Opinions on PVC

Hello,

I am just wondering if anyone has tried the PVC-style cages for ball pythons (and other snakes), and what their opinions are on them.

I am planning on getting 1 or 2 this week - but I am unsure if I should get two stacked upon one another, or one with a built-in divider. I have one ball python and one corn snake. My only concern is the heat source. My ball python has needed a heat lamp along with the UTH + thermostat or course, because the ambient air drops without it, which is why I was thinking one cage with a divider would be best.

What does everyone think?

Thanks! :)

Love them. Check Herphouses.com since you are in Ontario. I believe you can get them with RHP's and LED light installed to save you some time just, a thermostat some hygrometer and thermometers and you are good to go.
I only have misted once or twice between substrate changes when the ambient air was exceedingly dry and a snake was going into shed otherwise, the water bowl maintains humidity very nicely.

I haven't found them to lose heat any quicker than they lose moisture. They tent to be mostly low airflow designs making cleaning that much more important. On the plus side the PVC is very easy to disinfect.

I believe PVC is the best material for cages. Its relatively light weight, easy to clean and disinfect, and does not rot over time like wood will. The only down side is price but I believe its worth the extra cost.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

I haven't found them to lose heat any quicker than they lose moisture. They tent to be mostly low airflow designs making cleaning that much more important. On the plus side the PVC is very easy to disinfect.

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You can also run tubing from an aquarium pump to get a little better air circulation. It's not going to eliminate cleaning (obviously) but it does increase fresh air.

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Interesting, thank you those who have replied!

Thank you Raven01 for the suggestion :) I have found someone else already who I will be buying from in Ontario.

I'm wondering now if it would be best to buy the side-by-side enclosure rather than the stackable enclosure - to save money, as well as control the heat better (since I have two different species with different needs, stacking could be tricky). My worry is that the ball python will be too cold. Right now he's got a heat bulb on him... mind you, he's in a glass vive with a mesh lid so none of the heat stays in. If I were to get stacking vives, even though they save a lot of space, I don't know how I'd integrate another heat source for him. I don't think a second UTH would be sufficiant for his ambient air temp.

I have no other concerns with the corn snake, though :P

Any other advice would be appreciated!

Ambient temp can be heated by a radiant heat panel(rhp). It doesn't destroy humidity like a lamp would and most people use RHPs in PVC enclosures.

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Can I purchase RHP at reptile/pet stores as well? I have not heard about them before!

Not in pet stores. Reptile Basics sells them.

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So far I've used two different PVC cages; my first was a Vision and now I have an Animal Plastics.

With the Vision I used an UTH for hot spot and a CHL for overall ambient temp. The model Vision I had was built with a large vent down the top-middle of the cage (very poor design in my opinion), and this, along with the CHL, made maintaining humidity very difficult. I ended up misting at least once per day, during shed as much as two or three times. Temp wasn't bad, but definitely not optimum with the large vent.

About a month ago I made the move to the AP T-8 with sliding glass doors. Upon the recommendation of Ali at AP, I contacted Pro-Products about a RHP. The owner answered the phone and was EXTREMELY knowledgeable about heating all types of cages, and made a recommendation for the T-8 after asking questions about the room my ball would be in, the room ambient temp, and if I would be splitting the cage. I had the panel shipped directly to AP, where they installed it and shipped the entire cage to me. Initially I began using 100% cypress substrate, due to the humidity issues I experienced in my Vision cage. This was a big mistake; my humidity spiked to 100% (with condensation on my glass doors). I then replaced about half of the cypress with substrate that wasn't moist, and slowly my humidity began to decrease. After about two weeks it was pretty much stabilized between 50-60%. I am no longer using an UTH or CHL; the Pro-Productions RHP is doing an awesome job. The ambient temp on the cold side is holding at 80, with a hot spot temp between 89-92.

With the humidity spike I saw initially in my T-8, I agree with those that say airflow can be an issue. I would think a general cleaning once per month should be fine. For ease of keeping good humidity and heat, I love the PVC T-8. I don't see myself moving away from PVC at any time.

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Originally Posted by NH93

Can I purchase RHP at reptile/pet stores as well? I have not heard about them before!

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They always have them at the expo's. And you can order them online.
One reason I suggested HerpHouses.com is you can when ordering select options for LEDS, RHP's or both with your enclosure but, if you don't mind waiting I do know Cornel's World sells RHP's. I can't recall which vendors in Ontario had them for sale.

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Originally Posted by Charge

I am no longer using an UTH or CHL; the Pro-Productions RHP is doing an awesome job. The ambient temp on the cold side is holding at 80, with a hot spot temp between 89-92.

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How are you making sure that your BP doesn't touch the RHP since they get pretty hot? I have a pro-heat (PH-3 64 watt) pannel myself in my T12 and I'm afraid they'll burn themselves on it.

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The RHP is significantly cooler than a ceramic heat lamp. The RHP does get hot, but to get a serious burn a snake would have to be in contact with it for longer than just a few seconds. My ball has raised up to inspect it, but once he starts to feel the heat on his nose build up he backs away. Also, I'm able to rest my hand on the pad for at least 10 seconds without feeling a burning sensation.

I have edited my previous post above, because I went down and did a few tests on my RHP.

The Pro-Products RHP I have is significantly cooler than the CHL I used to use. RHP does get hot, but to get a serious burn a snake would have to be in contact with it for longer than just a few seconds. My ball has raised up to inspect it, but once he starts to feel the heat on his nose build up he backs away. Also, I'm able to rest the top of my hand against the pad continuously without feeling enough of a burning sensation requiring me to move my hand.

Also remember, your snake is not laying on the RHP, as it would with an UTH. When I hit the RHP with my temp gun, it measures at 143 degrees. If an UTH was being used and the temperature was measured in the tank at 143 degrees, I think you'd have some problems with burns if the snake remained on it constantly for the right amount of time. This is why they also recommend that a RHP be at least 6" away from any object placed underneath it, to prevent significant heat build-up.

Yikes. I really do not want an RHP now. No offense... but if it gets that hot, I don't care how far away it is from my snake - if he can touch it, it shouldn't be in there (in my opinion). If I can't rest my hand on it forever, I don't want it with him. Also, with a UTH it is the belly heat that helps with digestion. Unfortunately I don't think it helps with ambient air temp like an RHP.
Oh boy.

It has been suggested by the seller that I can remove the top partition of PVC and add in a mesh screen to add my heat bulb back into things (although of course this kind of ruins most of the original idea of maintaining heat and humidity).

I'm at a bit of a loss. I am picking up the cage on Sunday, so in 6 days.

I want to add also, about the RHP, my ball currently sleeps underneath his heat lamp every night. I have no idea why, when there's a UTH but he does. I know he would do the same with the RHP, which is why I don't want one... just in case.

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Originally Posted by Charge

The Pro-Products RHP I have is significantly cooler than the CHL I used to use. RHP does get hot, but to get a serious burn a snake would have to be in contact with it for longer than just a few seconds.

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That makes sense. Thanks for clearing things up. Now I need to figure my humidity issues. I think the RHP is killing my humidity. Even though it takes a lot longer for it to go down, my humidity dropped from 60 to 30 in about 3 days.

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Originally Posted by NH93

Yikes. I really do not want an RHP now. No offense... but if it gets that hot, I don't care how far away it is from my snake - if he can touch it, it shouldn't be in there (in my opinion).

I want to add also, about the RHP, my ball currently sleeps underneath his heat lamp every night. I have no idea why, when there's a UTH but he does. I know he would do the same with the RHP, which is why I don't want one... just in case.

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My RHP produces a heat of about 83 so I still have to have a UTH for belly heat. I don't think your ball will have a problem sleeping under the RHP.

Also, if your bp sleeps under the heat lamp all the time, your ambient temps might be a little low. Just a thought.

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If you really want to know about RHP's and talk to someone with a great deal of experience and technical expertise, I'd call Bob at Pro-Products. He will talk your ear off about everything heat related with snakes, but he's been in the "snake business" for many years around the world and he's a wealth of knowledge. He will definitely be able to answer any questions you have concerning RHP's and comparisons to UTH or CHL. He owns the company but he's not a pressure salesman; if he feels you'd be better off without a RHP or sticking with what you have, he'll tell you. He is in New York, and his number is 1-845-628-8960.

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Originally Posted by Misha

Also, if your bp sleeps under the heat lamp all the time, your ambient temps might be a little low. Just a thought.

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No worries there, the ambient air is steady at 78.5F on the "cool" side, and 82F on the "warm side", and he sleeps in his favourite spot on the cool side. He just cruises at night, but always ends up draped over a log under the heat lamp rather than in a hide above the UTH where the hot spot is 90F.

Thank you for the great suggestions everyone!

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Originally Posted by NH93

No worries there, the ambient air is steady at 78.5F on the "cool" side, and 82F on the "warm side", and he sleeps in his favourite spot on the cool side. He just cruises at night, but always ends up draped over a log under the heat lamp rather than in a hide above the UTH where the hot spot is 90F.

Thank you for the great suggestions everyone!

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Your warm side is a tad cooler than most use. Perhaps, this explains why I see my BP's hang out on the cool side almost exclusively except for a couple days after feeding. I maintain 88-90 degrees F on the warm hide side and 80-82 on the cool side.

Pretty sure I have heard of some people keeping an ambient overall of somewhere around 85-ish with no cool or hot spot successfully. That may or may not work well, I am just uncomfortable using it myself particularly with my snakes seeming to prefer the cooler side by and large.

EDIT: Also, you really should check out Cornel's World for the RHP's(not positive but, I think he sells Reptile Basics RHP's) they run from 28 watt to 160 watt there and when combined with proportional thermostats such as some Vivarium Electronics or Herpstats the burn risk should be significantly reduced as the RHP doesn't run at full power to attain a higher heat.

His FAQ's may be helpful in making your choice.
http://www.cornelsworld.com/accessor...eat-panels-faq
Good luck and you will love having an X-PVC set-up I'm sure.

Thank you. Where is Cornel's World located?

(Where he sits under the heat bulb is around 85F actually. There's not much I can do to warm up his "warm" side any further without cooking him... it's only a 15gal aquarium - with 50W red bulb. He does have a UTH, like I said, set at 90F but prefers not to use it!)

EDIT: Forgot to mention, that I measure the temps near the floor of the vive where he sits (78.5-81F), but he can climb closer to the mesh lid where the heat bulb sits outside, which is where the 85F comes from.

Cornel's I am pretty sure is run out of Alberta. So, hold ups at customs/exchange rates etc are a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by NH93

Thank you. Where is Cornel's World located?

(Where he sits under the heat bulb is around 85F actually. There's not much I can do to warm up his "warm" side any further without cooking him... it's only a 15gal aquarium - with 50W red bulb. He does have a UTH, like I said, set at 90F but prefers not to use it!)

EDIT: Forgot to mention, that I measure the temps near the floor of the vive where he sits (78.5-81F), but he can climb closer to the mesh lid where the heat bulb sits outside, which is where the 85F comes from.

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Greg is in Calgary, Alberta.

He's built my custom Bp cage and I use both an RHP and UTH (run by a herpstat 2).

I havent had any issues with my rhp, but it keeps my temperatures perfect!

Radient heat panels use radient heat as the name implies. This means that they actually heat the enclosure by warming things directly under them, ie the substrate, bottom of the cage, perches or if it's laying under the RHP, the snake it's self. They are a great and very safe heat source, but IMO are not as effective for heating terrestrial species like balls as a uth would be. I personally use a strip of 12" heat tape under the cage to heat my own boids. If you are going to use a devided cage to house both a bp and a corn you may actually find that just using heat on the bp's side may provide enough ambient heat in the corns side depending on the ambient room temps.

On a side not I would strongly caution you to avoid taking husbandry advice from a cage manufacturer that doesn't actually have any experience keeping reptiles. Regardless of who you decide to buy from please feel free to pm or email me with any questions you have regarding setup. I have over 20 years of experience keeping many different species including both of the ones in question for you. I'd be happy to help. After all the reason I started HerpHouses.com in the first place was because I was tired of keepers in Ontario not haveing a knowledgeable and professional source for reptile houseing.

Thank you!

Like I said, I'm not worried about buying the products - I seem to be able to find them okay. I'm not sure who you mean specifically, but where I am getting my cages from, the distributor does have snakes and uses the PVC cages as well. He is happy to show me how to set it up and suggest where to drill holes for extra wires (ie. for LED lights or that sort of thing) so I am not worried.

My worry is that I will set up my tanks, and they won't be what I need. As in, the ball python will be too cold and the corn will be too warm.

My idea right now is to have them in my spare room or my kitchen (ambient temp for both hovers at 75F), and have a larger heat mat for the ball python, covering about 1/3 of the tank bottom, and a smaller one for the corn. However, I think I will put the corn's UTH on the side closest to the ball python (so almost in the middle basically) so that if any heat escapes into the ball python's vive it will only warm it up. If any heat escapes into the corns vive from the other, it will already be near the "warm side". I will definitely have to fiddle around a bit before actually putting the snakes in to make sure nothing drops or skyrockets substantially.

I really appreciate all of the suggestions everyone is giving. Thank you all.

What your describing sounds like it should work fine. I'd just set up the cage and let it run for a day or 2 to make sure that it's holding at where you want it on both sides. Regardless of any heat bleeding between the 2 sides the thermostats should adjust your heat mats to compensate any way.

Thanks Jason!

It's going to be tricky, as I've only got one thermostat for each snake... therefore, I'll have to move the snakes into the new tanks on the same day I set them up (only having two I don't have a tonne of extra things lying around to keep them cozy during the process).

Are there any specific LED lights or other accessories you think would make it look awesome (and obviously be safe for the snakes)?
Also, any ideas where to get a stand for the PVC cage? I'm having trouble coming up with something that will look nice and go with the PVC, without breaking the bank. I have looked at hardware stores but the shelving there wouldn't look too friendly in my kitchen :P

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Originally Posted by NH93

Thanks Jason!

It's going to be tricky, as I've only got one thermostat for each snake... therefore, I'll have to move the snakes into the new tanks on the same day I set them up (only having two I don't have a tonne of extra things lying around to keep them cozy during the process).

Are there any specific LED lights or other accessories you think would make it look awesome (and obviously be safe for the snakes)?
Also, any ideas where to get a stand for the PVC cage? I'm having trouble coming up with something that will look nice and go with the PVC, without breaking the bank. I have looked at hardware stores but the shelving there wouldn't look too friendly in my kitchen :P

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I don't know if this will be any help since I am in the US, but I use this little 13in LED bar for my corn snake enclosure which is PVC 3x2x2 feet and it lights it up perfectly, and it isn't super bright white lighting, it actually gives off a nice soft light in the cage

http://www.lowes.com/pd_406106-57299...Info=Utilitech

How much did that set you back?

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Originally Posted by NH93

How much did that set you back?

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Sorry are you asking about the LED strip?

Yes, sorry!

The strip itself was i think 25 bucks and then I bought a timer for it so probably around 35 dollars out the door. I went with the LEDs because I did't want a light to add any additional heat to the corns enclosure.

Perfect! I can't wait to set this thing up and post a couple photos.
:)

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Originally Posted by NH93

Perfect! I can't wait to set this thing up and post a couple photos.
:)

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I love seeing new enclosure pics!

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Originally Posted by NH93

Thanks Jason!

It's going to be tricky, as I've only got one thermostat for each snake... therefore, I'll have to move the snakes into the new tanks on the same day I set them up (only having two I don't have a tonne of extra things lying around to keep them cozy during the process).

Are there any specific LED lights or other accessories you think would make it look awesome (and obviously be safe for the snakes)?
Also, any ideas where to get a stand for the PVC cage? I'm having trouble coming up with something that will look nice and go with the PVC, without breaking the bank. I have looked at hardware stores but the shelving there wouldn't look too friendly in my kitchen :P

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I used to use a brand of led strip that was very I exspensive from lowes but it was discontinued. Really any led accent lighting will work though. Most can actually be attached fairly well just using hot glue.
As far as the stand goes if it was me I'd just build one. If that's not possible for you you'll just have to look around to find one that will work for you, ikea maybe?

Here it is:

I brought home and set up my new PVC cage today! It is a split 48"x24"x18", with hinged and locking Plexiglas doors. It is raised with 5 hockey pucks atop a black table from Ikea. The thermometer and hygrometer you see in the back of the photo are more for show, and only give a range (I have two probed thermometers for the UTH/thermostats and a handheld thermometer I trust more so).
It's difficult to see, but there is an LED light (the tape-style) in both sides, which can actually change colour on the entire rainbow spectrum. Also from Ikea.

The cage, LED lights, and table all together cost me $315 (tank at $240).

I am very pleased to have both my bedrooms back, and have the snakes out in the open - facing the living room - for everyone to see :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...22668675_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...05255675_n.jpg

On the left side is Sydney's vive (updated photo of her)
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...14352187_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...19339002_n.jpg

On the right side is Beau's vive (updated photo of him as well. You can see him laying on his new shed, too!)

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...40141584_n.jpg

Congrats! It looks awesome and I'm sure your snakes are loving it. Welcome to the PVC club. Lol.

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Looks great, awesome job setting it up! You are going to be very happy with the PVC setup!

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Originally Posted by NH93

Here it is:

I brought home and set up my new PVC cage today! It is a split 48"x24"x18", with hinged and locking Plexiglas doors. It is raised with 5 hockey pucks atop a black table from Ikea. The thermometer and hygrometer you see in the back of the photo are more for show, and only give a range (I have two probed thermometers for the UTH/thermostats and a handheld thermometer I trust more so).
It's difficult to see, but there is an LED light (the tape-style) in both sides, which can actually change colour on the entire rainbow spectrum. Also from Ikea.

The cage, LED lights, and table all together cost me $315 (tank at $240).

I am very pleased to have both my bedrooms back, and have the snakes out in the open - facing the living room - for everyone to see :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...22668675_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...05255675_n.jpg

On the left side is Sydney's vive (updated photo of her)
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...14352187_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...19339002_n.jpg

On the right side is Beau's vive (updated photo of him as well. You can see him laying on his new shed, too!)

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...40141584_n.jpg

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Leave it to a Canadian to use hockey pucks as part of his setup!

Looks great! I'm intrigued by the color changing lights. I might have to come up with a way to use those myself.

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Nice job decorating the cages.
If I can offer you one piece of advise it would be to go to a hardware store and by 4 like keyed cam locks and change out the ones that came with that cage. The keyless cams with just the thumb turns can be opened by the snake from the inside. I know this because I watched a boa of mine do it with her face while she was exploring her cage. It's probably not likely but it can happen. And if it does you could end up with a loose or injured snake on your hands. It's why I only use keyed locks, even though the keyless ones are a little easier to open the cage.

How big is each side? Is each side big enough to last them thru adulthood?

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A true Canadian, using hockey pucks as risers. It looks good though, I like how it turned out. :gj:

I like it. Looks good.

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

Nice job decorating the cages.
If I can offer you one piece of advise it would be to go to a hardware store and by 4 like keyed cam locks and change out the ones that came with that cage. The keyless cams with just the thumb turns can be opened by the snake from the inside. I know this because I watched a boa of mine do it with her face while she was exploring her cage. It's probably not likely but it can happen. And if it does you could end up with a loose or injured snake on your hands. It's why I only use keyed locks, even though the keyless ones are a little easier to open the cage.

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THERE ARE KEYS! ;) Don't worry, I had thought of that too. The right side (can't tell in the pictures) are locks, only openable by keys.

Thanks though!

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

Leave it to a Canadian to use hockey pucks as part of his setup!

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Thanks! I laughed so hard at this comment!

(His, or HER setup?)
;)

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Originally Posted by thejenius77

How big is each side? Is each side big enough to last them thru adulthood?

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The whole tank is 48Lx24Dx18H. There is a divider in the middle, so each side is 24x24(x18). I am not sure what this equals out to in gallons or litres...
This will definitely be large enough for the corn for the remainder of her life - she`s almost full grown as it is. I am hoping it will be large enough for the ball python as well. He was in a 15gal previous, which was 24x12x12, so he`s got literally double the floor space.

It all depends how large he gets. If he`s on the small end for BPs, say around 3-4ft, I think this would do nicely for his adult life.
Only time will tell!

And if it is too small, well... I`ll just get another tank for him and find an occupant for his old pad ;)

That's a little under 45 gallons per side if my math serves me correctly.

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Originally Posted by GeekAndDestroy

That's a little under 45 gallons per side if my math serves me correctly.

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I was thinking closer to 30 a piece, but either way I'm happy! Thanks for doing the math eh :)

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Originally Posted by NH93

THERE ARE KEYS! ;) Don't worry, I had thought of that too. The right side (can't tell in the pictures) are locks, only openable by keys.

Thanks though!

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The ones I was talking about were the thumb turn cams on the left. If one of those were opened even if the right side remains locked the snake will be able to bend the acrylic enough to squeeze through. Someone I know had this happen with a carpet python a few years ago. The snake pushed halfway out and got stuck. It then pulled back into the cage causeing a very nasty scrape down it's back from the acrylic. The only reason I suggested replacing all 4 locks was so they would all use the same keys. Again it's not likey, but it can/has happened. Better safe then sorry IMO.