Exploring

Fresh bedding is always fun! http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/20/u2a6u2yr.jpg


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Do you normally keep your snakes together?

At that size, yes.


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And why is that

Why not? I have been told that this is ok. They eat well, they thermoregulate, they act just like the snakes that are by themselves. Eventually they will be separate.


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Do they not compete for the best hide/hotspot? Do you feed them together in there? Or move them to feed? Which can be stressful for them. Are they both the same sex? Or are you prepared for a clutch if they lock up? While it can be done, it is not typically recommended to house balls together...

Its stressful on the snakes. Also if one gets sick it would be hard to tell from poo and urate because you will not know which snake it comes from. Almost all snakes are solitary animals and dont enjoy company

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Stool gets tested, and how would I tell if they are stressed? They eat, they have normal stool, etc.


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Originally Posted by Jackie

Stool gets tested, and how would I tell if they are stressed? They eat, they have normal stool, etc.


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Roaming is typically a sign of stress. So them up roaming rather than hiding would indicate stress. Hiding balls=happy balls.

Also, how would you know who's stool is which if you ever had a problem? You wouldn't.

I had just changed their bedding and hides around. I change bedding monthly, and my other snakes who are kept by themselves roam as well when their bedding is changed out.


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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Roaming is typically a sign of stress. So them up roaming rather than hiding would indicate stress. Hiding balls=happy balls.

Also, how would you know who's stool is which if you ever had a problem? You wouldn't.

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If one stool had a problem, both snakes would be treated.


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Not to say I don't appreciate the advice. Like I said, I've been told this is ok!


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Ok vs. optimal living conditions. Personally I would never house my balls together except for breeding.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Ok vs. optimal living conditions. Personally I would never house my balls together except for breeding.

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I joined this forum to seek advice. You have yet to tell me what's NOT optimal about how I keep my snakes. They hide out in the day, eat good, thermoregulate, they have a 10-12 hour day/night cycle light, I make sure their humidity is how it should be, and they WILL be separated when older.


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Well, Imo their own enclosure and hides would be optimal. They are your snakes, keep them how you like. I'm just saying the majority of ball keepers do not house them together, nor "recommend" it.

IMO, there's no reason why two snakes should be in one enclosure unless it's breeding time.

There are WAY too many cons to outweigh the pros.

Cons:
-One gets sick, so does the other
-Which one got sick?
-Stress for no reason
-Accidental breeding
-Cannibalism

Pros:
-Only one enclosure
- ??

Damn people get off his case each there own.

Good looking BPs and like the skull in the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

IMO, there's no reason why two snakes should be in one enclosure unless it's breeding time.

There are WAY too many cons to outweigh the pros.

Cons:
-One gets sick, so does the other
-Which one got sick?
-Stress for no reason
-Accidental breeding
-Cannibalism

Pros:
-Only one enclosure
- ??

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For your cons:
Most rack systems- one gets sick, the rest will, too. Also, what reason would one get sick if the husbandry is great?
Stress- where is the stress? They don't show signs of it.
No chance of accidental breeding.
They are fed well, there's no cannibalism, they are also around the same size.


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Originally Posted by Jackie

I joined this forum to seek advice. You have yet to tell me what's NOT optimal about how I keep my snakes. They hide out in the day, eat good, thermoregulate, they have a 10-12 hour day/night cycle light, I make sure their humidity is how it should be, and they WILL be separated when older.


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Actually, I did. Keeping them housed together is not optimal, imo.

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Originally Posted by Spencer88

Damn people get off his case each there own.

Good looking BPs and like the skull in the enclosure.

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I also said, keep them how you like. They are yours. However, everybody has opinions, you know what they are like...

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

IMO, there's no reason why two snakes should be in one enclosure unless it's breeding time.

There are WAY too many cons to outweigh the pros.

Cons:
-One gets sick, so does the other
-Which one got sick?
-Stress for no reason
-Accidental breeding
-Cannibalism

Pros:
-Only one enclosure
- ??

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Beat me to it. I don't know of any real reason to house most species of snakes together. The only reasons I can think of are at the benefit of the owner, NOT the animal. OP, I'm just wondering, what are your reasons for housing together, other than just being told it's "ok"?

Also, keep in mind that just because you haven't had an issue yet doesn't mean it's safe. I've personally seen snakes that were bitten by their cagemates in a mistaken feeding response. I don't know about racks, I don't intend on ever using them, but I also know of snakes that have both gotten sick while being caged together.

They are very pretty snakes though, and I do like your picture. I hope for their benefit you get them into their own cages. No one is trying to be mean, they just want the best for your snakes :)

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Originally Posted by Shann

Beat me to it. I don't know of any real reason to house most species of snakes together. The only reasons I can think of are at the benefit of the owner, NOT the animal. OP, I'm just wondering, what are your reasons for housing together, other than just being told it's "ok"?

Also, keep in mind that just because you haven't had an issue yet doesn't mean it's safe. I've personally seen snakes that were bitten by their cagemates in a mistaken feeding response. I don't know about racks, I don't intend on ever using them, but I also know of snakes that have both gotten sick while being caged together.

They are very pretty snakes though, and I do like your picture. I hope for their benefit you get them into their own cages. No one is trying to be mean, they just want the best for your snakes :)

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If you read my earlier response you would see where I had said multiple times this is temporary and they will be housed separately eventually. They get fed in a separate enclosure, by saying I was told it was "ok" I did not mean I was ever told it was sub-par. If this was the case, they would have already been separate. I was told it was ok, meaning it SHOULDN'T cause a problem.


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They are pretty. And unfortunately most people on here keep their snakes separate, so that's what you will hear. I definitely agree with keeping them separate. It's easier on both human and snake.

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Originally Posted by Jackie

For your cons:
Most rack systems- one gets sick, the rest will, too. Also, what reason would one get sick if the husbandry is great?
Stress- where is the stress? They don't show signs of it.
No chance of accidental breeding.
They are fed well, there's no cannibalism, they are also around the same size.


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Just my two cents...

Getting sick in racks:
If kept in a rack system they don't all get sick. If mites get brought in yes, but RIs and such, they need to come in physical contact with one another, or contaminated supplies.

Stress:
They do stress from being with other snakes. Not all will get stressed, or show signs, but it's certainly common. The most common sign of stress is skipping meals or roaming the enclosure.

Accidental breeding:
That can definitely happen. Even if you 'know' what sex each is, the breeder could have been mistaken, happens all the time.

Cannibalism:
Not common, but a possibility, even if well fed. They could come in contact while in feeding mode, or smell rodents, strike and coil the other. I highly doubt this scenario, but it has happened.

I keep a pair of mine in the same tank as well and I've never had any issues. Unless you guys have personal experience in keeping two BPs together, I don't know where you're getting all these opinions from. The OP is not endangering her snakes and from what she said, they seem to be thriving. Just because you don't agree with what she's doing, doesn't mean she's doing anything reckless or wrong so please stop acting like it.

I agree that when you keep two animals together you have to pay more attention to them. I also perfectly understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when your argument is: "what if your snakes get sick", then I'd say you're not as good of a keeper as you thought you were.

One more thing, and correct me if I'm wrong on this. Snakes DO come out and roam their tank. For example, all 4 of my snakes come out in the evening to roam for a bit. This doesn't mean they're stressed. Now if they're out excessively, there might be something wrong. There seems to be a stigma that if you see your BP out, there's something wrong. That's not always the case. Sometimes they explore just because they can. Just saying...


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Originally Posted by Misha

I keep a pair of mine in the same tank as well and I've never had any issues. Unless you guys have personal experience in keeping two BPs together, I don't know where you're getting all these opinions from. The OP is not endangering her snakes and from what she said, they seem to be thriving. Just because you don't agree with what she's doing, doesn't mean she's doing anything reckless or wrong so please stop acting like it.

I agree that when you keep two animals together you have to pay more attention to them. I also perfectly understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when your argument is: "what if your snakes get sick", then I'd say you're not as good of a keeper as you thought you were.

One more thing, and correct me if I'm wrong on this. Snakes DO come out and roam their tank. For example, all 4 of my snakes come out in the evening to roam for a bit. This doesn't mean they're stressed. Now if they're out excessively, there might be something wrong. There seems to be a stigma that if you see your BP out, there's something wrong. That's not always the case. Sometimes they explore just because they can. Just saying...


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I asked you before on the last thread this came up in, but I didn't notice if you replied, so I'll just ask again here, lol. I really am curious, not attacking you, but what are the benefits to the animal? I just can't see any way it benefits the snakes, and lots of ways it benefits the owner. I really do just want to hear your side of it.

Without any reason why it's good for the snake, I maintain that best practice is keeping them separate. Why risk it? What are the pros when there is a risk of something going wrong?

Also, you're correct, I haven't kept two snakes together, BUT I have seen first hand the results of snakes that were bitten by their cagemate.

I had a friend who kept a pair of normals in the same tank. His husbandry was top notch and he spot cleaned daily with a full cleaning once a week. So long story short one snake got sick no idea what it was but a week later both where dead he was waiting for pay day to take them to a vet and they didnt last that long

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Originally Posted by Misha

Unless you guys have personal experience in keeping two BPs together, I don't know where you're getting all these opinions from.


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Because we have spent years reading, listening, and helping other people with their snakes. Maybe some of us have kept two snakes together, maybe we have experience because we breed and our snakes live together for short periods of time ???

Snakes getting sick is not always because of bad husbandry. RIs are easy to get when you are keeping two snakes together, whether breeding or cohabitation. That's not poor husbandry, that's a risk you take when you stress these snakes. Breeders know and take the risk of RIs every breeding season.

Can you keep snakes together, yes. Do I think it's a good idea, no.

You can do as you please, just realize that we all dedicate a good chunk of our lives listening, learning, and teaching via sites like this one. I learn new things every day, including things that I'm doing wrong. When I hear/read that my way isn't ideal I take it on the chin, rethink my ways, and make the necessary changes.

I do agree with most of the points given by the others in regard to housing multiple ball pythons together. I house my balls separately for most of those reasons and have done so since I started keeping snakes. And I have housed two females together just for observation and personal curiosity in the past. I willingly housed them together knowing the risks. They started as hatchlings and were together for almost a year before I ended the study. They were both great eaters. They didn't really roam. It did not benefit the snakes, only myself and it still wasn't easier to house them together. Its actually easier to house them on their own than together.......

As for getting sick even though husbandry is good: Easy answer. Stress lowers the immune system.

Reasons that have also persuaded me not to cohabit ball pythons in addition to what was said previously:
- Combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7A0LhtKJAY
- Cannibalism (graphic warning)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s67/Smugg_66/BP.jpg



However, with all that said, cohabitation is safely do-able within certain perimeters and a higher level of keeper experience where you can identify when a snake is sound or distressed. Saying its plain wrong to cohabit is incorrect. Just highly unrecommended for most.

Can it be done? Yes.
Should it be done? Maybe not for newbies.

And in regards to snakes in general, some species can and/or need to be housed together permanently/long term in order to breed.

So there are snakes that shouldn't, could, and have to be cohabited. Depends on the species, keeper, and set up.

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Originally Posted by Shann

I just can't see any way it benefits the snakes, and lots of ways it benefits the owner. I really do just want to hear your side of it.

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I don't think it's beneficial or determental to the snakes. Like I said before, I have four snakes. I keep two separately and two together. They all thrive the same. The whole point of my arguement is that it's not as horrible as people assume. It's like arguing feeding live vs f/t. It's a choice. Doesn't mean it's worse or better.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

Because we have spent years reading, listening, and helping other people with their snakes.

That's not poor husbandry, that's a risk you take when you stress these snakes. Breeders know and take the risk of RIs every breeding season.

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I'm not denying that you guys have experience with ball pythons but I feel like any time someone sees two ball pythons in a terrarium together, it starts a whole thread of how horrific it is to keep two snakes together.

Now in regards to stress, in my personal experience, my snakes aren't stressed by beeing kept together. I think that term gets trown around very loosely. With breeding, there are a lot more variables in play for the snakes to get sick. Plus I'd think that putting and taking out snakes out of each other's containers would stress them a lot more, than two snakes constantly living together.

I'm not trying to argue with you guys about this whole thing. At the end of the day I'm still going to keep on of my pairs together not because I'm stubborn and trying to prove my point, but because in my experience, they seem to thrive equally whether there's one snake in the terrarium or two.

In regards to combat, I keep a male and a female together. And cannibalism isn't a common occurrence. However, if I ever feel like what I'm doing is dangerous to my pets, I'll be the first one to admit so.

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Originally Posted by Misha

I keep a male and a female together.

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So do you have an incubator, and are you prepared for eggs?

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

So do you have an incubator, and are you prepared for eggs?

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I don't have an incubator but I have the means of purchasing one if I ever need one.

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Originally Posted by Misha

I don't have an incubator but I have the means of purchasing one if I ever need one.

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I wasn't asking wasn't if you had the money for an incubator, as much as are you prepared to have eggs and thus hatchlings. Which will have to be housed, cared for and fed until you can find them all homes.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

I wasn't asking wasn't if you had the money for an incubator, as much as are you prepared to have eggs and thus hatchlings. Which will have to be housed, cared for and fed until you can find them all homes.

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I actually want to breed for fun. So if I do get eggs, it would be a pretty great surprise. Plus, it takes two months for the eggs to hatch so I'll have time to figure all of that out. In regards to finding them a home, I have a reptile store where I bought 3 of my snakes and the owner would be happy to buy the hatchlings from me whenever I start breeding.

I understand your concerns but I'm fully aware of what can happen by keeping a pair together.

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