Is the ball python trade/market collapsing?

I have had several conversations with a few people lately and many seem to feel that ever since that incident with the rock python and other people in Canada (and the US) are getting screwed for keeping ball pythons in racks (apparently its animal cruelty), we feel like the sale of ball pythons has been drastically reduced, as well as some provinces/cities banning ball pythons all together.

Has anyone noticed this at all? I am currently trying to sell my Cinnamon male locally for $100 (350g in weight) and I haven't had a single person email me, its been up for about a month now :S

I haven't had issues. Even sold my last normal in my clutch recently.

Sales tend to drop this time of year (from what I've seen in the past)
People start to panic and drop their prices to ridiculously low, then after the new year, things will pick up. The only thing with that is that the people that sell at a rockbottom price set a precedent that effects the rest of us.
I'm not worried, yet. I'm letting my hatchlings grow, and by the time the next show comes around, they will be nice plump little worms :)

I do not like rack systems at all and I do think it's very unfair to the animal..but that's me and I have no problems voicing my opinion about it..if u are breeding it's one thing,but if your jot,there is no reason to keep getting snakes to leave them basically stuck lying in draws,that's how I look at it.but to each there own.

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Originally Posted by NYHC4LIFE8899

I do not like rack systems at all and I do think it's very unfair to the animal..but that's me and I have no problems voicing my opinion about it..if u are breeding it's one thing,but if your jot,there is no reason to keep getting snakes to leave them basically stuck lying in draws,that's how I look at it.but to each there own.

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Seems a bit wishy washy to me. So you think it's unfair to keep these animals in a rack system unless the person doing so is a breeder? I probably read that wrong.

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Originally Posted by NYHC4LIFE8899

I do not like rack systems at all and I do think it's very unfair to the animal..but that's me and I have no problems voicing my opinion about it..if u are breeding it's one thing,but if your jot,there is no reason to keep getting snakes to leave them basically stuck lying in draws,that's how I look at it.but to each there own.

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I don't see the difference between 4 plastic tub walls and 4 glass walls. Tubs in a rack system hold temps and humidity better than tanks. If the snakes weren't happy in their tubs they wouldn't eat and breed.

I also worry that people are setting a low precedent for prices. What worries me the most are these auctions that have popped up all over the place. Don't get me wrong, at first I thought they were fantastic because I was picking up animals way under market value, but then I realized it was driving the rest of the market down. Too bad some people try to undercut the market price and end up ruining the market for everyone else. As for the drawer issue. From what I understand, ball pythons like it in a rack. It most closely simulates their native habitat- rodent burrows. I have a system where I have three display tanks and the rest are in racks. I keep my prettiest snakes in the display tanks until they reach breeding size then they move to the rack. I have far more issues with them in the tanks though, such as shedding problems and off feed. As soon as I put them in the rack they shed better and start eating again. I just don't believe that a rack is cruel, they really do seem to like it better.

Having your snake up for sale for 1 month is nothing. Be patient.
I had a pastel female that was up for sale for 8 months. That was my longest sale. Most of my other animals were sold within weeks. And I know some of the snakes that I have purchased from other breeders were not sold right away either.


As for racks, I haven't had any issues with them regarding the law.
When I move to a larger house, I might be inclined to move some of my more aggressive eaters into a display enclosure. But there's no way some of my ball pythons would eat in anything larger than the tubs they're in now. Heck, some of them are picky as is. So moving them to a 'humane' enclosure is pointless if they're only gong to eat/thrive in an enclosure with the same floor space as the tub.

I think I'll always keep ball pythons in racks because they thrive in there. My other non-ball snakes are in larger displays because they're not as sensitive or picky in regards to space/food. And they're species that will actually utilize the space unlike my ball pythons. My BPs are in their hides so much, they don't even utilize the extra tub space.

People going on about "market price" usually have no clue about economics.
The market price is the price the market will bear.
Sooner or later you will see Bamboo, Ghi and Coral Glow going for $200 a pop. Expect it.
Quality animals with patience can always command a higher price but, if you think you are going to get rich selling snakes from a $5K snake breeder indefinitely, you have another thing coming. Every single snake you produce(and you must remember you aren't the only one producing them) drives the price lower and lower.
Keeping these morphs out of the hands of everyone that desires them is hardly the answer. A few will make a buck by getting in early or focusing on specific projects of high quality animals. Getting in early involves risk, which is why when it does pay off (and it does not always do so), it tends to pay a larger dividend.
The market for 4 foot snakes is not dead due to the second incident involving a rather large snake in Canada in 2 or more decades. The market is going soft for crap quality animals, since anyone can easily breed these animals, where as higher quality animals although not worth their weight in gold can at least keep you in feeders for your hobby and if you apply yourself with a little luck and a lot of passion you just might do way more than subsidize your hobby.

Animals can be hard to sell if you don't have a solid reputation, or any reputation at all. Competition makes it easier for well known breeders to sell first and faster. I don't think things in the market are collapsing yet, but in some places, especially Canada, things may not be too hot right now.

+1
Most people need to look at this as a hobby that can potentially pay for itself and very little more. Only a very select few will ever make a proper living out of breeding anything. Do it for love of a species, not the hope that you can quit your day job

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Animals can be hard to sell if you don't have a solid reputation, or any reputation at all. Competition makes it easier for well known breeders to sell first and faster. I don't think things in the market are collapsing yet, but in some places, especially Canada, things may not be too hot right now.

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Great point about the Canadian market. This isn't the time to be shipping across country. Still seeing sales at expos, locally you may have better luck although that is fishing in a smaller pond so to speak.
Then there is reputation. If Markus Jayne, Slimebeard, Nagy, etc assure me they can safely ship I am inclined to believe them, now the same statement (from someone who may even be doing exactly the same things regarding cold weather shipping) just doesn't have the trust built up yet.
So, part of it could be the "paying your dues" aspect.

I think there's a lot of expectation that babies produced will sell for the price that the parents were bought for, and that's almost definitely not the case, not when the animals are capable of exponentially reproducing. If you consider that a coral glow might cost $25,000 at one point, and produces 50% coral glows in an average 4 egg clutch, that's twice the replacement rate. Expand that to all the people that those babies are sold to and you'll find that morphs quickly start to have a building supply that is going to outstrip demand at those high value levels.

Co-dom for instance.

Bob has one awesome morph, and in an average four egg clutch, makes two awesome morph (50%). There are three on the market. He sells them for a good price.
Joe and John now each have an awesome morph. In an average four egg clutch, those three awesome morphs on the market make six. There are now nine on the market.

Those nine make eighteen, 27 on the market. Those 27 make 54, and there are 81 on the market. Those 81 make 162, and there are 243 on the market. Those 243 make 486, and there are 729 on the market... and so forth.

Male production can unbalance this even more because you can breed one male morph to a bunch of female normals or pastels or whatever and way increase the amount that you produce of that special morph.

Morphs are destined to drop in price, and pretty rapidly as they start dispersing. It's just economics. I think the best thing to do is to keep reasonable expectations for what kind of income you might see from the activity, then you can't be too disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Slashmaster

I think there's a lot of expectation that babies produced will sell for the price that the parents were bought for, and that's almost definitely not the case, not when the animals are capable of exponentially reproducing. If you consider that a coral glow might cost $25,000 at one point, and produces 50% coral glows in an average 4 egg clutch, that's twice the replacement rate. Expand that to all the people that those babies are sold to and you'll find that morphs quickly start to have a building supply that is going to outstrip demand at those high value levels.

Co-dom for instance.

Bob has one awesome morph, and in an average four egg clutch, makes two awesome morph (50%). There are three on the market. He sells them for a good price.
Joe and John now each have an awesome morph. In an average four egg clutch, those three awesome morphs on the market make six. There are now nine on the market.

Those nine make eighteen, 27 on the market. Those 27 make 54, and there are 81 on the market. Those 81 make 162, and there are 243 on the market. Those 243 make 486, and there are 729 on the market... and so forth.

Male production can unbalance this even more because you can breed one male morph to a bunch of female normals or pastels or whatever and way increase the amount that you produce of that special morph.

Morphs are destined to drop in price, and pretty rapidly as they start dispersing. It's just economics. I think the best thing to do is to keep reasonable expectations for what kind of income you might see from the activity, then you can't be too disappointed.

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Not to mention the supplies and food that also goes into your investment. That effects your return negatively as well.

I see a lot of people getting out of the hobby these days and still believe that the market is very strong. It will continue to be strong as long as no one screws it up for others. Be firm, be fair, most of all... love and enjoy your animals!

The price coming down on basic mophs is normal. Its also a good thing to an extent for people lile me that can't afford the morphs that are going for $1000s of dollars. I would love to get a beautiful morph but cant afford that kind of money. I have responsibilities to pay my bills and keeps everyone in my care (2legged, 4legged and no legged) fed, housed, and taken care of. If you're just starting out in the ball python trade you need to build your reputation, your stock and your trust. It's not handed to you on a silver platter. I have seen some people advertising a 2011 male pastel for $50. Would I trust that person? No I would go to someone who has the rep and trust already there. I don't breed, but I still want an animal that wasbred from quality stock and isn't going to die on me in a week and then have the breeder tell me oh well. I want someone who will say ok here is what we are going to do. If I did breed I would try my hardest to get one of the big names out there to "apapprentice" me and show me how to do things right from the beginning. I know the world isn't fair. You buy a beautiful morph for over $5000 you want it to pay for itself. It does in beauty. This I not a hobby to expect to get rich. If you want one that does choose another. These are living, breathing beautiful animals. Yes after you buy it for x amount it does decrease in value, as other people breed the same morph it decreases it even more. Patience, passion for the species,and love of the animal sshould be your priority. Nothing in life is guaranteed, unlike what they are teaching in schools now a days.

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Originally Posted by Phantomtip

The price coming down on basic mophs is normal. Its also a good thing to an extent for people lile me that can't afford the morphs that are going for $1000s of dollars. I would love to get a beautiful morph but cant afford that kind of money. I have responsibilities to pay my bills and keeps everyone in my care (2legged, 4legged and no legged) fed, housed, and taken care of. If you're just starting out in the ball python trade you need to build your reputation, your stock and your trust. It's not handed to you on a silver platter. I have seen some people advertising a 2011 male pastel for $50. Would I trust that person? No I would go to someone who has the rep and trust already there. I don't breed, but I still want an animal that wasbred from quality stock and isn't going to die on me in a week and then have the breeder tell me oh well. I want someone who will say ok here is what we are going to do. If I did breed I would try my hardest to get one of the big names out there to "apapprentice" me and show me how to do things right from the beginning. I know the world isn't fair. You buy a beautiful morph for over $5000 you want it to pay for itself. It does in beauty. This I not a hobby to expect to get rich. If you want one that does choose another. These are living, breathing beautiful animals. Yes after you buy it for x amount it does decrease in value, as other people breed the same morph it decreases it even more. Patience, passion for the species,and love of the animal sshould be your priority. Nothing in life is guaranteed, unlike what they are teaching in schools now a days.

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Thanks everyone for the input, I want to say (and reiterate infinitely) that I am not looking to breed to get rich quick as I know it is not going to happen. I own and plan to breed BPs strictly as a hobby. I've made money breeding (a lot) of bearded dragons for 2 years, not a lot of money but a little more than enough to support the hobby (which was much more expensive than many would think) and I got out of them as my fiancee couldn't take the smell anymore (yes I cleaned their enclosures EVERY DAY) and I had a lot of work and school to focus on and just had other things going on in our lives. I moved on to BPs after seeing a pastel for the first time (keep in mind I used to have a phobia of snakes almost exactly a year ago and now I have 6 and have grown to love them, I take them all out every day and still havent been bitten (even though my spider tried to get me a few times the other day)

I love my BPs and decided to just sell one male as I want to get something different other than a cinnamon (I got him in a trade). I would never put money as the objective of having or even breeding ball pythons to begin with as this is wrong. In fact, a guy at my work offered me $200 for the snake and advice on how to breed. I immediately asked him why he wanted to breed. He said that he over heard me saying how much money some of them go for and wants to breed for the money. I immediately (and very firmly) stated that "if you are going to do it for the money, you will fail very very quickly and will be dissapointed and for that I won't sell you the snake". He obviously didn't get why I cared until I explained it. He still wants to buy the snake from me and I said I would sell just the snake for $150 and no breeding advice, but husbandry advice instead.

Didn't make the sale yet but he just went a week and a half off very sick and didn't get paid for it so hopefully he can still take it in a month or so if it still isn't sold.


As for it not selling, I don't care if it sells immediately or not, it costs me $15/week to feed all of my balls (6 in total), although its $60/month, I've started cutting down my Pastel and Bumblebee to bi-weekly feedings as they're getting bigger (1350g) and I read in many places that once they reach that weight its alright to switch to bi-weekly.

I won't even think about breeding for awhile (not until I own my own house at least)


I was just curious if the market has gone down hill ever since this stupid rock python incident. I know they've been banned in some provinces in Canada so far from what I've seen, which is too bad because they were banned by uneducated morons who think they're doing Canada a huge favour, when in reality they're hurting their own economy by not allowing legitimate businesses to sell them and generate tax revenue for the government....

i think prices for specific morphs or specific combos always go down from year to year. i dont think that rock python incident affected the market, maybe it did a tiny little bit regionally, but without the incident i think the prices would do the same.

also certain morphs have been bred for so long and in such quantities that their price is getting very close to the price of a normal.

since normals and basic single-gene morphs are so low in price now, and even double-gene combos are coming down in price, i wonder who would want a male cinnamon for breeding, and why. you dont want to produce stuff that the market is over-saturated with, and when you do breedings like cinnamon to mojave, or pastel to spider, then i just dont like the odds. 25% normals, 50% will be more copies of the single-gene stuff, and 25% double gene combos. so these breedings produce 75% hatchlings that are not really in demand anymore.

ball pythons reproduce rather slowly, if you want to see where the market will be in a few decades, look at corn snakes. they reproduce faster and in larger quantities. and now normals and different morphs are priced basically the same. a double-recessive snow corn, which is albino axanthic, goes for maybe 15-20 dollars more than a normal corn.

One problem with this industry is there is no business standardization and you have quite a few people running a muck with their pricing. Alot of people care about what they are selling and could care less about how it affects others. Some people say its because x morph has become more common so the price tanks, again there is no standardization. You can go to two diff stores and purchase any product for around the same price even though there are millions produced each year and sold around the world, and every year the price slightly increases in part by inflation but there is also standardized business

It happens every year, especially this time of year.