Ball python losing weight

[IMG]http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/...1389083809.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/...1389083859.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/...1389083682.jpg[/IMG]I posted a few days ago about my ball python which I got on dec 31. I've left him alone for the past couple days and tried to get his enclosure just right in terms of heat and humidity etc. But his weight really worries me he is looking really thin. I will be attempting to feed him tommorow and hoping that goes well. Would like some advice as to what to offer him, he has not eaten since I got him from lllreptiles. I emailed them and asked what they were feeding him but they haven't replied. In my previous post a couple people said I should do live feeding to get him to eat then switch to frozen thawed later. Again any advice or help would be appreciated. And in that third pic I found that in it's tank I think it's just it's poop but I'm not sure looks kind of weird.

That snake is very thin. However,if you only just got him,it's not surprising he hasn't eaten yet. Make sure you don't handle him until he's eating for you reliably. I would try a slightlysmaller-than-average live prey, a rat fuzzy maybe.

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Definitely get that baby a live mouse hopper or a live rat fuzzy. Forget the f/t for now. Once he's eating and has good weight try again. If he eats go with a 5 day feeding schedule. And yes that's poop

x2 what monkee said. The most important part is this little guy eating.

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Originally Posted by Alx

In my previous post a couple people said I should do live feeding to get him to eat then switch to frozen thawed later. Again any advice or help would be appreciated.

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Feed him live to get him some food and switch to FT later when he's healthy.

Ditto the live hopper, and ASAP in my opinion. That snake isn't just thin, it's painfully so.

Did it look like that when it arrived?

Man, you only had him 7 days and he is that thin? That is not right, there is no way he would look like that in 7 days. He was well underfed before he shipped to you and probably should not have shipped. I agree with the others, feed him something live to start (mouse hopper / rat pup) to start.

Forget F/T right now. Get him on LIVE hopper mice or rat fuzzies right now. You can try to make the switch later, but right now he needs to eat. :(

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Thank you everyone I will be getting him live feed, do I just place it in the enclosure with my snake? I've read things about mice or rats biting/injuring the snake. Should I feed it in a separate tub? Just don't want him to die :/.

No he didn't look this bad when he arrived. He was a little thin but nothing this noticeable :/

Mice hoppers and rat fuzzies don't put up much of a fight, but be ready with a pencil or a pair of feeding tongs to stick in the feeder's mouth if it tries to bite. You can feed in the enclosure, if you're uncomfortable with substrate ingestion put down a paper towel or paper plate.

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If you haven't even tried f/t, I don't see the point in starting with live prey. If I understood correctly, you don't know much about his history, so you don't know the actual reason for his conditition either.

Believe it or not, it is possible to feed most of the ball pythons with just f/t. Even the ones that have always eaten just live, even the ones that are in very poor condition for some reason. I believe that the live prey is hardly ever a necessity. Of course it is "the easy way out" of the bad situation, but in my opinion, not the best.

Just saying :)

To heck with any debate about f/t vs. live. I'd get whatever you can that he will eat. Snake is crazy thin and I would assume in danger of dying. Feeding in his enclosure may help with stress levels. Just feed him.

Oh my, yes get him a smaller than normal live mouse to get him eating. Start off the first couple weeks with once a week, then try going on a five day schedule of 20% of the animals body weight. Just go slow at first, just like a starving human, to much food to quickly can do more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by jaded

If you haven't even tried f/t, I don't see the point in starting with live prey. If I understood correctly, you don't know much about his history, so you don't know the actual reason for his conditition either.

Believe it or not, it is possible to feed most of the ball pythons with just f/t. Even the ones that have always eaten just live, even the ones that are in very poor condition for some reason. I believe that the live prey is hardly ever a necessity. Of course it is "the easy way out" of the bad situation, but in my opinion, not the best.

Just saying :)

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The "easy way out" is to feed an animal what it's programmed by millions of years of evolution to eat?

Odd.

That seems bizarre.

Just saying :)

If he has deteriorated that much in 7 days, there is something else going on other than needing to eat. A BP shouldn't lose much, if any, weight in that time period. I would suspect that he is dehydrated at a minimum.

Also, it looks like LLL Reptiles has replied to your other thread and is trying to get in touch with you. I'm sure if you call them they will be able to give you lots of help getting this guy settled in.

Good luck with your snake.
I also agree with trying a live hopper mouse. If he hasn't eaten with you and he's that skinny, you want the best chances in him actually eating. So that's why we suggest feeding live and in the enclosure. Live always gives you the best chance at jump starting a feed response. Then once he's gets to a better body condition and a more consistent eater, you can try to convert to F/T.

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Originally Posted by thejenius77

Forget F/T right now. Get him on LIVE hopper mice or rat fuzzies right now. You can try to make the switch later, but right now he needs to eat. :(

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I don't think I've ever seen a snake that malnourished. I STRONGLY suggest a vet visit in the VERY near future! No, scratch that... I'm BEGGING you. PLEASE take that little one to the vet!

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Originally Posted by Alx

No he didn't look this bad when he arrived. He was a little thin but nothing this noticeable :/

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I'm not going to lie, I'm REALLY shocked by this coming from LLL Reptile and getting this bad in a week and change. I've seen one other LLL animal that was in bad shape, and that one was TOTALLY due to the kid that owned it. I'm NOT saying this is YOUR fault, so please don't take offense. In fact, I have quite a bit of respect for the way you're approaching this. LLL is my local shop, and I honestly go there for EVERYTHING. I've seen nothing but quality from them. I'd reach out to them here on the boards and see what Jenn suggests.

I'm getting the feeling that this snake was pretty sick when you got it, but I could be WAY off. If it was sick, I'm 100% sure LLL didn't have any idea.


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There is a big difference between animals in the nature and our pet snakes. I hope everybody understands that.

There is no reason to feed live. No reason to put snake at risk. You wouldn't strangle your snake to death, no reason to do it to the prey either.
But maybe this is not the place for this discussion.

Maybe OP's snake has been on f/t all his life. Maybe the previous owner just neclegted his care. Nobody knows. It's plain stupid to start with live when it may very well take f/t. If it simply wont accept f/t, then by all means give it a live one.

To give you a little perspective, here is Hope's story: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nourished-ball
I got tons of good advice with Hope, maybe there is something useful for you too :)

Looking at your other thread, I'm more and more convinced that dehydration is part, if not most, of your problem. If you are using that stick on dial to measure temps, and that is reading 90F, your tank is probably too hot, especially given that you have two lamps and a UTH running. The dial is a few inches above the substrate, not on the substrate where the snake actually is. So, I would recommend getting either a thermometer with a probe or a temp gun ASAP. I would also suggest a soak in lukewarm (80-85F) water. I'd put water in a shoebox tub so that it comes about halfway up the snake's side (you don't want him to have to swim). Put him in the shoebox, and leave him for about 15-20min.

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Originally Posted by jaded

There is a big difference between animals in the nature and our pet snakes. I hope everybody understands that.

There is no reason to feed live. No reason to put snake at risk. You wouldn't strangle your snake to death, no reason to do it to the prey either.
But maybe this is not the place for this discussion.

Maybe OP's snake has been on f/t all his life. Maybe the previous owner just neclegted his care. Nobody knows. It's plain stupid to start with live when it may very well take f/t. If it simply wont accept f/t, then by all means give it a live one.

To give you a little perspective, here is Hope's story: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nourished-ball
I got tons of good advice with Hope, maybe there is something useful for you too :)

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Careful!! That's a VERY slippery slope. Honestly, there are a LOT of reasons to feed live, just as there are a lot of reasons to feed f/t. Full disclosure, I feed f/t, and Ajja has only had 3 live mice since I got her @ 8 weeks. Incidentally, she also came from LLL.

While there IS a difference between wild and CB, in the first few months, you want to stick as close to the behaviors and instincts of a wild BP as possible. I'm not an animal psychologist, veterinarian, or herpetologist, but animal behavior IS a major interest and area of study for me. I may have some...unorthodox ideas (right, Neal? No hard feelings, I love you, man!), the fact remains that until you've worked with an individual animal for quite a while, your beat bet is to rely on its natural instincts. In this case, that means live prey until you get consistent feeding. If he wants to switch to f/t or pre killed later on, great. For now though, the last thing the OP needs to worry about is training this little guy to do something out of the ordinary (from a wild BP perspective). I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that if an animal will feed f/t consistently, there's no reason not to do that. Later, though.

To the OP, I've made two moron mistakes today. In this case, I completely blanked on dehydration being a possibility. HOWEVER... I still say go to a vet. If it is dehydration, that gets her on the road to health and contentment. If not, they're going to be able to figure out the problem and help you fix it.

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Originally Posted by jaded

It's plain stupid to start with live

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Feeding live is not stupid. It never is. You can do it stupidly (give your 220g snake a 150g, dehydrated, hungry rat), but feeding live in and of itself is not stupid. It never will be.

It may be convenient to feed FT. It may be less expensive. It may make you think you're doing something more humane. You may have a lot of reasons to feed FT.

Your snake doesn't care. It will eat live rodents. It always will. It's not worried about inconveniencing you, costing you money, or hurting a mouse's feelings by crushing the life out of it. Those are things you worry about.

Thanks you everyone for your replies and concerns lll reptile did comment on my other post and I have called them and they gave me some advice and told me to contact them back in the next few days with how my snake was doing. He is currently soaking in lukewarm water. I will be offering him food in a bit after his soak. I bought a live mouse smallest I could get, and a frozen thawed one figured if try and offer frozen thawed. My concern is I don't think he is done shedding his eyes are pale and cracked so I'm not sure what his feeding response will be if he doesn't take food and this soak doesn't help him I will be going to a vet that sees snakes. Hoping for the best and I'll keep this post updated. Thank you again.

Guys, this thread isn't a live vs. FT thread, there are at least two other threads like that on the Index page alone right now. If you have beefs with feeding one way or the other, take it there.

This thread is about helping a pretty sad-looking snake and its keeper. If you have useful suggestions or experience, this is the place to post.

OP, feed whatever you feel comfortable with/whatever the snake will eat to get it started. You can always switch later, but right now that guy needs a small meal, and then a few heartier ones when he keeps that moving through his digestive tract. (The hydration soak definitely couldn't hurt either!)

Is this the snake you purchased from LLLreptile? If so I would contact them.

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Originally Posted by jaded

There is a big difference between animals in the nature and our pet snakes. I hope everybody understands that.

There is no reason to feed live. No reason to put snake at risk. You wouldn't strangle your snake to death, no reason to do it to the prey either.
But maybe this is not the place for this discussion.

Maybe OP's snake has been on f/t all his life. Maybe the previous owner just neclegted his care. Nobody knows. It's plain stupid to start with live when it may very well take f/t. If it simply wont accept f/t, then by all means give it a live one.

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I urge you to get off your high horse and throw out that attitude.

1) Not all CB snakes will take F/T. Some snakes are picky enough to even refuse live. And *most* snakes that are already picky on live will not take F/T.

2) Not all F/T feedings are risk free - tons of snakes have died from being fed an improperly thawed out feeder. Snakes go into a system shock from eating a rat with a still frozen core even though the outer temp was good.

3) A snake coiling a rat is no different from euthanizing it via CO2. In fact, I deem it more humane since a snake coil does stimulates endorphins, which does dull pain receptors. CO2 is not pain free. Humane, yes, but it does sting the eyes and nose. (I work in a research lab and have euthanized hundreds of animals via CO2)
And both methods take about the same time to kill a rodent.

Snakes have evolved to be efficient killers over millions of years. A coil is efficient and humane in regards to the prey.

4) Feeding live is not stupid. And offering a live prey can be a life saver in situations, such as this one. You want to offer the snake the best possible chance at eating and regaining that weight. And as I mentioned before, live is the best jump starter for the feed response. And as a snake that is potentially sensitive, f/t may not work.

There are pros and cons to both live and F/T.
Neither are risk free.
Everyone should feed what works for them. If that's F/T that's fine. If that's live, that is *also* fine. Saying one or the other is 'stupid', is the most ridiculous thing I've heard since BOS Reptiles.

Yes it is the snake that I got from lllreptiles. I've contacted them and they have me
some advice. After his soak he seems a lot brighter in color and it also helped his shed. A bit after his soak I tried offering him the frozen thawed mouse but he didn't take it. I feel it's in part because he is shedding his eyes are still pale and cracked. I'm not sure if I should put the live mouse with him while he is in shed. I'm hoping it was just dehydration. Is this caused because it's too hot or becuase it not humid enough? Humidity reads at 70% atm and the temp on the hot side reads 80. I'm gonna head to the store in a few to get a digital thermometer/hydrometer with a probe as the current plastic one seems worthless. It will read 80 but my thermostat which is set to 89 will turn the heat off while the plastic thermometer still reads 80. Should I continuer to soak him? Maybe once a day? And should I still offer him the live mouse while shedding ?

1) If the live mouse is an appropriate size, I would go ahead and offer it. You may have better luck if you don't hover, and turn the lights off.
2) Those analog gauges are notoriously inaccurate, so you are right to get rid of it. The other issue is that the gauge isn't measuring the temperature at the same location as the thermostat probe, or even in a location where the snake actually is. You don't really need to know what the temperature is along the glass a few inches up in the air. That isn't where the snake is likely to be. You need to know the temperature on the cage floor where the snake actually is, on both the warm and cool sides.
3)The thermostat you have can work, but it isn't all that accurate either. So you really need a good thermometer to verify what your temps are. You may find that having that thermostat set at 89 doesn't actually give you an 89 degree temperature. It may take some tweaking to get everything right. Partially, it is because that thermostat has temperature settings that are not all that precise and partially it is because it is an on/off thermostat that doesn't check the temperature all that often. So your heat sources may be heating things up quickly and the thermostat may not be keeping up, if that makes sense.

I am curious to see what the temps actually are...I am guessing they are higher than you think.

With as dry as the substrate is in the cage, plus shedding, plus a poop - the snake is likely just dehydrated.

When I checked on recently shipped pastels, I was told the only one shipped on the 30th to arrive the 31st was a vanilla pastel - I saw and took pictures of those exact snakes just days before yours was sent out to you. They were sassy little snakes, very pretty, and I had used them in earlier pictures for Christmas posts as well.

They were feeding on regular, live adult mice at the store.

Again, please keep us posted - it probably looks the way it does due to being too dry while trying to shed. While the dial humidity gauges can be helpful, they are often quite inaccurate. I would make sure the moss in the cage is nice and wet (dunk it in a container of water for a bit, then put it in the cage pretty much dripping wet), and look into switching out the substrate for something that holds more moisture ASAP.

It is likely that the snake won't want to eat with a stuck shed on it, but that is not something to worry about quite yet. If it doesn't eat the live mouse, leave the F/T one in overnight, and then don't try again for a full week. Call back each week if the snake doesn't eat to keep us posted so that we can take care of you if there are continued issues.

I think the non-balled up snake in this picture is the one that OP was shipped - this is the week before OP would have received the snake. I remember these vanilla pastels - I wanted one myself!

http://lllreptile.com/load-image/Sto...ge/image/11348

-Jen

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Originally Posted by Alx

Humidity reads at 70% atm and the temp on the hot side reads 80. I'm gonna head to the store in a few to get a digital thermometer/hydrometer with a probe as the current plastic one seems worthless. It will read 80 but my thermostat which is set to 89 will turn the heat off while the plastic thermometer still reads 80.

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Where is your t-stat probe?

Tried frozen thawed he didn't take it. Have the live mouse in the enclosure but he isn't taking it either. It might be because he is shedding i can see the old skin coming off. Just hoping he hangs in there and eats. After his she's is done

The t stay probe is right by his hide on his warm side

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Originally Posted by Alx

The t stay probe is right by his hide on his warm side

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It needs to be between the UTH and the bottom of the tank, or taped to the bottom of the UTH. If it's in the tank your ball python can move it off the heat, or he can pee on it, which will cool it off and cause everything to run too hot.

At this point I think he was dehydrated. I was relying on the plastic therm/hydrometer that came with the tank setup and that was my mistake it always read lower so there I was trying to up the heat basically cooking my poor snake. Finally got an indoor out door thermometer that also reads in door humidity. I use the outside probe and placed to under the hide where the heat pad lies. And sure enough without the ceramic heat emmiter even on the hide was alrdy @90 degrees. The cold mornings always put me on edge and there I was again trying to raise the temperature. But now I can accurately read the temperatures and have given the snake 2 soaks and hoping he recovers back to normal. As a first time snake owner I'm a little mad at myself for being a bit uninformed and unprepared. But I wanna thank everyone here and LLLreptiles for reaching out to me and giving me all the feed back and advice! I'll see how he does in the morning. And I'll be placing the thermostat probe to the under tank heater someone had mentioned that to me earlier. Thank you!

Cool, glad you were able to get the temperatures sorted out!

Please do add more moisture to the cage - like I said, soak that moss you have in there in water to help with humidity, mist the cage, and you can even put some of the moss inside the hides. Moist bedding that evaporates up into the air of the cage is the biggest help to keeping humidity up; it'll also help the snake get the skin off.

:) Share pics once the shed is all off and he eats for you! Those vanilla pastels were gorgeous, you scored a great looking snake.

-Jen

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Originally Posted by jaded

There is a big difference between animals in the nature and our pet snakes. I hope everybody understands that.

There is no reason to feed live. No reason to put snake at risk. You wouldn't strangle your snake to death, no reason to do it to the prey either.
But maybe this is not the place for this discussion.

Maybe OP's snake has been on f/t all his life. Maybe the previous owner just neclegted his care. Nobody knows. It's plain stupid to start with live when it may very well take f/t. If it simply wont accept f/t, then by all means give it a live one.

To give you a little perspective, here is Hope's story: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nourished-ball
I got tons of good advice with Hope, maybe there is something useful for you too :)

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Part of this is true............. our snakes are usually FAT compared to a wild snake. Other than that you evidently have no clue what good a live hopper mouse can do for a hatchlings feeding response. I personally have probably close to 10,000 live feedings with no problems and there are other members/breeders here that make mine look small. Most of the live accidents are keepers faults. Monitoring is the key and if the rodent has not been taken in 10 or so minutes then its time to remove it.
Its a too each his own thing but have some knowledge of YOUR opinions before you post them.

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Thank you again for reaching out and giving me advice. I have been soaking the moss and spraying the enclosure. Ill def post pics when he has fed! Still trying to get the temperatures and humidity just right!

Didn't know how else to reach out to you on here just wanted to say thank you again! My snake is doing 100% better and has eaten twice. I posted some updated pics in the pics forums.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Looking at your other thread, I'm more and more convinced that dehydration is part, if not most, of your problem. If you are using that stick on dial to measure temps, and that is reading 90F, your tank is probably too hot, especially given that you have two lamps and a UTH running. The dial is a few inches above the substrate, not on the substrate where the snake actually is. So, I would recommend getting either a thermometer with a probe or a temp gun ASAP. I would also suggest a soak in lukewarm (80-85F) water. I'd put water in a shoebox tub so that it comes about halfway up the snake's side (you don't want him to have to swim). Put him in the shoebox, and leave him for about 15-20min.

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Reading through this thread and the ops follow up thread yesterday ...
I'd say you should be congratulated for saving the snakes life !

Good work !!

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

1) If the live mouse is an appropriate size, I would go ahead and offer it. You may have better luck if you don't hover, and turn the lights off.
2) Those analog gauges are notoriously inaccurate, so you are right to get rid of it. The other issue is that the gauge isn't measuring the temperature at the same location as the thermostat probe, or even in a location where the snake actually is. You don't really need to know what the temperature is along the glass a few inches up in the air. That isn't where the snake is likely to be. You need to know the temperature on the cage floor where the snake actually is, on both the warm and cool sides.
3)The thermostat you have can work, but it isn't all that accurate either. So you really need a good thermometer to verify what your temps are. You may find that having that thermostat set at 89 doesn't actually give you an 89 degree temperature. It may take some tweaking to get everything right. Partially, it is because that thermostat has temperature settings that are not all that precise and partially it is because it is an on/off thermostat that doesn't check the temperature all that often. So your heat sources may be heating things up quickly and the thermostat may not be keeping up, if that makes sense.

I am curious to see what the temps actually are...I am guessing they are higher than you think.

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This was your second post on the issue and again you we're spot on with your comments and advice .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

This was your second post on the issue and again you we're spot on with your comments and advice .

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Firestorm hasn't been on since 06-26-2015 06:03
Are you just trying to pad your post count by robbing graves?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Firestorm hasn't been on since 06-26-2015 06:03
Are you just trying to pad your post count by robbing graves?

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I just realised that point a short while ago and even mentioned that very fact in the ops other thread ..... as you well know !

Far from upping my post count which means diddly squat to me .... I was heaping praise on a fellow forum member .

I actually find your post quite worrying as it comes across as being rather provocative ...

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Far from upping my post count which means diddly squat to me .... I was heaping praise on a fellow forum member .

I actually find your post quite worrying as it comes across as being rather provocative ...

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Tsk Tsk, that Rob. He's just such a provocateur. :P LOL, seriously though, when we see thread necromancy especially from a long time member, it makes us wonder......

No sexual desires here..... Not my type LoL