Substrate question

So I'm in the process of painstakingly and meticulously planning to get my very first snake. If I really really like them like I'm pretty sure I will then I plan to try my hand and hobby breeding on the small scale at first to see how I do. That being said I've obviously looked into how I would feed them. Thus how I find myself in the rat breeding thread here. But I digress, my main question for you all would be this. I've read conflicting opinions on whether it is safe or not to use kiln dried pine chips as rat substrate. Obviously using pine or cedar as a substrate for your snakes is a big no no as the oils can be toxic. Also there are those who would say that kiln drying doesn't remove enough of the oils from the pine chips so just go ahead and steer clear.... Well that got me thinking. The company I work for shreds a lot of paper and just throws it out. Would it be viable to just take it off their hands and use that as substrate for the rats? On that note could the same shredded paper be just as good for snakes as well? If so, I think I've found a way to cut my cost on bedding significantly. Though I'm not sure of the caveats of using paper with ink printed on it. I don't imagine it'd be too detrimental to either animals. It would be a mixture of regular inkjet printer ink and toner from laserjets, possibly even MICR toner from check printers.

Thoughts?

You can definitely use paper substrate for both snakes and rats. However, paper is rubbish at odor control. So if that doesn't bother you, it's fine to use.
Many people use newspaper or paper towel substrate for their snakes with no issue. The ink shouldn't be a problem other than possibly staining your lighter colored snakes.

Great to know, at the very least it's an option. I would more than likely keep the rats in my garage and the snakes in the house. So perhaps I'd rethink using it as substrate for the snakes if I want some sort of odor control. Also I'd rather not stain my snakes. Though the stain should come off in a shed correct?

What would be your recommendation for the most cost effective substrate that does well at odor control. I get the feeling there won't be a miracle substrate I can find on the cheap. It seems that it's either one special one for odor, another super cheap crappy one, or another special type that does well with humidity. But any information would be handy. Thanks a lot Nikki.

Many people use Aspen as it works better at controlling odor than paper towels. You can generally get a gigantic bag for $15-20. Every substrate is going to have a downfall though. I personally use Aspen for my snakes as do two large breeders and a smaller breeder as well.

The big bag of aspen:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1_10.05.14.jpg

Be careful of paper because some inks are toxic to small animals.

Kiln dried pine is fine to use. Regular pine is not. The kiln drying process removes the oils. Kiln dried pine is the only bedding I use for my critters.

i use kiln dried pine from tractor supple, $5 for a 40lb bag. My mice are kept in a warm room, and i don't remember the last time I had one with a URI.

Has someone here found a commercial pine bedding that is not dried?

Just asking................

+1 on kiln dried pine. Cheap, works great, and safe.


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Has someone here found a commercial pine bedding that is not dried?

Just asking................

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Yep.

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Awesome - please link to product, or at least name it.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Be careful of paper because some inks are toxic to small animals.
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Actually not so much anymore. It used to be a problem when inks were made with petroleum based products but virtually all inks used in the past 20 years have been made with soy based products.

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Originally Posted by Madscrills

Great to know, at the very least it's an option. I would more than likely keep the rats in my garage and the snakes in the house. So perhaps I'd rethink using it as substrate for the snakes if I want some sort of odor control. Also I'd rather not stain my snakes. Though the stain should come off in a shed correct?

What would be your recommendation for the most cost effective substrate that does well at odor control. I get the feeling there won't be a miracle substrate I can find on the cheap. It seems that it's either one special one for odor, another super cheap crappy one, or another special type that does well with humidity. But any information would be handy. Thanks a lot Nikki.

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Staining does come off with sheds.
There's a number of things you can use for snakes. Aspen, Cypress mulch, coco coir, reptibark, etc etc. Aspen can mold when wet, so keep that in mind. But its probably the cheapest if you order online. Spot cleaning is easier with a wood bedding than paper, imo. Many people just spot clean their wood bedding and do a full dump once a month or every few weeks. Paper has to be cleaned and dumped every time the snake makes a mess.
If you have humidity issues, the cypress and coco are great at retaining moisture.

Some people do use kiln dried pine with both snakes and rats. Kiln dried pine is the best at controlling odors in my opinion than other substrates. But I only use pine on rats. My snakes get paper and shredded aspen.



I personally dislike the bedding from Tractor Supply. If you have a local supplier for America's Choice Eco Flakes, I highly recommend that. Its way more absorbent and lasts longer in odor control than the Tractor Supply one in my experience. I've used the TS one when I needed bedding in a pinch, and wow. I used it for 2 weeks, couldnt stand it, and gave the rest away. My rat tubs got way more soiled and smelly is less time compared than the Eco Flakes. It just didn't absorb well. And I don't think the rats were very comfortable on it either. Its really hard and pokey.


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Awesome - please link to product, or at least name it.

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http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...covers-8-cu-ft

There is one example. Nowhere does it say kiln dried and if you touch it you can tell its not kiln dried. It is also mostly dust. I had a bag donated to me once as a thank you for rescuing some mice.

How are you guys getting a smell with paper towels?

I'm pretty sure TS bedding is kiln dried. Or at least now it is. I used it years ago once and I swore it gave my rats RI. But decided to try out again a few months ago when I needed it in a pinch because so many people use/recommend it.
Tons of people have been using it on their rodents and reptiles with no ill effect. So it can't be that toxic..... Most, if not all, commercial wood beddings are kiln dries these days.

I just personally hate it due to odor and absorption issues

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Has someone here found a commercial pine bedding that is not dried?

Just asking................

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The stuff at tractor supply, I'm not sure if it -wasn't- kiln dried before, but it used to be awful. It would stink your whole house up like pine. And one day they switched the packaging and it barely smells like pine at all. Like I said, I'm guessing it was still kiln dried to some extent, but it used to stank.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

How are you guys getting a smell with paper towels?

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When they pee or poop, it smells terrible in my opinion. Paper doesn't smell in general since reptiles don't really smell. But they do have high concentrated urine. When using a wood shavings, the odor of urine and feces is totally absent imo.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...covers-8-cu-ft

There is one example. Nowhere does it say kiln dried and if you touch it you can tell its not kiln dried. It is also mostly dust. I had a bag donated to me once as a thank you for rescuing some mice.

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Hmmmm. It says dried right in the description and before we go there, they only dry shavings one way. Wood must be kiln dried before processing so that the moisture content is below 19%. This eliminates bacteria and molds that can cause shavings to beak down and also makes them more hygienic. That it why I have never seen an animal bedding product that is not kiln dried. It's not about the reduction of aromatics, but about making a more stable hygienic product.

How can you tell whether it's kiln dried by touching it? Hint, just because the wood is moist does not mean it wasn't first kiln dried. Just means it's moist, as the packaging is not moisture proof and these bags are often kept outside. Is there another method for figuring this out by touching it? Smelling it? Tasting it?

It must be since I clean the cage right after the pee or poo the cage never stinks?

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Originally Posted by fishdip

It must be since I clean the cage right after the pee or poo the cage never stinks?

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Lol. How large are your snakes? I clean right away too, but their waste still smells imo.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I'm pretty sure TS bedding is kiln dried. Most processed wood is.
But if its not, well. Tons of people have been using it on their rodents and reptiles with no ill effect. So it can't be that toxic.....

(I just personally hate it due to odor and absorption issues)

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I had three mice die and two gerbils. The rest just got RIs and bloody noses.

Wood bedding is absorbent and the best on odor in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Lol. How large are your snakes? I clean right away too, but their waste still smells imo.

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Small he is just now eating rat crawlers.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Wood bedding is absorbent and the best on odor in my opinion.

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I don't disagree. I just think other brands are more absorbant and better at odor control than the TS one.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

Small he is just now eating rat crawlers.

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Wait till he grows up and poops out large dog size turds. ;)
Haha


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Hmmmm. It says dried right in the description and before we go there, they only dry shavings one way. Wood must be kiln dried before processing so that the moisture content is below 19%. This eliminates bacteria and molds that can cause shavings to beak down and also makes them more hygienic. That it why I have never seen an animal bedding product that is not kiln dried. It's not about the reduction of aromatics, but about making a more stable hygienic product.

How can you tell whether it's kiln dried by touching it? Hint, just because the wood is moist does not mean it wasn't first kiln dried. Just means it's moist, as the packaging is not moisture proof and these bags are often kept outside. Is there another method for figuring this out by touching it? Smelling it? Tasting it?

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Smell and touch. Plus if you bake it, sap comes out so clearly it was not put in an actual kiln.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Smell and touch. Plus if you bake it, sap comes out so clearly it was not put in an actual kiln.

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It says dried on the bag. We have established that and we have established that they only dry wood shavings one way - in a kiln. Smell is not an indicator - many kiln dried pine shavings smell heavily of, well, pine. Go figure.

So Tractor Supply is lying? Have you notified the rest of the reptile world of this cover up and the ensuing holocaust of death inflicted on your rodents?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It says dried on the bag. We have established that and we have established that they only dry wood shavings one way - in a kiln. Smell is not an indicator - many kiln dried pine shavings smell heavily of, well, pine. Go figure.

So Tractor Supply is lying? Have you notified the rest of the reptile world of this cover up and the ensuing holocaust of death inflicted on your rodents?

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Unless they have changed the bag, it does not say dried or kiln dried. I searched that entire bag searching for it. And yes, there are other ways to dry wood. Air-drying. That's why you have to make sure it specifies that it is kiln-dried.

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Unless they have changed the bag, it does not say dried or kiln dried. I searched that entire bag searching for it. And yes, there are other ways to dry wood. Air-drying. That's why you have to make sure it specifies that it is kiln-dried.

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Look at the link you sent me. Read the Description portion of the product. It say's dried.

Let's clear a few things up so that we all understand what the kiln drying process does - it does nothing more than reduce the total moisture % from 19 or 20 down to about 15. It does not remove ALL of the moisture - so do not expect your pine bedding to be moisture free. It does not remove all of the phenols - so do not expect your pine bedding to be phenol free. By the very description you gave, the TSC bedding is kiln dried.

Now about "air drying". Air drying actually produces a slightly superior bedding (2 to 4% more moisture reduction), sadly only a few very comparably expensive and non-commerically available manufacturers utilize these mostly custom and/or proprietary processes. There are also high temperature heat dried shavings, which are very dry, brittle and dusty AND, not easily obtained at your local feed store.

The pine shavings you buy at Petco, TS, Petsmart, Premium Pet Mart, Pet Club etc are all kiln dried. Some are even kiln dried and then nominally air dried.

Let's get back on point here. All bedding shavings are dried in some manner or another. 99% of them are kiln dried because it is the fastest and least expensive method of drying wood shavings.

However, it is not as effective as removing moisture and phenols as the other two methods which the vast majority of wood shaving purchasers never see for sale.

In the past, I had a line through an local equestrian center on JTS soft wood bedding - which is an air dried product. It was about double the cost (even in bulk) of buying Mallard Creek bedding and frankly, the differences were minimal. Slightly less odor and slightly drier. Not worth the added expense.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Look at the link you sent me. Read the Description portion of the product. It say's dried.

Let's clear a few things up so that we all understand what the kiln drying process does - it does nothing more than reduce the total moisture % from 19 or 20 down to about 15. It does not remove ALL of the moisture - so do not expect your pine bedding to be moisture free. It does not remove all of the phenols - so do not expect your pine bedding to be phenol free. By the very description you gave, the TSC bedding is kiln dried.

Now about "air drying". Air drying actually produces a slightly superior bedding (2 to 4% more moisture reduction), sadly only a few very comparably expensive and non-commerically available manufacturers utilize these mostly custom and/or proprietary processes. There are also high temperature heat dried shavings, which are very dry, brittle and dusty AND, not easily obtained at your local feed store.

The pine shavings you buy at Petco, TS, Petsmart, Premium Pet Mart, Pet Club etc are all kiln dried. Some are even kiln dried and then nominally air dried.

Let's get back on point here. All bedding shavings are dried in some manner or another. 99% of them are kiln dried because it is the fastest and least expensive method of drying wood shavings.

However, it is not as effective as removing moisture and phenols as the other two methods which the vast majority of wood shaving purchasers never see for sale.

In the past, I had a line through an local equestrian center on JTS soft wood bedding - which is an air dried product. It was about double the cost (even in bulk) of buying Mallard Creek bedding and frankly, the differences were minimal. Slightly less odor and slightly drier. Not worth the added expense.

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I use mallard creek tri mix equine bedding and have been happy with it thus far. Out of pine/fir beddings what is your take on MC TM?


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

Oh wow TONS of replies. It seems that joining this community is one of the best things I've done. So from what I've read, by and large kiln dried pine doesn't seem to have much of an adverse affect on rats or snakes. For safety reasons if I decided to just use the pine as bedding for the rats and maybe aspen for my snakes to avoid any phenols do you guys think I would have a problem feeding the snake the rats?

Thanks a ton for everyones knowledge and input. I can't imagine how often this gets debated so thank you for bearing with me.

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

I use mallard creek tri mix equine bedding and have been happy with it thus far. Out of pine/fir beddings what is your take on MC TM?


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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Same here. Mallard Creek makes a nice product.