need help...we're a mess

Okay, first post...

Brought home a BP last week and in hindsight we were massively under prepared for this. Doing everything we can to get him established and set up for health and long-term success. Can seem to get temps or humidity even close to where they should be and while our BP looks wonderfully healthy, but behavior seems a bit off.

Initial set up is as follows:

Glass enclosure w/ screen top, tapped on 3/4 to help with temps/humidity. Two hides, one on each side, one slightly larger over the UTH and a smaller one the cool side. Ceramic heating element and UTH on a rheostat but I am using a combination of stick on and dial thermometers to measure temps (wr actually have 6 in there now to measure the gradiant). Good news is we have a solid thermal gradiant from low 80s to mid 70s with a basking area close to 90 bad news is it's too cold. Haven't been able to measure temp in the hides. Coconut fiber substrate that we have sprayed down to get humidity up. One heavy multi limb branch and a water dish.

He is very active a couple of times a day and likes to go vertical (future escape artist on our hands if we're not careful). Will curl up in the warm hide or around the base of the branch and get into a tight spot along the edge of the tank. Was basking up in the branch when I checked on him this am. More active overnight and after anytime hands are in the tank and seems highly active for a BP. He hasn't eaten in 4 weeks, we will present again on Monday.

What I think I know...

I need to get temps up 5-10 degrees assuming thermometers are right.
I need to get digital thermometers and an actual thermostat instead of just a rheostat.
Need to maintain humidity instead of the high/low, high/low we are dealingnwith now.

Other than that, at a bit of a loss as to how to get him to settle in.

Any help/suggeations welcomed.

Cheers!

What are your temps and humidity at?


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Temps range from 84 warm end to 74 cool end assuming thermometers are accurate. I know I need to get this up about 10 degrees on each end. That said, he doesn't seem to be sticking to the hot spots and doesn't seem to avoind the cool end. Humidity is in the 40-50% range until we mist thwn stays in the 60-70% range for about a day before dropping back off.

Before doing anything, I'd suggest running out and getting the digital thermometer/hygrometer. I tried a combo dial, and soon found out that the humidity accuracy was off by 30%, and my efforts to get the humidity to appropriate levels was actually putting the cage at nearly 100% humidity. The thermometer was also off by 10 degrees.

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Originally Posted by dapp

Temps range from 84 warm end to 74 cool end assuming thermometers are accurate. I know I need to get this up about 10 degrees on each end. That said, he doesn't seem to be sticking to the hot spots and doesn't seem to avoind the cool end. Humidity is in the 40-50% range until we mist thwn stays in the 60-70% range for about a day before dropping back off.

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What size is your enclosure and what wattage of heat emitter are you using? I went through all the same problems with mine a while back.


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As long as your gradient stays in the mid 80's you should be fine with a warm spot around 90.

I also use coconut bark and to keep the humidity up, I mist every morning before work, and every night right before his day light turns off at about 6pm. He always comes out as soon as his light turns off and absolutely hates to get wet...so I avoid misting while he's out snaking around. I also keep the entire screen at the top covered with a towel except for the area where his lights/che are to allow air flow (and avoid fire).

A few words of advice: Try a larger (not deeper!) water dish so more can evaporate into the air; Try regular misting with a water bottle. Again my snake hates getting wet so try not to spray your critter directly in case they feel the same; A humidifier in the room might go a long way; If you just can't manage to get consistent humidity, which is difficult with taller glass tanks, try an animal fogger.

First off, glad to see you are asking questions. That shows you care which is a great start! Don't beat yourself up!

You just brought him home last week. It could very well take a while for him to get settled into new surroundings.

A couple things to consider - You are using an UTH and a ceramic heater? With dial type gauges? Dial gauges are notorious for reading way off of actual temps. Sounds to me that he is likely overheated and is trying to escape the heat with no place to go. Ball pythons typically don't bask in a branch. They stay on the ground. I would ditch the ceramic heater! All I use is UTH's for all of my balls and they do fine.. Six thermometers is unnecessary. All you need is a good thermometer with a wired probe. Put the probe over the UTH and under the warm hide and the main part of the unit on the opposite side.

You said he is cold. He could be going to the coldest part of the enclosure to get away from the heat. Remember, your body is 98.6 degrees so it's not unusual for him to feel cold to the touch. As long as you get your temps regulated accurately don't worry about if he is "cold". Plus, once he finds his way around the tank he will self-regulate his body temps.

I wouldn't bump up his temps at all. What you are telling us, if proven to be accurate with a digital thermometer is good. Another ten degrees would put his warm spot at 100 degrees. Way to high in my opinion.

It's not so important to maintain a particular humidity level, as it is OK to allow some variances. Try to keep it between 50- 60% while bumping it up to 70% or so when a shed is approaching. Misting once a week or so with Coconut husks should be good for holding humidity. You didn't mention having a hygrometer to measure the humidity.

What are you attempting to feed him (mouse/rat - frozen/thawed), and also how much does he weigh? Do you have a digital scale that measures in grams? That would be helpful in following the growth of your snake, as well as making sure it is getting properly sized meals.

You said you taped 3/4's of the screen top. With what? Glass tanks are difficult to maintain temps and humidity in.

Sorry for all the questions! Just trying to get a handle on your set up so we can help you. Don't take anything as criticism.

Lastly, check out some of the Ball Python Care sheets found on this forum and on the web if you haven't already done so. Good information.

Good luck and keep posting updates!

Wow! Thanks for all of the counsel and support!

Our house is notoriously cold...probably runs about 68 degrees in the room the BP is housed in which makes a UTH alone pretty tough. Tried the first few nights (when we were using a basking light in the day) with the UTH only and temps were running 78 -> 70 hot to cold. Again, if the thermometers are off, maybe this is okay.

I get that 6 thermometers are overkill and not necessary, but without a digi and probe, wanted to make sure there was a good heat curve throughout the enclosure.

He has spent zero tim in the "cool" hide or balled up on the cool side so I assumed he wasn't overheating. Just walked in and he is back up at the top of the branch again. The branch is not directly under the overhead heat source, but he still probably get some basking benefit there and with heat rising, ambient should be highest up but I'd think the UTH under the hide is the warmest spot in the enclosure.

Top was foiled and duct taped (tape on outside only). Open screen right now to see what happens with heat and whether he backs down off the branch.

We do have a digital scale that measures in grams (oldest sonnis T1D so we weigh everything). Haven't weighed him yet, but will. He is still a juvenile and is (or at least was) feeding on frozen thawed pinkies. He could probably be in fuzzies at this point, but I want to see him eat first.

We have a dial hygrometer which may be about as useful as the themometers but its what have right now. Will upgrade that too.

Enclosure is a 20 gallon (30" wide 12" deep 12" high).

Keep the coaching coming! Thanks!

If you are struggling with humidity, as a last attempt at keeping mine consistent I moved her water bowl to over my uth and it helped a lot. As far as heat maybe you just need a higher wattage bulb? It sounds like you are on top of it which is great!


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Pinkies are way too small for even a hatchling ball, I would moved him up sooner than later. Hatchings start off on mouse hoppers or rat pups.
I would get a digital thermometer with a probe asap so you know the correct temps.
And yes if your house is 68, you will need your che to keep the ambients up. As long as your hotspot is 90 ambients of 86-75 is fine

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Go to Walmart and get yourself one of these. It will tell you your hot side, cold side, as well as humidity.

http://mobile.walmart.com/m/phoenix#...47?type=search

Your uth alone won't be enough for proper temps, especially with a cold house. I would not get rid of the ceramic heater. If its not getting warm enough, get a bigger CHE. I would get a thermostat to run them both though. That will save you a lot of time trying to adjust, as well as make sure it doesn't get to hot and burn your snake. I use herpstat thermostats from Spyder robotics. There is also the Vivarium from Reptile Basics. Or a cheap temporary option is the hydrofarm.

There are several things you can do to help humidity. Larger water dish, under the lamp or over the uth. Frequent misting. Damp towel over 2/3 of the top. Build a cover for 2/3 of the top.

Are the hides snug? Balls prefer tight/small hides. If your hides are big, you can put some crinkled newspaper in them. Typically the saying is a hiding ball is a happy ball. So if he is roaming, excessively, he still needs to settle in and get comfortable. I would get all your temps and humidity dialed in, then leave him alone for a week. No handling, no hands in the tank, no rearranging anything. Then try to offer food. Give him time to settle in.

Good stuff...

Will make the adjustments, monitor for a few days and come back with updates.

BP.net is an awesome community! Thanks for all of the support and encouragement!

Have made zero progress on humidity. Running around 40-45% except after mist and it gets back that low within a few hours. After attempting to feed last night, I misted 8 full oz into the tank and it was 40% again this am. I think I am going to have to add a humidifier to the room to get it where we need it to be until we get a better enclosure unless I fully soak the coconut fiber which may be what I am supposed to do.

Temps seem a bit better albeit still a bit cool on the reading. Didgital thermometer shows 84 -> 76, hot -> cool side with the probe (inside the warm hide showing 88). Our BP has found the cool hide and has been there the past 1.5 days after basking in the tree and in and around his hide for the 2-3 days prior.

Still refused food (f/t fuzzy) last night but seemed MUCH more curious about it. He spent about 10 min checking it out with its tounge before moving on. We may try live next week if we can find a live fuzzy or hopper (anything bigger I think is too big right now). I tried feeding a bit later - 8:00pm and had to pull the cool hide out to get him going. May try to pull the hide ealier next time or wait until he is out and about on his own although that has been happening much later in the night to early morning.

He has settled down a bit and is spending more time doing nothing which I actually think is a good sign.

We'll try to feed again next Monday and will montior temps and humidity until then.

Questions...

I am planning on adding a Herpstat II asaf but until then, I have the UTH and the ceramic heater on a rheostat. To keep ambient temps up, I have it on medium high but am concerned about the UTH possibly burning the BP if he burrows down or moves the substrate. It is under the tank on the outside of the glass with about 1/2" of clearance below the tank for airflow. I have a solid inch, maybe more of coconut fiber in the enclosure. How much risk is there of a burn is this case? It feels hot to the touch with my hand on the glass but doesn't burn me. That said, I'm not the snake and don't have my hand on it for more than 30 seconds or so. I want to minimize risk here while making sure I am providing a warm enough hide. I am probably still a few weeks out from the herpstat II.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dapp

Still refused food (f/t fuzzy) last night but seemed MUCH more curious about it. He spent about 10 min checking it out with its tounge before moving on. We may try live next week if we can find a live fuzzy or hopper (anything bigger I think is too big right now). I tried feeding a bit later - 8:00pm and had to pull the cool hide out to get him going. May try to pull the hide ealier next time or wait until he is out and about on his own although that has been happening much later in the night to early morning.

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Try leaving his hides in. Some of them like eating in/from their hides. I have a couple who poke their heads out of their hides, grab the food, and drag it back in most of the time.

How much does your snake weigh? Is that a f/t fuzzy mouse or fuzzy rat? If it's a mouse, it's almost definitely too small. A mouse fuzzy will be too small for anything but the smallest of hatchlings. If you don't have a scale to weigh the snake or the food, eyeball it. The food should be about as wide as the snake is at it's widest point. The neck in particular will look too small, but if it can fit in the widest part of the body, it'll fit through the relatively small head and narrow neck. If you're unsure, get weights of both the snake and the food in grams. Weights make it easy to tell if the food is correct sized or not.

If he doesn't take F/T you may need to do a couple of live feedings to kickstart his feeding drive.

Before I got a PVC enclosure I had a tank, and one that was rather large. I used the coconut substrate and it had to be soaked in water and then squeezed out well before use. I also used a damp towel on top of the cage, and that's what really did the trick for me. I used a thick beach towel, folded. I wet the entire thing, and then wrung out the water, folded it into fourths and put it on top of 2/3 of the cage. Every night and a.m. I would flip and refold the towel, rewetting it as needed and washing it about every 4 days. That, along with misting twice a day, got my humidity into the right place. It also led me to place an order for the Animal Plastics T8 as it was a constant dance and worry to keep it just right in the tank.

I can't help on your main question, but hope that this saves you the expense of buying a humidifier. I live in the desert with very low humidity, and this worked for me. Hope it helps.


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So came home today to findnhim still on the cold side with a report that he had ventured into the warm hide for just a bit presumably to warm up. Open to the warm hide is 90 degress and the back corner, 97 so its probably a bit too warm. It's also still a bit to big so we are going to lay some flat rocks in there to tighten thing up a bit. Ambitent temos range from 82-> 76. Humidity at 40 :-(

Plan of attack is as follows:

1) Det up a second digi thermometer and probe on the cool side (probe inside cool hide) and be able to monitor cool temps constantly as well.

2) Pull the ceramic off the rheostat and turn down the UTH a bit to cool the hide a bit. The hide is directly under the ceramic heater so it's tough to tell how much of the heat is being sucked up from above vs below. It's a clay hide.and probably holds a lot of heat. The probe is stuck on the back inside at ground level. Not sure where else to out it.

3) Add the flat rocks to tighten up the warm hide and hopefully absorb a bit if the heat (should prevent him from ever getting to the glass and burning too).

4) Increase the size of the water dish andneither soak the substrate or add some moss to try to get the humidity levels up.

Let me knownif this sounds about right or I'm missing something.

Thanks!

I would put your ceramic off the side but not directly in the middle if that makes sense :)
I wouldn't turn down the uth.. I think the che is what was making it 97. If your che is on a rheostat turn it down and move so it is off the uth area but not all the way to the center.

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I think we,ve got it! Assuming the Acu-Rites are well, accurate, then I think we've settled into a setup that will carry us through winter or until we set up a pvc enclosure.

We've got 2 acu-rites set up one each side with the probes in each hide. UTH and 100wt ceramic heat on the warm side supplementes by a 75wt infrared on the cool side (daytime only). The infrared and UTH both on med. Seemsblike a litnof heat for this enclosure but temps look good.


Temp ranges:

Warm side (day)
Hide 88°-93°
Ambient 81°-85°

Warm side (night)
Hide 88°-93°
Ambient 81°-85°

Cool side (day)
Hide 71°-73°
Ambient 77°-80°

Cool side (night)
Hide 69°-71°
Ambient 73°-75°


Temps fluctuate a couple of degrees based in house temps and heat running/not running plus pre/post misting.

Humidity still too low but we were able to hold in the 40s and 50s for most of the day after getting the substrate damp. It will no doubt drynout again today but we are going to be experimenting with a humidifier in the room.

Thanks to the community for all the guidance and help getting us squared away. Will be aure to get some pics up soon and keep you posted on our progress.

50% in a glass aquarium is about as good as I was able to get it before I went tub. Just know that if you add a humidifier, it will lower you ambient temps a couple degrees as it cools the air out.

Honestly I just left it at 50% with 2 times a day misting and when it got closer to shedding time, I'd throw in a wet hide. Just soak some moss or paper towel and throw it into a cheap Tupperware and cut a hole in the Tupperware. It worked pretty well and they almost always pooped into it as well which made clean up a breeze.

Just my experience which really isn't a lot but it did help.

Goodluck

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tbh i use an infra red thermometer to set any tank and vivarium or tub up,never used thermostats or trust them.
i don't know the difference between europe and where you are ,but i for one know glass tanks do not hold heat well(whether this is supplemental to an already hot climate i don't know)
also don't panic about not eating i have had several snakes from reliable breeders on a high feeding schedule stop feeding for 6-12 week ,sometimes it takes them time to settle
good luck with him