southern ontario breeders price wars

Hey everyone im here fora bit of a rant, i go to every expo in my area of southern ontario usually one a month. But things have just gotten rediculous up here. Last year prices seemed stable cheapy morphs are 125-350$ new things wwre 750 -1000 this past expo i was seeing mojave females for 75$ pin females 100$ pastels were 50$ spiders same 50$. I love how i bought all these last year for 250 350 for males. The breeders up here are trying to out produce n under sell each other so much that ppl r giving snakes away. I was offered a phatom breeder male het alb. 40$. Soon there will b no market up here or no one will be breeding becaise they cant affors the rats. Anyone else find this discusting n foolish. Or is it happening by you

nothing can be done about it, its the way the market works.

do you want to grab them by the sholders and tell them they should stop breeding? Why would they listen? Nope, if they are in it for the money they will continue until they lose hope of breaking even, and if they are in it for the fun of it they will continue as long as its fun.

i dont see how it could be called "disgusting n foolish". No individual in the game can change it.

Buy all the mojave females and hope you can catch a ghi for $200 lol!

If Grant wanted to he could put together an approved pricing list. Then anyone who vends at the show sells their snakes for the same, or more than what they have agreed to. Sure, some people would be against that idea - but it would help to normalize the market. I would agree to it.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

If Grant wanted to he could put together an approved pricing list. Then anyone who vends at the show sells their snakes for the same, or more than what they have agreed to. Sure, some people would be against that idea - but it would help to normalize the market. I would agree to it.

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i live in Germany, and basically its a weird cross of democracy, capitalism, and socialism, so i know a bit about how to tinker with the free market if necessary.

and i dont really believe that would work. it would only hurt that specific reptile show and people would just undermine and undercut it. Obvious ideas would be to give some sort of kickback under the table. like, you buy a morph that is worth 50, but the event forces the seller to charge 100, so you pay 100 and get a 50 dollar gift card, to be used online or when purchasing at any other event.

one idea that could work would be an import tax of 20 dollars for any python hatchling or snake imported into the USA. That would make the dirt cheap mass imports of tens of thousands of normal hatchlings from africa unfeasible, and suddenly the big chains and the big distributors will look at locally bred BPs and morphs with different eyes. Thats the big price undercut, in africa you pay between 5 and 7 dollars for a nice healthy but unfed hatchling, you put 2000 in a big box and get them to the USA. In the USA they are then at 20 dollars a piece and get distributed to the big chains. No breeder in the USA can possibly compete. these shipments happen all the time.

Approved pricing lists can work if you implement extreme social ostracism on breeders who sell under that amount. However everyone has an incentive to do backroom deals at lower prices to get stuff sold. This is actually quite a good thing for consumers because their goods are constantly decreasing in cost and the quality of the breeders must continue to increase if said breeders want to sell and stand out from the rest. Also, we should all be in a race to innovate and outcompete the masses. This is the only way that your business has a shot at surviving long term.

Well up here in Canada we have roughly 1 dozen expos a year, and 1 major forum... they are all owned by the same guy. So if he chose to dictate the price of animals at his shows, or on his forum...well.... he probably could make a huge impact.

sure people would still sell for less on their won, but the mass exposure would be higher pricing.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

If Grant wanted to he could put together an approved pricing list. Then anyone who vends at the show sells their snakes for the same, or more than what they have agreed to. Sure, some people would be against that idea - but it would help to normalize the market. I would agree to it.

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Until people make deals and then go meet in the parking lot for a lower price.....

I see the same thing happening here in the states. I'm seeing pastels for $50 and spiders for the same. It stinks that it's happening but that's how the market is. But all I know is that when my babies start hatching from their eggs nothing is going to be sold for $50. I think normals are worth more than $50 so in my opinion no morph should ever be priced that low. But that's just my personal opinion. I can't understand how you feel about it.


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

I see the same thing happening here in the states. I'm seeing pastels for $50 and spiders for the same. It stinks that it's happening but that's how the market is. But all I know is that when my babies start hatching from their eggs nothing is going to be sold for $50. I think normals are worth more than $50 so in my opinion no morph should ever be priced that low. But that's just my personal opinion. I can't understand how you feel about it.


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Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

I see the same thing happening here in the states. I'm seeing pastels for $50 and spiders for the same. It stinks that it's happening but that's how the market is. But all I know is that when my babies start hatching from their eggs nothing is going to be sold for $50. I think normals are worth more than $50 so in my opinion no morph should ever be priced that low. But that's just my personal opinion. I can't understand how you feel about it.

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What if they don't sell at $50? Food and bedding will add up to at least $50 at some point...after that point, every snake is a loss, and the longer you hold them, the bigger the losses.

Friend of mine is selling his normals to a wholesaler for $12 to $15 just to get rid of them. He's got a pastel male he's about ready to give away. If someone would offer him $40 for it, he would jump at it.

If you're happy keeping them as pets, that's understandable. I'm doing a little breeding this year (2 females only...hopefully it works out), but it's a hobby for me, so my view is a little different from people who do this as a business. I'm just not sure what angle you're looking at it from.

That's about how it was at the show I went to. I paid 120 for my female lesser. Males were 75. Female mojaves were 100 and male mojaves were 60. Male pastels and spiders were 40-50 and females about double that. Normals were about 15-20. Most of the 2+ gene animals were more in the same range as prices I've seen online though.

Well I just wanted to give my quick little opinion but this is the last thing I'll say before people start getting nasty. I know this won't matter to people that are looking at it from a business standpoint, it might not even make sense to them. I don't even know if hobbyist will get it but oh well it's just how I feel about this whole thing. Just think about any inanimate object that is $100 or less. Or maybe even more than that. Like a brand new game console. The ps3. Which is about $300 brand new. To me I Value life, and the life of anything is Valuable to me. So I think that a pet is more valuable than these other inanimate objects that we buy for fun/entertainment. If people can pay that much for those types of recreation why wouldn't they want to pay what an animal is actually worth? It's not like everyone on earth can't afford a $200 bp morph. A $50 one is just more appealing but there are plenty of people that will pay more for a quality bp morph. How do you think all of the other big breeders are still in business? There definitely not selling snakes for $50. I know I'm not a big breeder but I think I should be able to sell my animals for the same price as they are selling there's. If I sell a brand new iPhone 5 and I'll price it as whats it's worth from the apple website because it's the same exact thing. If I'm selling a pastel and their selling a pastel why would I sell mine for $50 when they are selling there's for $200? That's just how I'm seeing things. But my viewpoints are probably super wrong compared to other peoples but it doesn't matter. It is how I want to view the situation and it's my Personal opinion on the matter. If you don't like it I'm sorry. But to the op I totally understand how you feel and maybe we can relate on this and be the two oddballs out of the group :) I hope everyone is having an awesome day and an even better season!!


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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

How do you think all of the other big breeders are still in business? There definitely not selling snakes for $50.

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Oh they definitely are, they're over producing just like everyone else is. Why do you think auctions have become so popular? Because they can't sell what they produce at the market price fast enough so it gets dumped to the highest bidder...

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Originally Posted by Akren_905

Hey everyone im here fora bit of a rant, i go to every expo in my area of southern ontario usually one a month. But things have just gotten rediculous up here. Last year prices seemed stable cheapy morphs are 125-350$ new things wwre 750 -1000 this past expo i was seeing mojave females for 75$ pin females 100$ pastels were 50$ spiders same 50$. I love how i bought all these last year for 250 350 for males. The breeders up here are trying to out produce n under sell each other so much that ppl r giving snakes away. I was offered a phatom breeder male het alb. 40$. Soon there will b no market up here or no one will be breeding becaise they cant affors the rats. Anyone else find this discusting n foolish. Or is it happening by you

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Focus on quality and you will do alright. The volume might be lower and the start slower but, I think in the long run it can really pay off. I like axanthics myself but and generally unhappy with how both the VPI and TSK lines mature. Consequently, when I am ready to jump into the axes I will be purchasing MJ line likely for more that standard axes go for (I saw some of his at a medium size at the CRBE and they had really retained their silver/black without the heavy browns) and possibly if I get very lucky trying for some Black Ax, I would be cool to prove out or disprove in those are compatible with the MJ line. Worst case I get some double het's and still have some really nice snakes to work with.

So if the oil companies get together and say "gas should not be going that cheap" and all agree to keep prices high, you would be ok with that? Sherman Anti-Trust Act? I know it is not really the same thing, but the market needs to determine pricing. If that is the price for normals or single gene snakes, there are probably too many available. I am not a breeder, just have pets (Male Pastel and Female Bumble Bee), but people like me could have a big impact on pricing. My snakes are pets, but when I got the bumble bee, I made sure to get a female in case I want to breed them. I bet there a a lot of people that do the same thing. Just my $.02

I too am in Southern Ontario, and have visited some shows recently. I am brand new to snakes, just a few months into it (not even years) so I have nothing to compare to. However, I personally don't mind the prices being reduced - slightly - for people like me who just want one or two snakes as pets. Now, I don't need to have the most sought-after or fancy snake to be happy. I was super excited just to get my pinstripe :)
There was one guy at the Toronto expo selling normal males for $10. This has me worried, not for the ball python/snake market, but for people getting pets without doing their research or taking proper care of them.
If you can pick up an animal that cheap I feel like people may be more inclined to spend less on its needs altogether, and not put the effort into taking care of it as much. When you "invest" in an animal, like anything, you will want to take care of it. I think that's just human nature.


That's all I have to say about that. :snake:

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Originally Posted by NH93

I too am in Southern Ontario, and have visited some shows recently. I am brand new to snakes, just a few months into it (not even years) so I have nothing to compare to. However, I personally don't mind the prices being reduced - slightly - for people like me who just want one or two snakes as pets. Now, I don't need to have the most sought-after or fancy snake to be happy. I was super excited just to get my pinstripe :)
There was one guy at the Toronto expo selling normal males for $10. This has me worried, not for the ball python/snake market, but for people getting pets without doing their research or taking proper care of them.
If you can pick up an animal that cheap I feel like people may be more inclined to spend less on its needs altogether, and not put the effort into taking care of it as much. When you "invest" in an animal, like anything, you will want to take care of it. I think that's just human nature.


That's all I have to say about that. :snake:

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X2
This is a great point about super cheap normal males possibly being homed with people that don't want to spend a few hundred on housing a $10-15 animal.
Since few breeders are snapping up normal males this does seem to present an opportunity to anyone also selling/setting up racks or terrariums. i.e buy an appropriate enclosure and get a FREE introductory snake.
Sometimes we can lose sight of the fact that even wild-types are still good looking animals in the excitement of all the paintjobs.
That way you know the animal has a decent chance at being properly cared for, the person has invested (possibly through you or an affiliate) so will be inclined to continue looking after the animal. And, even if the end up addicted and breeding I'll bet most of us would still have "the normal that started it all" for us if that were our situation.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Well up here in Canada we have roughly 1 dozen expos a year, and 1 major forum... they are all owned by the same guy. So if he chose to dictate the price of animals at his shows, or on his forum...well.... he probably could make a huge impact.

sure people would still sell for less on their won, but the mass exposure would be higher pricing.

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What "mass exposure"?
If he did that I would stop going.
And, I bet I am not the only one.
Actually, that might get me even better prices since, I would develop a relationship with a few breeders so those less expensive snakes could find themselves just thrown in or greatly reduced after a few larger purchases.
Honestly, if someone buys a pair of $3k snakes off you and expressed interest in a pastel female hatchling or 2 can you tell me you wouldn't throw them in? Excluding of course special project "basic morphs" where you are trying to produce the highest quality or breed for exaggerated expression of certain morphs markers.


The line of thought you are endorsing is exactly why in Canada we have the worlds worst cellphone rates for the service we get.
Cartels and price-fixing is not the answer.
Breeding quality animals and setting what you consider a fair price is.

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

I see the same thing happening here in the states. I'm seeing pastels for $50 and spiders for the same. It stinks that it's happening but that's how the market is. But all I know is that when my babies start hatching from their eggs nothing is going to be sold for $50. I think normals are worth more than $50 so in my opinion no morph should ever be priced that low. But that's just my personal opinion. I can't understand how you feel about it.


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That is not based on any economic reality. The market will find equilibrium. Remember when builders could pay $40,000 to build a house and then sell it for $150,000? A ton of crappy houses got built everywhere. It took several years but the market corrected, prices fell fast, less houses were built and the market evened out again. Trying to stop market pricing might have a small effect for a little while, but in the end supply and demand will rule the day.

i feel really ashamed for my earlier post where i just failed to realize that Ontario is in Canada rather than in the USA..... really embarassing.

i just want to say: to compete with large hatchling imports from africa, prices for locally bred normals and basic single-gene morphs needs to be even lower.

what recently blew me away completely is that for some species of chameleon, the cheapest captive bred ones are 200-300 dollars while the cheapest wild caught imports go for 100-150. :O thats NOT HEALTHY. I mean, unless you want these species to go extinct in the wild, so that the few breeders have a monopoly, thats just not good. For many reptile species, the price for a captive bred is double or triple the price of a wild caught specimen.

i mean, what could be more devastating while at the same time being economically gratifying for a breeder than to hear:

(About some chameleon) "Congratulations, the species you are breeding is now extinct in the wild. You failed to produce them for under 100 dollars a piece, which would have been necessary to undercut the market price for wild caught imports. Now you can keep selling them for 200-300 dollars a piece, like you always did, because they are basically extinct in the wild and the cheap imports dried up because of that."

OK thats chameleons, BPs are different, but still, there is one party that benefits when prices for locally bred BPs crash, and that would be the wild population of BPs. Wild ball pythons will never be threatened because they are holy in some places, if you do not know it already watch it. The video starts a bit slow and the presenter has a bit of a snake phobia. Also there are strong accents. Still, its the best video covering this and people should be aware. After all these are half-wild ball pythons being worshipped in a dedicated temple. The BPs stay there during the day, and they all go out at night for hunting, sometimes locals accept them into their homes and feed them. in the early morning all the pythons return to the temple. I strongly suspect this is the largest temple dedicated to ball pythons in existence. I do not know of any other temples dedicated to ball pythons and/or housing ball pythons, please let me know if you aware of other places like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv6EmX7dYLg

I just think maybe a really low price for captive bred reptiles and nice morphs can help protect the wild populations, be it that ball python temple in Benin that is centuries old, or some arcane species of chameleons.

Maybe in the larger context it is not bad when prices get so low that import prices are undercut. Right now some brutal idiot could still make some money by raiding that wonderful BP temple in Benin and putting the BPs in boxes and shipping them off. When the python market in the first world overheats and tanks, there will still be a winner: The wild pythons.


I try to not be hating on anyone, i just want to open minds and show larger contexts.

The ball python market in Canada (and I suspect in the U.S) has reached saturation point. It's simple supply and demand. The demand is still pretty high from what I can tell. But the supply is even higher. The Crbe had Mabye 100+ vendors. Of those probably 85 were selling only balls. And the remaining tables only a handful didnt have at least a few. I was there to sell cages and racks and even I had a few of a friend of mine for sale. Even with the super low prices people are talking about they Wern't selling. I know a few of the big breeders that didnt sell anything, or sold very little. IMHO the glory days of the ball market, at least from a business standpoint are over. People have been talking about it for years. Everyone that buys from you in 18 months becomes your compitition. And there simply isn't enough new people coming in to the hobby to continue with that forever. If you love regius then keep them. If your hoping to make a living off breeding them your probably out of luck. I've personally seen at least 3 breeders dump good sized collections here in ontario in the last month. The writing is on the wall I'm afraid. I still think the market will recover to some degree. Give it maybe 5 years and lots of the people now breeding will have gotten tired of warehousing a scores of babies that won't sell at any price and will have gotten out. But until then it's going to be hard going for anyone wanting to breed and sell balls in Ontario at least. At least that's how I see it.

This whole conversation reminds me of tulips....

PythonFriend... although I like our video, I am appalled that you thought us Ontarians were in the US.

;)

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

I just think maybe a really low price for captive bred reptiles and nice morphs can help protect the wild populations, be it that ball python temple in Benin that is centuries old, or some arcane species of chameleons.

Maybe in the larger context it is not bad when prices get so low that import prices are undercut. Right now some brutal idiot could still make some money by raiding that wonderful BP temple in Benin and putting the BPs in boxes and shipping them off. When the python market in the first world overheats and tanks, there will still be a winner: The wild pythons.


I try to not be hating on anyone, i just want to open minds and show larger contexts.

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Well, there is also just a general ignorance of the hidden costs of owning WC stuff correctly.

A $25 normal CB ball python is going to cost you far less then a $10 normal WC animal and will save you tons of time. I spent about $15 in NIX/PAM/Dawn Soap to remove the ticks my WC girl had and it took 3 months to guarantee that their lifecycle was done. Then there was the $90 vet visit to do a fecal to make sure she was cleared of internal parasites. Not to mention that ASFs arent exactly cheap unless you have a supplier (like i do) that offers them at normal rat prices. Still I had to drive 4 hours to get them and that ate up gas money, AND I now have an ASF colony to feed the WC girl and picky eaters.

So yeah, none of those hidden costs are there with CB animals except the vet fee if you get the animal from a crappy breeder.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i feel really ashamed for my earlier post where i just failed to realize that Ontario is in Canada rather than in the USA..... really embarrassing.

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LOL! All good http://boards.sportslogos.net/public...flagcanada.gif

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

If Grant wanted to he could put together an approved pricing list. Then anyone who vends at the show sells their snakes for the same, or more than what they have agreed to. Sure, some people would be against that idea - but it would help to normalize the market. I would agree to it.

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This is just the worst idea ever.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

This is just the worst idea ever.

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Ever? :tears: