BP's eat and grow more than we thought?

So I had posted a topic on how big ball pythons get their first year and a couple of you mentioned yours getting 1000-1900 grams their first year. So this brings me to another thought:

As my response in my previous post, my black pastel eats 3-5 days and weighs 220 grams at 3 months old. He is eating every 3-5 days on large to extra large mice. Now, from observation, he probably could eat everyday to every other day just because thats how aggressively hungry he is. Best eater I ever had. Here's the thing, since no one knows really how much snakes eat in the wild, let alone BP's, how do we know we are feeding our snakes enough? wouldn't it make sense they need to grow fast in order to survive in the wild? Maybe reaching 1000+ grams is actually normal for their first year? I know BP's eat as much as they want so if mine accepts mice every 3 days, maybe thats actually not "unhealthy"? Now, when it comes to power feeding (forcing another rat/mouse in its mouth) does not count as this is NOT the way of nature and is horribly dangerous (I don't agree with it). But feeding them as often as they want is not to be mistaken with power feeding because they snake knows how much they need in order to grow. Just some thoughts, let me now what you guys think!

In the wild they would have to spend a lot of time hunting. We in captivity most likely overfeed them quite a bit. They expend little to no energy hunting in their tubs and have food plopped in front of them. I personally would not feed more than every 5 days. I'm always afraid the snake will stop eating at any point and would rather them be hungry sometimes than full all of the time and that somehow lead to them refusing.

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Originally Posted by Flikky

In the wild they would have to spend a lot of time hunting. We in captivity most likely overfeed them quite a bit. They expend little to no energy hunting in their tubs and have food plopped in front of them. I personally would not feed more than every 5 days. I'm always afraid the snake will stop eating at any point and would rather them be hungry sometimes than full all of the time and that somehow lead to them refusing.

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I would definitely feed every 3 or 4 days as long as the snake is interested. I completely disagree with Flikky and firmly believe you can not over feed ball pythons, so long as they are voluntarily taking food. My snakes get up and moving quite a bit in the late evening, also. When they are hungry they definitely go "hunting" around the tub, sometimes looking for food for hours. And yes, I feel I can tell when they are acting hungry.

I have been thinking about this a bit myself. I have a 4.5 month old (~450g) pewter who is RAVENOUS at 3 days! She tears her enclosure apart like a drama queen having a fit LOL. I have been feeding her twice a week, so every 3 days, then 4 days, then 3 days etc. but when she has to wait 4 days she is out in full hunting mode the night before (making a huge mess), and will even strike the side of the enclosure if I get too close. Most people wouldn't feed a BP at that age and size every 3 days, but she clearly wants to be fed. I usually feed weaned rats (~40g), but this time she got a small (~60g). I'm hoping that will hold her a little longer LOL.

Happy I have a couple people who agree, Thanks for the comments guys!
STjepkes, thats what I was thinking, obviously they won't over eat and kill themselves lol.
Shera, I'm so happy I am not the only one experiencing this with my baby! My 3 month old Black pastel who is at 226g and is also aggressively hungry after 3 days. Never hesitant to strike at the first opportunity. He is taking large-XL mice with no problem. I'm surprised mine isn't bigger at the amount he has been eating haha.

Well, OK, now I can make my confession. We were underfeeding him due to a misunderstanding on my part of what the breeder told me. She had him on rats already when I bought him. I didn't understand that and was feeding him mice which were way undersized. I was also feeding him once every 7 days. As I learned more, about feeding, I started feeding him multiple mice then switched to larger rats. He's now eating one rat pup. Now here's the confession part. I don't feed him according to a schedule. I feed him according to his behavior. When he goes into hunting mode, he gets a rat the next day. Doing it this way, we end up feeding him every 3 or 4 days. There are exceptions. We had one refusal and then he didn't "hunt" again for a while after that so it was 8 days between meals with that incident. Right now, he's in deep blue and hasn't come out of his hide since his last feeding except to get a long drink of water every afternoon. It's been 7 days since he ate last so we're going to offer him a rat this evening when he emerges for his drink.

But for the most part, we're letting him tell us when he's hungry. Since we've been doing that, he's been gaining weight and length. He didn't shed from September, when we got him, until November. I think that's because we were underfeeding him. He's right now in the throes of his second shed. I think this is more normal too than when we were underfeeding the poor little guy.

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Originally Posted by Shera

I have been thinking about this a bit myself. I have a 4.5 month old (~450g) pewter who is RAVENOUS at 3 days! She tears her enclosure apart like a drama queen having a fit LOL. I have been feeding her twice a week, so every 3 days, then 4 days, then 3 days etc. but when she has to wait 4 days she is out in full hunting mode the night before (making a huge mess), and will even strike the side of the enclosure if I get too close. Most people wouldn't feed a BP at that age and size every 3 days, but she clearly wants to be fed. I usually feed weaned rats (~40g), but this time she got a small (~60g). I'm hoping that will hold her a little longer LOL.

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450 gram snake means 45-67.5 gram prey is the ballpark to shoot for for you. The small you have fits in nicely to that range(in a pinch 2 smaller items of the same approx total weight is good too). The increase in size will most likely be appreciated by your snake.
Good luck.
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And, with all due respect anyone telling people to overfeed snakes is just plain wrong. If you feed smaller meals every 3 days sure, you can do it but, why would you?
More small prey items and more frequent feedings will just cost you more in the long run. It doesn't seem to provide any benefit to the animals and, it is easier to over-feed and end up with an obese animal.

There is no such thing as being healthy and overweight for people so, it wouldn't be wise to assume it is any different with other species without scientific evidence to back it up. I do know that some species of snakes develop liver issues if overfed.
Trying different things is all well and good but, power-feeding has been tried and there are reasons why it is not recommended. If you don't mind spending more to get your snakes the same nutrition and spend way more time feeding them(what may have to be prey that is in reality too small for the animal to adequately stretch ligaments and help with proper skull/jaw/soft-tissue development), I suppose you could. You just won't be doing yourself or your snake any favours.

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Originally Posted by freedom21

Happy I have a couple people who agree, Thanks for the comments guys!
STjepkes, thats what I was thinking, obviously they won't over eat and kill themselves lol.
Shera, I'm so happy I am not the only one experiencing this with my baby! My 3 month old Black pastel who is at 226g and is also aggressively hungry after 3 days. Never hesitant to strike at the first opportunity. He is taking large-XL mice with no problem. I'm surprised mine isn't bigger at the amount he has been eating haha.

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Ya they will.
Just like a person eating McDonalds every day will considerably shorten their life-span.
There is a reason captive animal usually live much longer than wild counterparts that does not include predation. We as sentient beings with the tools to study these animals can give them an overall healthier life than they would have in the wild. Things like elimination of parasites, proper nutrition, all the things that go into good husbandry.
There are things we have to do that never happen in the wild. There is no one spot cleaning, changing substrate or filtering and purifying their water.

This is not a new or novel species where we need to try everything and figure out what works. If you are feeding the right size prey every 3 days for the size of snake you have for an extended period you will have a fat snake.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

And, with all due respect anyone telling people to overfeed snakes is just plain wrong. If you feed smaller meals every 3 days sure, you can do it but, why would you?
More small prey items and more frequent feedings will just cost you more in the long run. It doesn't seem to provide any benefit to the animals and, it is easier to over-feed and end up with an obese animal.

There is no such thing as being healthy and overweight for people so, it wouldn't be wise to assume it is any different with other species without scientific evidence to back it up. I do know that some species of snakes develop liver issues if overfed.
Trying different things is all well and good but, power-feeding has been tried and there are reasons why it is not recommended. If you don't mind spending more to get your snakes the same nutrition and spend way more time feeding them(what may have to be prey that is in reality too small for the animal to adequately stretch ligaments and help with proper skull/jaw/soft-tissue development), I suppose you could. You just won't be doing yourself or your snake any favours.

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Are you directing this at me? Because if you are you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, feeding them smaller items more often will literally allow your snake to grow to a healthy size more quickly. No, not just heavy, but literally longer, much faster. Power feeding is force feeding another animal, by putting into their mouth right as the first item is going down. NEVER did I condone doing this, so pay a little more attention to what you're accusing me of here.

I'm sorry that it sound like feeding is some big hassle to you, but that doesn't make feeding frequently wrong. If you think you can over feed ball pythons, I can be almost certain that you aren't speaking from experience, because this does not happen. I have never heard of a ball that voluntarily ate its way to a weigh that was impairing it's health in any way.

What I HAVE seen, many times now, is new people regurgitating information that they do not know to be fact at all, but they preach as law. I have also seen these people greatly underutilized the natural growing capacity of their young balls. If you're intending to breed, and talking about costs, having to wait at least 3-5 years when they have the potential to be there in 1.5-3 years is going to cost you a lot more money that just getting your snakes up to weight in the first place by offering them optimal food from the start. Obviously there are exceptions, though.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Ya they will.
Just like a person eating McDonalds every day will considerably shorten their life-span.
There is a reason captive animal usually live much longer than wild counterparts that does not include predation. We as sentient beings with the tools to study these animals can give them an overall healthier life than they would have in the wild. Things like elimination of parasites, proper nutrition, all the things that go into good husbandry.
There are things we have to do that never happen in the wild. There is no one spot cleaning, changing substrate or filtering and purifying their water.

This is not a new or novel species where we need to try everything and figure out what works. If you are feeding the right size prey every 3 days for the size of snake you have for an extended period you will have a fat snake.

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I understand your concern BUT I have to disagree to a degree. This is a baby ball python I am talking about, which means he is growing at a fast pace and since he is growing it makes sense that he is eager to eat 3-5 days. When is comes to adult snakes then I can understand feeding once a week or once a month. I have a 3 year old pastel male who eats once a month since he isn't going through a growth spurt and is at a healthy weight. I have an older female (5-6 years) who is eating once a week. All of my snakes know when they want to eat and when they don't want to eat. My pastel male went 6 months without eating and then BOOM he was eating like a pig for a few months and now is eating contently at once a month.
In the wild no one REALLY knows how much they eat. If you think about it, tons of different food sources are available to them everyday and a growing baby needs to eat in order to grow. So to conclude, I think fast growing baby snakes should eat as often as want as long as they will take it eagerly. And adults don't need to eat as often because they are pretty much done growing.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Ya they will.
Just like a person eating McDonalds every day will considerably shorten their life-span.
There is a reason captive animal usually live much longer than wild counterparts that does not include predation. We as sentient beings with the tools to study these animals can give them an overall healthier life than they would have in the wild. Things like elimination of parasites, proper nutrition, all the things that go into good husbandry.
There are things we have to do that never happen in the wild. There is no one spot cleaning, changing substrate or filtering and purifying their water.

This is not a new or novel species where we need to try everything and figure out what works. If you are feeding the right size prey every 3 days for the size of snake you have for an extended period you will have a fat snake.

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IF you knew anything about raising these animals with their full potential, you'd know that eventually, the snake will stop being interested every 3 days, 4 days, 5 days, as they grow, until they aren't really interested in food more than once a week usually - an exception being putting weight on back on females after eggs.

This second post you made is just downright ignorant.

1. You're claiming that these snakes will literally KILL THEMSELVES by making the choice to over eat? Do you even own a ball python? Show me 1 well documented instance of this, please, show me.

2. Comparing essentially the most natural diet a python could possibly have, with the horror of the "food" they sell at McDonalds is absolutely ludicrous. Do you understand to any degree what homo sapiens are supposed to be eating? McDonald's is not food. Not real food. Human beings were never designed to be eating the things they sell at these restaurants.

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

Are you directing this at me? Because if you are you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, feeding them smaller items more often will literally allow your snake to grow to a healthy size more quickly. No, not just heavy, but literally longer, much faster. Power feeding is force feeding another animal, by putting into their mouth right as the first item is going down. NEVER did I condone doing this, so pay a little more attention to what you're accusing me of here.

I'm sorry that it sound like feeding is some big hassle to you, but that doesn't make feeding frequently wrong. If you think you can over feed ball pythons, I can be almost certain that you aren't speaking from experience, because this does not happen. I have never heard of a ball that voluntarily ate its way to a weigh that was impairing it's health in any way.

What I HAVE seen, many times now, is new people regurgitating information that they do not know to be fact at all, but they preach as law. I have also seen these people greatly underutilized the natural growing capacity of their young balls. If you're intending to breed, and talking about costs, having to wait at least 3-5 years when they have the potential to be there in 1.5-3 years is going to cost you a lot more money that just getting your snakes up to weight in the first place by offering them optimal food from the start. Obviously there are exceptions, though.

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Someone is a little over sensitive.
No it wasn't directed at you and if you have seen enough rescues then you would know that BP's can over eat. Not all of them are finicky eaters( I know most of us have one or more snake where this was the issue we had to deal with rather than stubborn feeders).
My snakes are doing quite well at 15% body weight every 5 days until between 400-500 grams, then every 7 days the same 15%. One female attained 1100 grams in one year (granted she is the one that almost never skipped a meal, I'd have to check her feed records but, I believe it was only 2 skipped meals for her over a year). They are proportionally developed and not overweight or underweight.

As I said it CAN be done, but advising new snake keepers with no background in animal physiology to feed every 3 days is a tad irresponsible.
3 days would be more suited to an underweight juvenile as opposed to a healthy juvenile.

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

Are you directing this at me? Because if you are you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, feeding them smaller items more often will literally allow your snake to grow to a healthy size more quickly. No, not just heavy, but literally longer, much faster. Power feeding is force feeding another animal, by putting into their mouth right as the first item is going down. NEVER did I condone doing this, so pay a little more attention to what you're accusing me of here.

I'm sorry that it sound like feeding is some big hassle to you, but that doesn't make feeding frequently wrong. If you think you can over feed ball pythons, I can be almost certain that you aren't speaking from experience, because this does not happen. I have never heard of a ball that voluntarily ate its way to a weigh that was impairing it's health in any way.

What I HAVE seen, many times now, is new people regurgitating information that they do not know to be fact at all, but they preach as law. I have also seen these people greatly underutilized the natural growing capacity of their young balls. If you're intending to breed, and talking about costs, having to wait at least 3-5 years when they have the potential to be there in 1.5-3 years is going to cost you a lot more money that just getting your snakes up to weight in the first place by offering them optimal food from the start. Obviously there are exceptions, though.

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Well said! :gj: I agree completely. I think people are getting power feeding mixed up with hungry snakes willing to eat often. Here's the thing, if one is not willing to pay money to feed these fast growing babies then thats poor ownership. One can't slap a label on these animals and say they don't need to be fed as often as 3-5 days. Happy you understand!

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Someone is a little over sensitive.
No it wasn't directed at you and if you have seen enough rescues then you would know that BP's can over eat. Not all of them are finicky eaters( I know most of us have one or more snake where this was the issue we had to deal with rather than stubborn feeders).
My snakes are doing quite well at 15% body weight every 5 days until between 400-500 grams, then every 7 days the same 15%. One female attained 1100 grams in one year (granted she is the one that almost never skipped a meal, I'd have to check her feed records but, I believe it was only 2 skipped meals for her over a year). They are proportionally developed and not overweight or underweight.

As I said it CAN be done, but advising new snake keepers with no background in animal physiology to feed every 3 days is a tad irresponsible.
3 days would be more suited to an underweight juvenile as opposed to a healthy juvenile.

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Show me one single instance of this. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Someone is a little over sensitive.
No it wasn't directed at you and if you have seen enough rescues then you would know that BP's can over eat. Not all of them are finicky eaters( I know most of us have one or more snake where this was the issue we had to deal with rather than stubborn feeders).
My snakes are doing quite well at 15% body weight every 5 days until between 400-500 grams, then every 7 days the same 15%. One female attained 1100 grams in one year (granted she is the one that almost never skipped a meal, I'd have to check her feed records but, I believe it was only 2 skipped meals for her over a year). They are proportionally developed and not overweight or underweight.

As I said it CAN be done, but advising new snake keepers with no background in animal physiology to feed every 3 days is a tad irresponsible.
3 days would be more suited to an underweight juvenile as opposed to a healthy juvenile.

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Are you calling me irresponsible? I hope you know I am NOT new to keeping snakes or any reptile. I have many many many years under my belt. I AM a breeder. I'm purely saying that whose to say snakes can't eat every 3-5 days. If they are hungry they eat. simple and sweet. I've observed this on my own. I don't tell you how to raise your snakes, please don't tell me how to raise mine. One can't tell a growing baby snake in the wild not to eat often because it might get fat. As I said before, as the snake ages and slows its growth and becomes an adult they don't need/want to eat as often as they did as babies.

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

Show me one single instance of this. Seriously.

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Are you seriously saying you have never seen an overweight Ball Python? Not even one that wasn't force fed?
How long have you been around these animals again?
Come back to chat when you've done necropsies on animals and noticed larger than normal fat deposits and atypical organs (yes even in BP's although it does seem less frequent with this species than some others) One of the reasons BP's are decent starter snakes is precisely that they seem pretty forgiving of minor bad husbandry practices.
If your BP needs to be fed after 3 days, you are offering undersized prey.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

450 gram snake means 45-67.5 gram prey is the ballpark to shoot for for you. The small you have fits in nicely to that range(in a pinch 2 smaller items of the same approx total weight is good too). The increase in size will most likely be appreciated by your snake.
Good luck.
________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________

And, with all due respect anyone telling people to overfeed snakes is just plain wrong. If you feed smaller meals every 3 days sure, you can do it but, why would you?
More small prey items and more frequent feedings will just cost you more in the long run. It doesn't seem to provide any benefit to the animals and, it is easier to over-feed and end up with an obese animal.

There is no such thing as being healthy and overweight for people so, it wouldn't be wise to assume it is any different with other species without scientific evidence to back it up. I do know that some species of snakes develop liver issues if overfed.
Trying different things is all well and good but, power-feeding has been tried and there are reasons why it is not recommended. If you don't mind spending more to get your snakes the same nutrition and spend way more time feeding them(what may have to be prey that is in reality too small for the animal to adequately stretch ligaments and help with proper skull/jaw/soft-tissue development), I suppose you could. You just won't be doing yourself or your snake any favours.

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You clearly don't understand the 10-15% rule so don't recommend it. That whole rule was established ONLY for hatchlings and then people come and read it and just auto assume it is for everything. Several conditions can come into play with a snake being older. STOP recommending it if you don't understand it. Again, I'll state it was a rule established FOR HATCHLINGS.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Someone is a little over sensitive.
No it wasn't directed at you and if you have seen enough rescues then you would know that BP's can over eat. Not all of them are finicky eaters( I know most of us have one or more snake where this was the issue we had to deal with rather than stubborn feeders).
My snakes are doing quite well at 15% body weight every 5 days until between 400-500 grams, then every 7 days the same 15%. One female attained 1100 grams in one year (granted she is the one that almost never skipped a meal, I'd have to check her feed records but, I believe it was only 2 skipped meals for her over a year). They are proportionally developed and not overweight or underweight.

As I said it CAN be done, but advising new snake keepers with no background in animal physiology to feed every 3 days is a tad irresponsible.
3 days would be more suited to an underweight juvenile as opposed to a healthy juvenile.

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You recommending a rule that you don't understand like the body weight thing is irresponsible. That rule was created for hatchlings to help people determine food size. So unless the snake is a hatchling, stop recommending it.

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Originally Posted by freedom21

Are you calling me irresponsible? I hope you know I am NOT new to keeping snakes or any reptile. I have many many many years under my belt. I AM a breeder.

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Please do share what name you use as a breeder.

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Originally Posted by freedom21

I'm purely saying that whose to say snakes can't eat every 3-5 days. If they are hungry they eat. simple and sweet. I've observed this on my own.

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Where did I say you cannot feed more frequently? The only thing more astonishing that the butthurt here, is the lack of logical ability.
I stated that care needs to be take to not overfeed.

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Originally Posted by freedom21

I don't tell you how to raise your snakes, please don't tell me how to raise mine.

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And, where did I do that.
I told you, that if your snake needs to be fed every 3 days you are feeding prey that is too small. I stand by that and if you are the experienced breeder you claim to be then, you will have already found this yourself.[QUOTE=freedom21;2194529] One can't tell a growing baby snake in the wild not to eat often because it might get fat. As I said before, as the snake ages and slows its growth and becomes an adult they don't need/want to eat as often as they did as babies.

Which would be a contributing factor to captive animals living longer.
Wild snakes also go extended periods without any food which is why they are so willing to eat at almost any opportunity.

Babies eat more because of the predator law. Things bigger than you are potentially predators, so the bigger they get the better chance they stand of living versus being small and having more predators that can kill them.

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Originally Posted by freedom21

I understand your concern BUT I have to disagree to a degree. This is a baby ball python I am talking about, which means he is growing at a fast pace and since he is growing it makes sense that he is eager to eat 3-5 days. When is comes to adult snakes then I can understand feeding once a week or once a month. I have a 3 year old pastel male who eats once a month since he isn't going through a growth spurt and is at a healthy weight. I have an older female (5-6 years) who is eating once a week. All of my snakes know when they want to eat and when they don't want to eat. My pastel male went 6 months without eating and then BOOM he was eating like a pig for a few months and now is eating contently at once a month.
In the wild no one REALLY knows how much they eat. If you think about it, tons of different food sources are available to them everyday and a growing baby needs to eat in order to grow. So to conclude, I think fast growing baby snakes should eat as often as want as long as they will take it eagerly. And adults don't need to eat as often because they are pretty much done growing.

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That makes a bit more sense. I would be hesitant to suggest others start 3 day cycles without more information included as well though. i.e do you reduce prey size, what stage do you start lengthening the feeding cycle. etc.
I have heard pet store staff state explicitly that snakes cannot be over fed, my concern is for new keepers coming in and getting the idea that every 3 days and "normal" amounts is a good idea.
Thanks for clarifying that.
And, I will grant that at that stage of the life cycle they might possibly be more forgiving of the additional food.


And, yes I have a male that only takes 1 small every 2 weeks usually even though offered weekly and a female that hammers medium rats every week as if I hadn't fed her for a month(the rest are pretty much normal, 1 small a week not counting juveniles). There is a variation in individuals in the species. Personally, I have found 5-7(I do 5 on hatchlings 7 on larger juvies) days works for my juvenile BP's and hasn't ever been a problem. My boa on the other hand and, one of my carpets would eat daily if I let them

I'm no expert but virtually all animals are capable of eating their way into unhealthy obesity. Yes it is true that many snakes contain an enzyme that actually keeps them from getting heart disease due to the slow metabolism and sedentary lifestyles; snakes can still suffer from liver/kidney problems due to an excess of fats obtained from prey items.

Telling people that snakes will not eat to the point of excess, as if it is empirical truth is simply incorrect.

Snakes are not a new concept in the pet/commercial breeding trade, nor is the information on what is an acceptable diet. Feeding a snake daily is not a healthy approach. Are you aware that snakes have a gastrointestinal fauna that allows them to break down prey items? And that if this biological bacteria is taxed too greatly(feeding too frequently) that their systems will become far less efficient at nutrient uptake? Even to the point of malnourishment regardless of prey items consumed? Ever heard that when a snake regurges that it should be given a week before feeding again? That is to allow time for the bacteria/enzymes in the GI tract to reestablish and become capable of digestion.

Please do, when debating idea like this, come from a stance of curiosity, and not stating empirical fact. Some new people might read this thread and think they should feed their beeper everyday, and wonder why it mysteriously dies of liver failure.


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

I had a brain fart and forgot to ask if you tend to use mice rather than rats on this 3 day cycle. Comparable sized rats to mice for hatchlings would be liable to have a gut-load of milk, whereas the mice would be old enough to be weaned.

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Originally Posted by Neal

You clearly don't understand the 10-15% rule so don't recommend it. That whole rule was established ONLY for hatchlings and then people come and read it and just auto assume it is for everything. Several conditions can come into play with a snake being older. STOP recommending it if you don't understand it. Again, I'll state it was a rule established FOR HATCHLINGS.

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Well said, Neal.

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

I'm no expert but virtually all animals are capable of eating their way into unhealthy obesity. Yes it is true that many snakes contain an enzyme that actually keeps them from getting heart disease due to the slow metabolism and sedentary lifestyles; snakes can still suffer from liver/kidney problems due to an excess of fats obtained from prey items.

Telling people that snakes will not eat to the point of excess, as if it is empirical truth is simply incorrect.

Snakes are not a new concept in the pet/commercial breeding trade, nor is the information on what is an acceptable diet. Feeding a snake daily is not a healthy approach. Are you aware that snakes have a gastrointestinal fauna that allows them to break down prey items? And that if this biological bacteria is taxed too greatly(feeding too frequently) that their systems will become far less efficient at nutrient uptake? Even to the point of malnourishment regardless of prey items consumed? Ever heard that when a snake regurges that it should be given a week before feeding again? That is to allow time for the bacteria/enzymes in the GI tract to reestablish and become capable of digestion.

Please do, when debating idea like this, come from a stance of curiosity, and not stating empirical fact. Some new people might read this thread and think they should feed their beeper everyday, and wonder why it mysteriously dies of liver failure.


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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Getting tired of this thread so I'll keep it short...

When did anyone ever recommend feeding your snake daily? And we aren't talking about all snakes, we'r'e talking about a specific species that yes, does not have problems with obesity. If I was so wrong don't you think experienced people would have jumped in here by now to correct such a dangerous, and untrue piece of information? Hmm.....the reason I responded the way I did, is because from my experience and many more seasoned peoples experiences it basically is a fact. Though there are always exceptions to rules, however rare they may be.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eO8o9_rI15...he-popcorn.gif

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eO8o9_rI15...he-popcorn.gif

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Hahaha oh my god I love the Psych Reference so much! You are the best, Inarikins.

Well just because people do something without consequence doesn't make it fact. The truth of the matter is found in scientific evidence, not a hobbyist breeders experience.

The bottom line is, with irrefutable truth, you can overfeed a Ball Python, and they can become obese, as can virtually any animal in existence, sans maybe simple organisms that actually do not have digestive systems capable of doing such. Never have seen an obese amoeba.

And btw, look back at earlier posts and you will see the daily feeding reference. I wasn't making it up.


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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Originally Posted by freedom21

So I had posted a topic on how big ball pythons get their first year and a couple of you mentioned yours getting 1000-1900 grams their first year. So this brings me to another thought:

As my response in my previous post, my black pastel eats 3-5 days and weighs 220 grams at 3 months old. He is eating every 3-5 days on large to extra large mice. Now, from observation, he probably could eat everyday to every other day just because thats how aggressively hungry he is. Best eater I ever had. Here's the thing, since no one knows really how much snakes eat in the wild, let alone BP's, how do we know we are feeding our snakes enough? wouldn't it make sense they need to grow fast in order to survive in the wild?

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You can feed your hatchlings every 3 days if you want. Just have to slow it down as they get older. If your adult is hungry every 3 days, you are most likely feeding him/her too little.

They do need to grow fast in the wild when they're young. Some of them probably could eat every day when they're hatchlings. Most of them probably would be happy to, IMO. I don't think it's a matter of the snake knowing how much it needs to grow. Rather, I think it's a survival mechanism. Animals are built to survive the harshest of conditions, not just ideal conditions. In harsh conditions when you are small, you eat everything you can because you have no idea when the next meal is.

Being small puts you on everyone's menu. When you're on everyone's menu, chances are you will end up as someone's meal. To get bigger and off the menu, you need to eat.

The ones who are born with an innate drive to eat more frequently *WILL* eat more frequently...and thus grow faster giving them a better chance of survival. While they want to eat every day, in the wild odds are they are not eating daily. There will probably be periods of weeks or even months between meals, so if two mice pop in 24 hours apart, you better get them both while you have the chance, because the next meal could be in a month (or longer). If you're the picky wild ball python who eats one day then refuses a meal the next day when the opportunity arises, you're staying small and staying small means two things. First, you're still on the menu. You will be until you are bigger. Second, it means you're lacking the necessary fat reserves needed to survive the long food droughts that are bound to happen.

In your enclosure, with food coming regularly, you are removing the random access to food they experience in the wild, but you cannot remove the built in instinct they've developed over the course of millions of years of evolution. The built in survival mechanism in some of them to eat every chance they can when they're hatchlings is no longer needed in the glass aquarium or plastic tub. It doesn't need to eat every day because unless you're completely careless, the next meal is never 3 or 4 or 8 weeks out...it's in another 4 days or 5 days or 7 days and it's a fat, healthy, juicy rat/mouse/asf stuffed with fat and protein. It's never some scrawny, parasite ridden, diseased runt of a rat that it sees 7 weeks after it's last meal.

He doesn't know that, though, so he still thinks he needs to eat every chance he can. It's built in. Eat...eat everything you can...if it's small enough to eat, grab it, kill it, eat it. Doesn't matter if you just ate 30 mins ago. Get it.

But it doesn't make it healthy longterm. Yes, he can eat 2 days in a row sometimes. Probably 3 or 4 days. But again, what's needed in the harsh conditions these animals are built to survive in, might not be needed in the relatively ideal environment you've created in your little enclosure for him. Millions of snakes being fed every 7 days seems to indicate that that's a good amount for them.

I could be wrong. Who knows? Maybe all of our snakes are starving, but I can't imagine there's a lot of wild ball pythons with diets better than a fat healthy rat every 5 to 7 days.

Ball Pythons can get overweight. And I do agree with whoever said that keepers do tend to overfeed. And the most common reason is because they go off feed so often and want to pack on fast reserves to endure those fasts. Why are females so much *thicker* than males?? Fat. Fat to keep breeding females from getting their energy and resources sucked dry into producing eggs. But if a female is too fat, it often results in slugging out and poor reproduction.

BPs in the wild probably do not eat regularly and their prey certainly isn't big. An ASF never exceeds small Norway rat size and I see people offering large rats. And feeding 15-20% of an adults weight is ridiculously overkill. And I recall someone in another thread saying they feed 20% of their snakes weight no matter what the age. My hatchlings get rat fuzzies every 4-5 days. My 250g balls get rat pups every 4-5 days. My 500g balls get small rats once a week. My 1000g balls get small rats once a week. My 2000g balls get small rats once a week. That's all they need to achieve and maintain a healthy body condition.
Hatchling metabolism is faster because they use that energy to grow. Adult metabolism is slow because they are no longer growing at that rapid pace.

And people seem to try to grow out their hatchlings as fast as possible to breeding size. I can bet many females in the wild are not breeding till they are 4+ years old, while some breeders try to breed their girls as soon as possible, which could be as young as a year old.



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I also wanted to add that some of my non-breeders and strict pet adult ball pythons eat every 10-14 days(but usually just 14 days) and still look great, have good body condition, and lovely muscle tone.

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Babies get an appropriate sized meal every three days until 500g here. At approximately this time, maybe a little sooner, they move up to small rats and go to a five day schedule.

When they break 1000g they go on a seven day. I haven't had to increase my days outside of that, because no snake in my possession has broken 1400g (1382g is my largest).

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

Well said, Neal.

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Thanks. I just hate seeing when people always recommend it for everything. I just want to grab them through the screen by the throat and backhand them.

When you start recommending that for colubrids and other stuff you'll start running into major issues. Also if the BP has been underfed for awhile and it has the weight but not the size. Just so many things go into play and it's frustrating when just you see everybody, oh 10-15%. A hatchling BP gets a rat fuzzy the first feeding, then 2 rat fuzzies if it will eat, then after that it's on rat pups. At high 300 grams(usually) they're on weaned rats. Then at 500 they go to small rats.

My bigger girl can and will gladly eat whenever I put a rodent in her tank (except she won't touch live, but I don't mind that!). Because of this, I do have to keep an eye on what I feed her when. She had a big meal week a few weeks ago, when my tiny baby girl kept refusing her meals, and, reluctant to waste a feeder, I handed them over to Nessie. She probably ate 3 tiny meals in a two week period, which kept her pretty full until a few nights ago, at which point she began roaming for a meal. Today I'm picking her up a proper sized meal for her to get her back on her normal weekly schedule.

There is ALWAYS such a thing as overfeeding, with any creature on this earth. It's our job as responsible keepers to make sure our animals don't come to unnecessary harm, and keeping them from obesity that can lead to major health issues is just one of those things. Am I saying an extra meal here and there is gonna kill em? No, not at all, and if they'll take it ,let em have it, because we all know that hunger strikes are common for these guys. But keeping meals in moderation and making sure it's a relatively sized prey for their mass is a really important part of what we do.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I can bet many females in the wild are not breeding till they are 4+ years old, while some breeders try to breed their girls as soon as possible, which could be as young as a year old.

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I was hoping this thread would present the opportunity for me to share a thought I had, then got pessimistic, then you brought my opportunity back!

So this is COMPLETE SPECULATION but it is based on pretty deep knowledge of biology and ecology:

I was thinking the other day that the famous 1,000g wall might have something to do with evolution. It's advantageous to stay smaller in a lot of cases. I can imagine females evolving to stay at a trim 1,000g where they can find food more easily, hide more easily, etc. until they are sexually mature. At that point they would be bulking up to breed. So just an interesting thought that maybe the 1,000g wall is created by feeding a snake up 'too fast' compared to the natural growth rate and the body isn't interested in breaching 1,000g until they're looking to bulk up for eggs.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I was hoping this thread would present the opportunity for me to share a thought I had, then got pessimistic, then you brought my opportunity back!

So this is COMPLETE SPECULATION but it is based on pretty deep knowledge of biology and ecology:

I was thinking the other day that the famous 1,000g wall might have something to do with evolution. It's advantageous to stay smaller in a lot of cases. I can imagine females evolving to stay at a trim 1,000g where they can find food more easily, hide more easily, etc. until they are sexually mature. At that point they would be bulking up to breed. So just an interesting thought that maybe the 1,000g wall is created by feeding a snake up 'too fast' compared to the natural growth rate and the body isn't interested in breaching 1,000g until they're looking to bulk up for eggs.

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Interesting thought. I do see some logic in it.

Even with regular full meals, some girls take 2-3 years to get to breeding size. So I can't imagine the ones in the wild are growing at the same rate.

I admit that I did try to bulk up one of my first female hatchlings quickly in the past. She was really an aggressive eater and ate every 5 days and did hit 1200g by her first year. I did try to breed her a few months later. She did gain another 800g within those months of breeding. But in the end, she never ovulated. I believe it was a combo of age, sexual maturity, and being way too fat.

Ever since, I stopped caring on trying to race my girls to breeding size and maturity. They get there when they get there. And ultimately, I want healthy animals way more than a clutch of eggs.
Slow and steady wins the race.

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I have noticed by not feeding them like crazy I have less girls that hit the 1000 gram mark and stop eating!

I count on most girls taking 3 years to reach breeding...Some genetically grow faster and may go sooner though...

Balls only started getting fed every other day so you could get your "investment" breeding ASAP to make the big bucks before the next guy...

I'd say the caretaker of the snake is just as responsible for a snake getting overweight or other such possible issues. It's your responsibility to know the behavior of your snake. If you are a breeder, and simply have too many, it's understandable to feed your snakes on a regular schedule. But if you only have a handful that you can dedicate a more substantial time to each individual snake, you had better understand its behavior and personality. You better know when it's getting hungry so that you can feed it. If it's hungry, then just feed it. Granted, you don't have to feed it a giant meal, but a little of something is much better than a whole lot of nothing. Especially if the snake is taking food readily and doesn't need to be force fed.

I'm by no means an experienced snake person. I've only had my snake for a few months now. But we seem to have established a nice pattern of behavior with each other. If I notice my snake getting hungry, (roaming around hunting for food) he'll get a decent sized meal. The size of the meal is based on the size of him, if it can comfortably fit within him based on how large he is, then he gets it. Since our snakes are essentially domesticated, they don't have to worry about running out of food. Therefore, they can survive just fine on smaller sized prey, as long as they are fed regularly, like when they show signs of being hungry. They don't have to worry about trying to save it for later and get as large of a meal as they can possibly get, or eat as much as they can possibly cram down their throats. That's why I only feed him prey sized by his body.

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Originally Posted by ViperSRT3g

I'd say the caretaker of the snake is just as responsible for a snake getting overweight or other such possible issues. It's your responsibility to know the behavior of your snake. If you are a breeder, and simply have too many, it's understandable to feed your snakes on a regular schedule. But if you only have a handful that you can dedicate a more substantial time to each individual snake, you had better understand its behavior and personality. You better know when it's getting hungry so that you can feed it. If it's hungry, then just feed it. Granted, you don't have to feed it a giant meal, but a little of something is much better than a whole lot of nothing. Especially if the snake is taking food readily and doesn't need to be force fed.

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With a BP that goes through regular hunger strikes this type of feeding regimen probably won't be a problem. OTOH my BCI's will eat at every opportunity. They would be morbidly obese in no time if they were fed every time I observed them "hunting". Even if it's not their feeding day but I'm thawing rodents because another snake needs to eat, I can guarantee that they will all be up at the front of their enclosures waiting for a rat to arrive.

I want to make a point that I think has been missed on this topic, our BPs are not in the wild. Observations on what they do in the wild are a great (because you definitely need a baseline), but observing what happens in captivity, the environment we care about in this situation is more useful. For the most part, our animals are not fending off parasites and predators, they expend very little energy finding food, and have the ultimate in climate control. Their growth rates and metabolic demands are probably rather different in captivity than they are in the wild, so it is important to look at trends of snakes in captivity*.

*I apologize for this incomplete chain of thought, I was thinking about experiences I've had with american mustangs (yes I know that snakes are not horses or mammals). When you take a pregnant mare or a weanling into captivity, and raise the baby in the same environment as 'regular' horses, they tend to grow MUCH bigger (we had a 16 hand foal out of a 14 hand mare for example). They also tend to get obese readily, probably because they have an evolved genetic tendency toward storing calories efficiently from centuries of living on comparatively poor fodder. Hopefully someone gets where I was going with this line of contemplation, because I lost track of my thought and got distracted thinking about lunch, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I want to make a point that I think has been missed on this topic, our BPs are not in the wild. Observations on what they do in the wild are a great (because you definitely need a baseline), but observing what happens in captivity, the environment we care about in this situation is more useful. For the most part, our animals are not fending off parasites and predators, they expend very little energy finding food, and have the ultimate in climate control. Their growth rates and metabolic demands are probably rather different in captivity than they are in the wild, so it is important to look at trends of snakes in captivity*.

*I apologize for this incomplete chain of thought, I was thinking about experiences I've had with american mustangs (yes I know that snakes are not horses or mammals). When you take a pregnant mare or a weanling into captivity, and raise the baby in the same environment as 'regular' horses, they tend to grow MUCH bigger (we had a 16 hand foal out of a 14 hand mare for example). They also tend to get obese readily, probably because they have an evolved genetic tendency toward storing calories efficiently from centuries of living on comparatively poor fodder. Hopefully someone gets where I was going with this line of contemplation, because I lost track of my thought and got distracted thinking about lunch, sorry.

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They are pretty much lazy compared to their wild counterparts. They don't have to go anywhere to search for their food, therefore, no exercise to burn off food. It's the same with people....2 people can gorge themselves on the same food, but the one sitting on the couch is probably going to weigh more & have more fat, than healthy weight.

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My little guy,I feed every 3-4 on avg,he craps and constantly and all over the place.he usually takes a dump 4-6 days after he eats.he weighs around 105 grams now

my bigger guy,I feed every 3-6 days and depending on how often he craps and size of the prey I was able to get..usually the prey ranges from weanling to lathe weanlings to once In a blue a small rat,if that's all that's available. He weighs about 400 grams now

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Originally Posted by thejenius77

They are pretty much lazy compared to their wild counterparts. They don't have to go anywhere to search for their food, therefore, no exercise to burn off food. It's the same with people....2 people can gorge themselves on the same food, but the one sitting on the couch is probably going to weigh more & have more fat, than healthy weight.

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I doubt if captive snakes are any more lazy than those in the wild. They're ambush predators so it's not like they're chasing down prey. They just sit there (like they do in tubs) waiting for prey to come along...at night they roam around in the wild, just like they do in captivity...no difference...

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Originally Posted by sho220

I doubt if captive snakes are any more lazy than those in the wild. They're ambush predators so it's not like they're chasing down prey. They just sit there (like they do in tubs) waiting for prey to come along...at night they roam around in the wild, just like they do in captivity...no difference...

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What I meant is the lack of area to roam. I'm sure they roam an area greater than a few feet. Not necessarily lazy. I was using that as a way to explain the difference.

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Originally Posted by thejenius77

What I meant is the lack of area to roam. I'm sure they roam an area greater than a few feet. Not necessarily lazy. They don't get the same amount of exercise. So even if they do eat more in the wild, that just isn't practical for captive snakes. I was using that as a way to explain the difference.

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WOW. I miss a day or two and this topic blows up haha. Anyways, thank you to those you had some good points/comments/thoughts.

I must clear some things up before y'all brake out in another fight.

1. I'm not asking how often to feed mine. I think I'm doing a good job.

2. I never said they "can't" get fat because lets face it everything can get fat, even fish! Have you seen over weight goldfish? Quite odd haha.

3. Raven01, I am NOT under feeding my snakes. My little black pastel is 226g and eats XL mice 3-5 days.

4. And lastly, I'm talking about hatchlings-yearlings. Adults DO slow down eating. I mean they reach full size and aren't too worried about predators anymore. But my whole theory was about babies and that they need to eat more than once a week in order to grow fast and get alway from predators. SO I am only suggesting that these animals probably grow and eat more than we think.

As every breeder, we all do things differently. One day i'd like to observe them in the wild after completing my degree in zoology. No one will know for sure until we get more information. But as of now I will continue to feed my babies 3-5 days and when they get older their meals will slow down. But for now they are hungry and want to eat often.

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By the way, I LOVE the psych comment LOL! :D