small head?

I got my female reduced pattern Mojave today, and she is gorgeous! And maybe it's me, but her head shape looks just a little off. She has a small head with a kind of narrow curved nose. Can this be normal or is there something wrong? I got her for breeding and I adore her, but is this a genetic flaw in any way? Here are a few crappy pics from my phone.
HTTP://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps2d78ffaf.jpg

HTTP://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...psad28b152.jpg
HTTP://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps3ffa9004.jpg

thats definitively strange.

edit: and i dont think you can know for sure if its maybe something genetic or influenced by genetics. i reckon there will be a risk that it is.

My initial suspicion is toward an incubation issue rather than a genetic one. If you get a chance (and she's willing) could you get a top down shot and an under the chin one?

It does look a little odd. I agree you need more pics.

Looks like a deformed head to me.

Is his lower jaw under-developed?

It looks to me that this baby has a really short nose, almost like a brachiacephalic dog (like a boxer, or English bulldog) or a mix. Sorry I have more experience with dogs. Yeah the head does look for shortened. Cute little thing none the less. Hope it doesn't cause any health issues. Does it eat ok?

Yeah I agree it looks off...can you post up the photo the breeder sent you again (that you posted a bit ago in another thread)?

I will try to post up more pics when I get off work. I emailed the breeder with my concerns and he does not think it is genetic and thinks she will grow out of it. He says she eats great and all of her phantom and mojo siblings are fine. He was very nice and said if I was not happy with her I could return her and he would refund my money. I am torn though. One because I am bummed. I spent so long looking for the right Mojave female. Another because I am scared to death of the hassle of shipping a snake back. I've never done it before. I also don't want to take the chance it is genetic. And what if her body grows but not her head? Will she be able to eat larger prey items? What would you do?

I can't see the pictures.

Odd...I hope she will be fine!

Make her a pet and get another mojave girl. She might out grow it and she might not. She's still adorable.

Okay, I'm going to try to get some more pics up here. First, here are the links the the pics the breeder had:
http://imageevent.com/shanekinneyrep...=0&w=4&s=0&z=2
http://imageevent.com/shanekinneyrep...=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

And here are a few more pics I took
Body shot http://s263.photobucket.com/user/lbe...ps6d1786e9.jpg

Under chin http://s263.photobucket.com/user/lbe...ps3338704a.jpg

http://s263.photobucket.com/user/lbe...pscfafb6cf.jpg

http://s263.photobucket.com/user/lbe...psb044e0a3.jpg

Sorry the only internet I have right now is on my phone and it will only let me do links. Hope this helps

It looks weird but I think its partly because its a fat snake.

I can't see the newer pictures..


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Oh man. The links work for me. ,:( I will see if I can redo them

I can see the pictures fine when I click the links. No advice, but her head does look a little odd.

I can see all the pictures. I see what you mean.
I think it's a combination of small head with eyes that are probably normal
sized but look too big because her head seems too small.
I hope you can follow my train of thought and it makes sense to you.

Question - Strange I know but, does she have a tongue? Do you see it flicker?

Yes, she flickers it

I'm trying to decide if I should return her or hope she either grows out of it or it isn't genetic. I was hoping someone had seen something like this before. It's going to be such a pain to return her.

One of my Pied girls went through a phase when her head was freakishly small compared to her body. She grew out of it and has since bred some wonderful babies. I hope it turns out for you too. IMHO I think she looks ok.

Huh, that's really interesting. I was looking at her pics when she was up for sale and kept thinking her eyes looked bulgy. But now I'm inclined to think her eyes are probably normal sized, it's the rest of the head that's a little small and oddly shaped. I still adore her pattern, though, and she's cute as a bug! What's not to love?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phantomtip

It looks to me that this baby has a really short nose, almost like a brachiacephalic dog (like a boxer, or English bulldog) or a mix. Sorry I have more experience with dogs. Yeah the head does look for shortened. Cute little thing none the less. Hope it doesn't cause any health issues. Does it eat ok?

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I agree.
But like most brachycephalic dogs, the only real issues are respiration problems. I know very little if snakes can get this disorder but I would look for and listen for any problems breathing. Any wheezing, yawning or a persistent elevated neck would be a concern.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piedplus

One of my Pied girls went through a phase when her head was freakishly small compared to her body. She grew out of it and has since bred some wonderful babies. I hope it turns out for you too. IMHO I think she looks ok.

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as i understand it, the head grows at a rather constant rate, while the body can grow faster or slower due to diet.

but i think its absolutely not the case here, its about proportions. not between head size and body size, but the proportions of the head itself.

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i had one realisation.... at first i thought that this one shouldnt be bred because of the risk that it may be genetic. but now some of the posts make me thing, if one were to intentionally try to line-breed ball pythons with short heads, that would be exactly what such a breeder would be looking for. maybe someone would breed this one precisely for the reason that there is a chance for it being genetic.

personally i dont like it in cats or dogs because i think messing with color and length of hair is fine, but messing with the actual body shape would go a bit too far. its a bit too freaky for me.

but its still interesting. not for me, but making the nose shorter and maybe even having the eyes look in a more forward direction would make the head look somewhat more human / less alien.

Something is tickling the back of my brain about BEL complex animals and bug eyes, but I can't recall what exactly. Just something about BEL related things, bug eyes, and then them usually growing out of it. It is the same animal in both sets of pics (he didn't pull a swap on you), but she does look different head and eye wise. I'm kind of wondering if she's just having some kind of lopsided growth spurts and going through a bit of ugly duckling head awkward phase.

I know super butters/leaders can have bug eyes. Thanks for all the replies. I may hang on to her and see how she grows . not sure.

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Her bottom jaw looks little. I have one like that. Gives her a muppet nose but she eats wonderfully.

Just thought I'd update on this girl. She is slamming live adult mice. Eats fine. I almost want to say the nose seems to be looking better as she grows. What do you think the chances of me selling this girl are? I didn't take the seller up on the offer to return her, but now I'm not 100% convinced I want to keep her to breed. She is really sweet though and would make a good pet either way.

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Well, if you're going to give an update, you should do it with a pic. :gj:
You see, we here at BP.net are addicted to pichurrs.

How long have you had her? Why not keep her as a pet if you like her but don't want to breed her.

How much? I would give her a great home. All my BPs are pets first and maybe breeders down the road a very long ways.

Sorry guys, here are as few pics :-) I am still on the fence about parting with her. It is a pain to get live mice for sure. Maybe she will eventually switch over.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/15/he6etuta.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/15/ne4ytyma.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/15/5y2uvane.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/15/aqybuzyq.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/15/u5eba6u2.jpg

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I have seen this a few times it has been caused by acouple of different things in my cases. First was incubation had one box that was getting cooler than others and later in the process it seems to have geeked out a couple that became keepers. Second is genetics or congential problems, if I remember right kindey problems can show up as "Little Head" why I don't know but it does. Lastly and more likely is "escapee nose" because they have no bones on the nose are of their skul it is soft, thus if a snake is constantly pushing on its tub with its nose or pushing on the shipping bag for hours on end it can "deform the nose. Think about calling asleep on something how the skin can keep the impresson for a long time, same thing. I'd give the animal one shed and see how it goes the pics the breeder sent looks like a normal head so I'm thinking this is just "escapee nose".

I've had her for a few months and she has shed. The seller said he noticed her head was a little small but he thinks she will grow out of it and that there were no incubation issues.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phantomtip

How much? I would give her a great home. All my BPs are pets first and maybe breeders down the road a very long ways.

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This is not the place, I would appreciate if you would take this to PM...thanks

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I have seen this from incubation issue in the past, what surprises me is that someone would sell this animal without full disclosure even after noticing the problem himself.

If you bought this animal for a specific purpose and you are not satisfied with the transaction because of the obvious issue the animal should be returned and it should be at the breeder's expense given the specific circumstances, or you could keep her as a pet but the breeder should still offer some type of compensation.

He did offer a refund if I wasn't happy with her, but to be honest I was scared to mess with shipping for the most part.

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I don't mind keeping her as a pet, but I paid $200 plus half of shipping :-( and I am afraid to breed her in case it is genetic.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by elbee

I don't mind keeping her as a pet, but I paid $200 plus half of shipping :-( and I am afraid to breed her in case it is genetic.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

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For $200 you would think you would have got a perfect snake.

Personally even if not genetic I don't breed animals with physical deformities, anything that has defects to me is pet material (which there is nothing wrong).

Anyway this is up to you it's your choice to make.


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She looks like her head is growing into her body. Kind of like puppies with really big feet lol. They just need time to grow some. IF she was mine I would keep her. She's getting gorgeous. It is completely up to you either way you go.

Updated pics. She is over 200g now and here are pics of her head. Is it me or is it looking more proportional? Not 100% but it seems better than before.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/08/8yvysase.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/08/amejunub.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/08/a8a2a5ah.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/08/ju5uqade.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/08/ugyhu6ej.jpg

She's very cute, but has a pretty apparent overbite or smaller lower jaw. The mouth line seems like it slightly curves downward more or less.

Cute snake though.