Is a substrate really necessary?

Hi all, I'm new on this forum and in this hobby :)

I know there are a lot of threads about the best substrates to use for ball pythons.
But my question is: is it really a necessity for ball pythons to live on some sort of substrate?

Maybe a bedding would mimick their natural habitat, but would the snakes be that uncomfortable on bare plastic (in a RUB, for example) or worse, would they
become sick (I don't know how a lack of substrate could ever cause disease)?

I tried looking for an answer on the web but I didn't find any info.
So I tried to think of some potential reasons why it could be bad husbandry :
1- Lets suppose that I put my bp in a RUB without substrate. IF I use a bowl that is easily tipped over, when that happens there is nothing to absorb the water, so the snake will get soaked (unless it has somewhere to go). Using a proper bowl would solve this problem though.
2- I guess some substrates help to keep humidity on a certain level, but if one has a tub in which just having a water bowl keeps the humidity fairly constant... then it should not be a problem either.

Can any of you think of other reasons why one shouldn't do this...
or does it sound totally ok to you to house a bp on just smooth plastic surface?
any experience?

Thanks!


btw I'm asking out of curiosity. I'm not actually that cheap not to provide some newspaper to my snakes!

Why would you want to is a better question? What is your reasoning for not using anything as a substrate? Would you want to spend 24/7 on bare plastic?

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Q: Is a substrate really necessary?
A: No

You could keep a bp in a tub with no substrate and it would probably live a long life with proper attention. Would it be the best life? I don't think so. Will it be extra work for you? Yes. You would have to clean up messes as they happen as there wouldn't be anything to absorb it. I would think you'd run a higher risk of scale rot as well. Depending on the type of rack or enclosure, you may have problems getting them to feed consistently. Substrate, even newspaper, gives them something to burrow around in and it helps to make them feel secure.

I actually don't see anything wrong with not using a substrate. Not that I'd ever go that route. For those that use paper towels or newspaper, do your balls really burrow in it? I gave paper towels a shot, didn't really care for them. I've never used newspaper, but I would think the absorption capacity wouldn't be all that great... I don't see a huge difference between bare plastic and a layer of newspaper.

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

I actually don't see anything wrong with not using a substrate. Not that I'd ever go that route. For those that use paper towels or newspaper, do your balls really burrow in it? I gave paper towels a shot, didn't really care for them. I've never used newspaper, but I would think the absorption capacity wouldn't be all that great... I don't see a huge difference between bare plastic and a layer of newspaper.

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I use newspaper and they burrow around in it, tear it up, wad it into corners, drag it into their water bowls...pretty much everything but make origami with it...it also does absorb some water/pee, but I use Sterilite tubs and they have little channels around the "perimeter", for lack of a better word, and most ends up in there...

Not using paper at the very least would be such a hassle. You would have to take them out and hose down the tubs every time the snake poos or pees. That's way too much work for me.

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In my case even with the paper towels they seem to almost intentionally shove them out of the way so they can go directly on the tub surface. Guess if I was to answer the survey it would be to say that the snake need substrate less than we need them to have it. It's nice to occasionally have a tub that doesn't require a total washdown when they mess it.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Q: Is a substrate really necessary?
A: No

You could keep a bp in a tub with no substrate and it would probably live a long life with proper attention. Would it be the best life? I don't think so. Will it be extra work for you? Yes. You would have to clean up messes as they happen as there wouldn't be anything to absorb it. I would think you'd run a higher risk of scale rot as well. Depending on the type of rack or enclosure, you may have problems getting them to feed consistently. Substrate, even newspaper, gives them something to burrow around in and it helps to make them feel secure.

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:number1: X2.

Not the same but my friend decided to go the route of no bedding and/or litter in his ferret cage. Bathed the poor thing everyday instead because nothing was there to absorb the pee. Ended up giving the ferret to me after 6 months

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We confine these animals to small spaces and they don't have the option to crawl away from their poop/pee. The least you can do is put something moderately absorbent in with them to ensure they aren't swimming in it. I'm pretty sure sitting directly in it would lead to skin problems and make the snake's body a filthy place where nasty micro-organisms could multiply.

Honestly, having a paper substrate doesn't feel much different from the tub surface. My snakes tend to go under their newspaper and sit on the tub plastic anyway. However, I keep newspaper to catch poo and absorb pee. If you've ever cleaned urates, they are pretty difficult to scrub by hand once they're dried to the plastic. I'd rather have my snakes get their urates and poo stuck to the newspaper.......

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Originally Posted by Crazymonkee

Not the same but my friend decided to go the route of no bedding and/or litter in his ferret cage. Bathed the poor thing everyday instead because nothing was there to absorb the pee. Ended up giving the ferret to me after 6 months

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So nasty!!! I need to have the entire caged covered in bedding or else my guys would just crap everywhere. The breeding seems to prevent them from going in random spots and stick to the litter box.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Honestly, having a paper substrate doesn't feel much different from the tub surface. My snakes tend to go under their newspaper and sit on the tub plastic anyway. However, I keep newspaper to catch poo and absorb pee. If you've ever cleaned urates, they are pretty difficult to scrub by hand once they're dried to the plastic. I'd rather have my snakes get their urates and poo stuck to the newspaper.......




So nasty!!! I need to have the entire caged covered in bedding or else my guys would just crap everywhere. The breeding seems to prevent them from going in random spots and stick to the litter box.

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Ikr!!! At least now his fur feels like fur and not needles, poor guy was so dry from everyday bathing!
But back on topic.... mine tend to borrow in the borrow in the aspen at times also, but at least they have a choice :)

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Urates especially tend to stick when they dry, it's a hassle scraping that stuff off of plastic. I use several layers of newspaper in my tubs and most of it will get soaked up by the paper which makes it easier to clean, also most of my snakes love to sandwich themselves between the layers of paper so there is no need to include a hide box which mean one less thing to clean.

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

In my case even with the paper towels they seem to almost intentionally shove them out of the way so they can go directly on the tub surface. Guess if I was to answer the survey it would be to say that the snake need substrate less than we need them to have it. It's nice to occasionally have a tub that doesn't require a total washdown when they mess it.

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that's what I thought.

Personally, i think from a functional standpoint, the snakes dont NEED a substrate, but i do think at least some kind of liner is necessary. A snake having to sit in a puddle of its own pee and poop is disgusting, not to mention unhygienic. At least a layer of paper towels or something would absorb the liquids so the snake stays semi dri until you remove it. I couldnt imagine a snake peeing, pooping, then flipping its water bowl to make a "snake poop soup" would be very lovely to lay in...
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Ok so when your snake pisses all over the tub and he is soaked in urine and he stinks and the tank stinks and your room stinks,then maybe you will think substrate is useful

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Originally Posted by sho220

I use newspaper and they burrow around in it, tear it up, wad it into corners, drag it into their water bowls...pretty much everything but make origami with it..

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Funny you should mention that. I found this in one of my snake tubs while spot cleaning the other day!

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...97-d56bxp7.jpg

Hmmm...

I think everyone here has good points. OP it kinda looks like you already have an answer in mind and are looking for someone to side with you (I could be wrong). I think that you are going to do what you like, and I guess you'll have to see for youself if that's the case :P

To chime in my opinion, I think that mimicing the snake's natural habitat would be the least stressful for them, so why not spend the extra buck on substrate (or even newspaper or paper towel if you've already got it; at least it's something other than cool plastic), and have less work for yourself to do? If it's a money thing, substrate really isn't all that expensive because snakes don't go through a tonne of it - compared to other small animals that use it, that's for sure!
If it's a looks thing, there are many options out there that you may find appealing.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

I use bedding (wood shavings) because I can just use a doggie poop bag to scoop out poop. No smell, no mess, and my corn snakes in particular love to burrow in it. They manage to hide all 5' of themselves in it.

No bedding at all would be disgusting and extra work for everyone involved.

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human analogy:

is toilet paper really necessary? no.

does it suck to not have toilet paper? yes. heck, in emergecy situations most people would rather use their own socks and flush them instead of doing nothing.

potential health issues from sitting in feces aside, i would not want to handle a BP and would not like the smell of it if it just spent hours in its own feces.

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Originally Posted by NH93

Hmmm...

I think everyone here has good points. OPit kinda looks like you already have an answer in mind and are looking for someone to side with you (I could be wrong). I think that you are going to do what you like, and I guess you'll have to see for youself if that's the case :P

To chime in my opinion, I think that mimicing the snake's natural habitat would be the least stressful for them, so why not spend the extra buck on substrate (or even newspaper or paper towel if you've already got it; at least it's something other than cool plastic), and have less work for yourself to do? If it's a money thing, substrate really isn't all that expensive because snakes don't go through a tonne of it - compared to other small animals that use it, that's for sure!
If it's a looks thing, there are many options out there that you may find appealing.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

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I thought I made myself clear in my first post: I keep all my snakes on newspaper right now, and the purpose of this thread is not to justify whatever change I want to bring to my own husbandry, but to establish an objective standard (now that sounds nerdy lol, but I don't know how else to put it), the minimal requirements for anyone keeping a BP.
You are right, I kind of wanted to hear someone say that substrates are not an absolute necessity for BPs, because it confirmed my doubts :P
but that doesn't mean I discarded all different ideas on the subject.

My albino ball would always push the newspaper aside and sit on bare plastic, so while I am a firm believer of evolutionary biology, it made me think that us mimicking the natural environment is not always what captive bred ball pythons want... Or maybe my albino is just weird :P

Thank you everybody for contributing to the discussion!

For the people saying there balls burrow and lay on the plastic or glass,well mine does the same in his hot spot. He lays on the glass and burrows in the aspen. But substrate is there mainly for hygienic purposes.. I would never let my snake have to slither around in his own pee n poo,that's just horrible.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

human analogy:

is toilet paper really necessary? no.

does it suck to not have toilet paper? yes. heck, in emergecy situations most people would rather use their own socks and flush them instead of doing nothing.

potential health issues from sitting in feces aside, i would not want to handle a BP and would not like the smell of it if it just spent hours in its own feces.

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Omg....THAT is the funniest darn thing i read all week!! I almost choked on my breakfast! :D

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