Treat or freeze?

Stupid question but do you treat RI or freeze the snakes?

I rescued some bps and have been giving injections and they are improving but have been advised by 8 breeders to put them all in the frezer. They state that ri can never truly be cured.

I just want your opinions on what you do and why.

Thanks

What do you mean, "put them in the freezer"? I know that you are asking whether you should put them down or try to save them (and unfortunately I do not have an answer for you on that)... but if you do put them down, definitely do not just stick them in the freezer!! You would absolutely need to find a more humane alternative to doing this, as freezing is a slow (and I would think painful) process :(

Sorry if I am misunderstanding.

I want the breeders's names so I know never to buy from them.

Even IF an RI were untreatable, which it isn't, euthing a snake by freezing it is cruel and inhumane.

1) Freezing is NOT a humane method of euthanasia. So we don't put anybody in the freezer.
2)RI is a pretty broad term, so it isn't accurate to just make a blanket statement that RIs can never be cured. Did you have a culture done to find out what you are dealing with? When someone says a snake has a RI, they are talking about symptoms, unless a culture has already been done. And there are lots of things that can cause a snake to show respiratory symptoms. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, or environmental. Even if it's bacterial, if the bacteria isn't sensitive to the antibiotic you are using, you are wasting your time.

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Originally Posted by NH93

What do you mean, "put them in the freezer"?

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That is exactly what they said they do when they get a sick animal.

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Originally Posted by Elusive Dream

That is exactly what they said they do when they get a sick animal.

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Then most likely it's a business decision where the breeder has decided that when the cost of treatment > cost of animal, dump/write off the animal. While I understand the decision as a business owner and for inanimate objects it makes sense, it's not one I agree with when it comes to living animals.

So, who are these eight people?

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

RI is a pretty broad term, so it isn't accurate to just make a blanket statement that RIs can never be cured. Did you have a culture done to find out what you are dealing with? When someone says a snake has a RI, they are talking about symptoms, unless a culture has already been done. And there are lots of things that can cause a snake to show respiratory symptoms. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, or environmental. Even if it's bacterial, if the bacteria isn't sensitive to the antibiotic you are using, you are wasting your time.

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I took all of them to the herp vet. He said they have upper RI but the lower is clear on all of them. He gave them shots at the office and sent me home with syringes and baytril for 30 days for all of them.

The rack temps and humiditiy have been spot on.

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Originally Posted by Elusive Dream

I took all of them to the herp vet. He said they have upper RI but the lower is clear on all of them. He gave them shots at the office and sent me home with syringes and baytril for 30 days for all of them.

The rack temps and humiditiy have been spot on.

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Did he do a culture to find out what is causing the RI?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

So, who are these eight people?

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I will pm you the list if you want it.

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Originally Posted by Elusive Dream

I will pm you the list if you want it.

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I would like the list as well, so I know who not to deal with

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Originally Posted by Elusive Dream

I will pm you the list if you want it.

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I would also like the list.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Did he do a culture to find out what is causing the RI?

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He said we might need to change antibiotics when he received results, he called a week after I took the first one in and said the batryl will treat them and made one dose adjustment for the smallest snake.

How long have they been on the Baytril?

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Originally Posted by Elusive Dream

I will pm you the list if you want it.

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Thank you, I would appreciate that a lot.

Same here. List, please.

Freeze them? Ouch. That's hardcore. I wouldn't do that to a poor sick snake! I can't believe those breeders can sleep at night.

Uggh. What kinda sick person would freeze an animal to death? Disgusting...

Please send me the list as well. That is cruel. I will not do bussiness with someone like that.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

How long have they been on the Baytril?

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The first snake went to the vet on the 25th of Sept and has been quarantined since then. She was in a rack that holds 6 28qts and 5 41qts tub rack. I tore the rack down bleached everything and used f10 vet disinfectant and checked the other snakes. They were not showing symptoms at that time so I thought I caught it early enough.

1 other snake in the rack showed symptoms about 2 weeks later and has been receiving anitbotics and quarantined as well.

Went through the disinfectant process again and Wednesday have 2 others showing signs. Packaged the rest up and took all 9 that were in the rack to the vet.

So in a nut shell they are in various stages vet care at this time.

In an effort to keep the thread on track and focused on your sick animals, someone receiving this list of breeders might consider a separate thread to share the names? I am thinking in the camp of people who are misinformed/cold hearted enough to inhumanely put a snake down (illegal in most states unless I've missed something about reptiles not being protected by animal cruelty laws) there are 2 types:

#1 -People who do it and never speak of it

#2 -People who do it and have no problem talking about it or advising others to do it


Both are despicable, but people who are in group #2 need to be rooted out and publicly slammed for sharing information like that with less experienced keepers as if it's an appropriate or even LEGAL means of putting a reptile down. OP I am glad you have taken the animals to the vet and are getting some help there. I think you have a responsibility to the hobby to share those names. I can see the pictures on the news now of frozen snakes and people calling for the end of hobby breeding.

Snakes do recover from RI if treated properly, that means early as possible and long enough by a reputable herp vet.

Sure some animals with weaker immune system may not recover or may develop one RI after another but it's no a common occurrence, and each case should be evaluated before deciding to euthanize.

Honestly I am not surprised by what you were told and I have heard even worse before (but that would be another debate) , I guess for some people it's just value of the animal vs cost of treatment.......sad but true.

I also would also like that list please.

When someone gets this list please pm it to me. I would greatly appreciate it.

To the OP I hope your snakes recover.

In going through your old threads it looks like you took in 8 rescue BP's during the middle of last August, and lost 3 of those rescued babies in early September, so that leaves 5 rescues still alive. Are the rescues still QT'ed from the rest of your collection, or is this an RI they brought in that is now popping up through even your established group?

it makes no sense to not give them a chance to recover.

they have an immune system too and even without meds some of them will recover, vet care just drives up the odds and helps them recover faster. When its caused by a virus, there is no medication that really works anyway.

i would give all of them a chance to recover, even without vet care some may pull through and fully recover.

i would consider euthanasia only for these that continue to deteriorate, when they get so bad that they have trouble breathing, or when they just fail to get rid of the RI after everything has been tried.

(and about the other topic: euthanasia means something like merciful death or painless death, and freezing is not that. humane methods i heared about would be an injection from a vet, and for a DIY method i often heared about pithing, which is basically swift brain damage. or you put them in deep sedation and then cause brain damage.)

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Originally Posted by bcr229

In going through your old threads it looks like you took in 8 rescue BP's during the middle of last August, and lost 3 of those rescued babies in early September, so that leaves 5 rescues still alive. Are the rescues still QT'ed from the rest of your collection, or is this an RI they brought in that is now popping up through even your established group?

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That's a good question. I took the 5 to the vet again the end of September and he cleared 4 to move from quarantine, I used hibicleanse on the animals, 10% bleach, rinsed and then F10 on the new tubs before putting them in the rack. The Vet said to give the other another month or two to be on the safe side. All 4 of those are doing great.

It is the main housing rack that is showing signs. I have never dealt with RI before this. Not sure if one of those 4 was carrying it but not infected? But with all the disinfecting I am not sure. For all I know it might be my fault in cross contamination, at this point with all that I have going on with them I am not sure what is the main cause I just know they are sick.

My set up is a rack that holds 28 qts for the subs on top and 41s for the adults underneath. Belly heat on a herpstat 2 temp at bottom of inside of the tubs is at 90.5 taken with IR temp gun and a digital probed unit taped down inside an empty tub. Have a 1/2 degree variation. Humidity is 54%. I run it as low as I can and still have perfect sheds. I have only had one snake blow up a shed.

I have had snakes off and on since 1993 and feel I have a pretty good grasp on care but always look at all the information given to me.

I just want people to know that the only way these snakes will not be treated is if they pass away on their own. I have taken them in and will go broke with Vet bills if that is what it takes. I just wanted others opinions on the matter. Didn't mean to stir things up so bad.

Sorry to revive a month old thread, but I was on leave from the forums so I missed this. Can somebody forward me that list as well? Thanks.

I was also away for awhile. Can I get the list?

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I'd like the list as well.

Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or any thing for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. And contrary to many beliefs, they do not go into hibernation. Its also said they can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours.....

I'm not surprised that some breeders suggested freezing. Freezing is an accepted old school method that many breeders have been using for generations. I don't agree with it at all. Modern science has shown that it is not a humane, painless, or quick method and should not be used to euthanize reptiles. Unfortunately, many people are still ignorant of this.


So whatever you do, please continue to treat your animals until they recover or your vet decides it's a lost cause.
Bacterial RI is the most common and not difficult to treat.
Fungal RI is a little bit more tough, but still treatable. And there is no treatment for viral RI.
If you've been seeing an improvement, then that's a good sign.

Also interested in that list.

Yes I would like the list too. I would never want to give my money to a person that would suggest something so inhumane.

List here also please.

He never sent anyone the list

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I didn't get it either.