crystal/ mojave + special, awesome colors. i like these.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-special/ the super special is also pretty neat

all of these are blue-eyed leucistics. they are not white, but all of them are legitimate BELs.

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Leucistics need to have abnormal white, being partially leucistic or full on, but most of those animals are not leucistic at all. Also do all of them have blue eyes? I never really paid much attention to that.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Leucistics need to have abnormal white, being partially leucistic or full on, but most of those animals are not leucistic at all. Also do all of them have blue eyes? I never really paid much attention to that.

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hairsplitting, my favorite pass time activity. unfortunately i dont care much in this case, a BP can have a maximum of two genes from the BEL gene complex, and when it has two, or if it has one and its homozygous, i just call it a BEL. you need to draw a line somewhere, i draw it elsewhere.

EDIT: and most of these have blue eyes, at least as hatchlings, in some combos the eyes darken out as they age. but the hatchlings seem to have the blue eyes. and a reduction of all pigment (irregardless of completeness) also appears to be the definition of leucism.

according to a questionable source (wikipedia), these two both can be called leucistic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Leucistic.jpg

(for the mods: the wikimedia foundation does allow for hotlinks, they only ask users to be careful because the original file may change)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8.11.2011..jpg

(for the mods: the wikimedia foundation does allow for hotlinks, they only ask users to be careful because the original file may change)

I will pull quote from that same wiki

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The stem leuc- is the Latin variant of leuk- from the Greek leukos meaning "white"

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I'm hardly splitting hairs, your taking something yellow and calling it white. While we don't know if they are truly lucy (no pigment vs defective parts), but they at least look lucy. Many of the animals you posted don't even look it, then followed with...

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all of these are blue-eyed leucistics. they are not white, but all of them are legitimate BELs.

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which is flat out untrue. I'm not even being technical. I think you will find your line is very lonesome.

As for the pictures...

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This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.

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@ OhhWatALoser


I really respect you a lot and i love your website and the information you put together. but here we have to agree to disagree.

I call BPs that are homozygous for a gene in the BEL gene complex or that have two genes from the BEL complex BELs. Even if they are not white. And no offense, pulling a 2200 year old root out of a word is impressive, but i dont see how that matches up to a modern definition that says its a reduction in all pigment. Reduction, not elimination. And the birds are cute :D and someone considers them to be leucistic :D

Language is one of these things humans make up as they go along, and i just call a mystic potion a BEL. Maybe that changes one day, but i see no reason to change it right now. I like white BELs, but i also like non-white BELs, and i challenge you to come up with an alternative to "non-white BEL" that is different, but not longer, and that carries the same explanatory power. It still needs to imply that its two genes from the BEL complex or homozygous for a gene in the BEL complex.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

@ OhhWatALoser


I really respect you a lot and i love your website and the information you put together. but here we have to agree to disagree.

I call BPs that are homozygous for a gene in the BEL gene complex or that have two genes from the BEL complex BELs. Even if they are not white. And no offense, pulling a 2200 year old root out of a word is impressive, but i dont see how that matches up to a modern definition that says its a reduction in all pigment. Reduction, not elimination. And the birds are cute :D and someone considers them to be leucistic :D

Language is one of these things humans make up as they go along, and i just call a mystic potion a BEL. Maybe that changes one day, but i see no reason to change it right now. I like white BELs, but i also like non-white BELs, and i challenge you to come up with an alternative to "non-white BEL" that is different, but not longer, and that carries the same explanatory power. It still needs to imply that its two genes from the BEL complex or homozygous for a gene in the BEL complex.

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Yes you are right it technically doesn't have to be white, but still need a reduction in all pigments, some of them have an increase in a pigment, not even fitting that definition. Why do you need to group them in some way? Do you call every two mutant gene snake in the yellow belly complex an ivory? This is the first time I've heard them being grouped in such a way. Normally we just say these genes are part of the same complex. I'm not sure why you feel this needs to be done. If it's a super special call it a super special, no reason to be calling it a BEL, no one else does and it doesn't even make sense (not that there aren't established things that don't make sense). Reserve the BEL label for things that actually look like a BEL.

Also the lucy part of the bird is referring to the white patches aka piebald, look at a normal one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...iscula-001.jpg

also while googling I found this and I now want one:https://www.google.com/search?q=leuc...irrel&tbm=isch

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Originally Posted by jmiles50

So, I realized Lessers and Mojo's make BEL's when bred to each other. Do you also get super's (BEL) when you breed a Lesser to a Mojave???

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Mojave genotype = mojave gene paired with normal gene
Lesser genotype = lesser gene paired with normal gene

Offspring from a lesser royal python mated to a mojave:
1/4 normal (two normal genes)
1/4 mojave (mojave gene paired with normal gene)
1/4 lesser (lesser gene paired with normal gene)
1/4 BEL (lesser gene paired with mojave gene)

A super should have two copies of the same codominant mutant gene. A snake with two copies of the lesser gene would be a super, and a snake with two copies of the mojave mutant gene would be a super. I would not call a snake with lesser gene paired with a mojave gene a super. On the other hand, there are some pretty strange definitions of "super" floating around, including one that claims a snake is a super if it looks like a super. In this case, a snake with a lesser gene paired with a mojave gene looks like a super with two lesser genes. So it may come down to which definition of super you are using.

However, super is not a standard genetics term. Using standard terms, a snake with a lesser mutant gene paired with a mojave mutant gene is a lesser/mojave heterozygote, and a snake with two lesser genes is a lesser homozygote.