Bedding and other questions

K so im going to start breeding rats. I got two racks that I have built and want to do this the best way. I have seen so many different answers and comments on bedding. I want the best way to keep down the smell (yes I know cleaning is best way). I have seen some people say pine is the best for this but seen alot of people say it is not good to use? So is it ok? what is best kiln pine? pine pellets?Also seen a few people say give them little bit of vanilla extract? how much and does it work? And then I have looked at a watering system at beanfarm.com looks like to do two racks is about $80 is that average price? also is there better place to get a system? sorry just trying to do this right the first time and not have to redo everything down the road.Any other hints on breeding rats would be much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

K so im going to start breeding rats. I got two racks that I have built and want to do this the best way. I have seen so many different answers and comments on bedding. I want the best way to keep down the smell (yes I know cleaning is best way). I have seen some people say pine is the best for this but seen alot of people say it is not good to use? So is it ok? what is best kiln pine? pine pellets?Also seen a few people say give them little bit of vanilla extract? how much and does it work? And then I have looked at a watering system at beanfarm.com looks like to do two racks is about $80 is that average price? also is there better place to get a system? sorry just trying to do this right the first time and not have to redo everything down the road.Any other hints on breeding rats would be much appreciated.

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I use kiln dried pine without issue. Not sure what brand it is, I just get it at my local feed store. There isn't much noticeable smell in my rat room aside from the bedding, which I kind of like :) I've never used vanilla, so I can't help you there. I'm currently in the process of outfitting two racks with a watering system. Cheapest place is here: http://www.klubertanz.com/CatalogMain.htm. I got my tubing from home depot as well as my t-connectors. Much cheaper, and I don't have to pay shipping. I think 50 ft of tubing was around 8 bucks. I opted to use my own bucket for water, so if you go that route, be sure to get the tank valve. Don't try to silicone a piece of tubing to the bucket like I did :/

Also, I like to feed a varied diet. Though it's not necessary, I feel like my rats get an extra boost from them. 50 pounds of oats is only 15 bucks, and it lasts me quite awhile. I give them leftover veggies and cooked or raw pasta as well. Pretty much anything we don't finish lol. Mine seem very healthy, shiny coats, bright eyes and large litters. You'll probably spend some time figuring out what works best for your situation. Best of luck.

thank you that helps alot ;) Ill check out the website and hit up home depot

Kiln dried pine is the best to keep odor down. I use kiln dried pine and the rats seem to like it as well. Untreated pine is toxic to rodents, so don't use it. When it's not dried, the oils are still in the pine, and the oils are dangerous.

I use America's Choice Eco-Flakes. I like it a lot compared to other wood shavings. The pieces are very small, and absorbs very well. I get mine at the local feed store for $6 for 3cu/ft

I used to use Pine pellets (wood stove pellets or horse stall pellets), but back when I was using it, I was using giant sterillite stand alone tubs, so it got really heavy for me to manage. It worked really nice to keep odors down and when it got wet, it broke down into sawdust.

Between the two, my rats seem to favor the Eco-Flakes. They were much more 'comfortable' and easier to nest. The pellets were hard and not as easy for them to nest.

Vanilla Extract works. At least for my rats, they do. I just do a couple drops in the 16oz water bottles, so I do a spoonful or two for the gravity feeders.


I haven't seen any difference, but I hear putting some baking soda under the bedding helps with the odor as well.

The most important part of keeping rodents is having good air flow. Air flow keeps the smell significantly lower compared to still stagnant air. Not to mention it will prevent ammonia build up and your rats from getting RI.
So I suggest keeping a fan or air purifier blowing in the same room with them at all times.

I got my watering system from Freedom Breeder, but I saved a lot because they're local to me. Reptile Basics also carries watering systems.

I suggest using a lab block such as Mazuri or Harlan to feed. They are specially formulated for breeding, nursing, and growing rats.

I’m using kiln-dried pine. The problem with “pine” is the presence of harmful phenols, naturally found in the wood. These volatile compounds have been known to cause respiratory problems, and even cancer. This is also why cedar shouldn’t be used (I guess it has a higher concentration of phenols than pine). When the pine is kiln dried, it is heated up and the volatile phenols evaporate out, rendering it safer (I wouldn’t say 100% of the phenols are gone, but less than if it was not kiln dried). Another option is aspen, which is a hardwood and doesn’t contain phenols. Aspen tends to be more expensive and less readily available though. For me personally I can’t use aspen because it causes my allergies to act up (pine does too, but to a lesser extent than aspen).

I have not had a lot of problem with smell. I clean out the bins once a week. As long as you are keeping them clean and not overcrowding them (the more rats in a bin, the quicker they’ll foul up the bedding), you shouldn’t have too much trouble with odor. Also… air circulation and venting are important to keep smell down.

For a watering system, I just bought the parts from Reptile Basics. If I’m remembering right, it cost me about $30 for one 6-bin rack. I didn’t buy their water reservoir, instead I’m using a flat-sided kitty litter bucket.

Windows really help with the smell. Yep, lots of open windows. And a few fans. And maybe some Airwick. Oh, and Fabreze is good.

Try feeding off all of the rats. That one always eliminates the smell. Good luck!

Thanx for all the help. I went to IFA and got kiln dried pine today and they had bags of Mazuri so got some of that also. Will look at the few websites you guys mentioned for the water system. Thank you for all the help.The racks are in my garage right now im goin to build a room in there where I can put a heater and fan system if it gets to cold my wife actually gave me permission to bring it in the house lol. She has never smelled a rat room :D But will just have to clean it more. Yea gonna also try not having to many more than i need if so will sell them off fast there is always people looking in my area for live since most breeders are in salt lake.

Just wanted to say I keep mine indoors, right next to a bedroom in fact. You really can't smell anything until you walk in. I'm not sure if it's because the temps are cooler or because my tubs are relatively understocked. But I have about 15 adults, 20 smalls plus babies in addition to 50 or so ASF. If you stick with a good cleaning regiment and add a fan, you can totally keep them inside with fairly low odors.

yea really wanted to do ASF but I dont know if it is just people around here's opinions or its that way everywhere but alot of people dont like to buy snakes that are on ASF's. Also where is the best thread about breeding? like numbers wise male to females and the ins and outs of breeding? I got some friends helping me that breed but like to read up also.

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

yea really wanted to do ASF but I dont know if it is just people around here's opinions or its that way everywhere but alot of people dont like to buy snakes that are on ASF's. Also where is the best thread about breeding? like numbers wise male to females and the ins and outs of breeding? I got some friends helping me that breed but like to read up also.

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I do 1 Male to 3 Females in my racks. Seem to work good for me, but may have to make a few more rack since Ive added some more snakes. As for the ins and outs for breeding....just let them do their thing. LOL. I guess Im not understanding what your asking. The male should breed to them.

LOL yea guess I asked for that one haha. like k so you do 1 male to 3 females do you rotate them? when the female is pregnant do you pull them and put them by themselves? then after they ween off the female do you pull them and keep them with other small rats? Just things like that I guess.

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

LOL yea guess I asked for that one haha. like k so you do 1 male to 3 females do you rotate them? when the female is pregnant do you pull them and put them by themselves? then after they ween off the female do you pull them and keep them with other small rats? Just things like that I guess.

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I like to keep my females either singly or with their mates, depending on if I have the room. If not, they stay with their roomies :) I have a huge tub that I put all my growouts in. It's a standalone tub about 4x2. I like having these ones so I can house a ton of rats if need be (which rarely happens to me lol)

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

LOL yea guess I asked for that one haha. like k so you do 1 male to 3 females do you rotate them? when the female is pregnant do you pull them and put them by themselves? then after they ween off the female do you pull them and keep them with other small rats? Just things like that I guess.

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I personally dont seperate my females when they are pregnant, I leave them in with the others. Every once in awhile I notice one or two come up missing but not enough to have to seperate them. I dont rotate them at all, every once in awhile I may feed off a adult and replace it with a younger one. But just remember if you feed off the male and put a young male in there it may take a little time for him to breed to the females. I have a rack with 6 tubs...3 females and 1 male to each, once the babies are ready to wean I pull them out to a large tank. Once they are old enough to sex I will seperate them, males to one tank and females to the other. They have been having between 20-30 babies a month in each tub for me.

Sorry for the delay, Im at work.

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

yea really wanted to do ASF but I dont know if it is just people around here's opinions or its that way everywhere but alot of people dont like to buy snakes that are on ASF's. Also where is the best thread about breeding? like numbers wise male to females and the ins and outs of breeding? I got some friends helping me that breed but like to read up also.

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The "ins and outs" will depend a little bit on what you want out of your rats and how long you want them to ask. For high productivity, keep males and females together, breed females back to back, and wean litters as soon as possible (around 3 or 4 weeks of age). This also means your females will wear out sooner and have to be replaced more often. You can also possibly keep fewer females by doing this.

For less productivity (but still productive, mind you), but possibly longer use of your females, you can rotate males between females, and give females short breaks in between litters. You don't necessarily have to wean early either, but can wait until 4-5 weeks. You would need more rats though.

For me personally... I'm giving my females breaks in between litters. I still have good productivity, but I'm keeping more rats, though my females aren't wearing down quickly either (I don't know how quickly they wear down with a high productivity breeding fashion, as I don't do that). Reproduction takes a toll on the female body, especially lactation. Large litters are, of course, more demanding than smaller litters, and thus will pull down females more. This can translate to females losing weight and condition, so you have to really make sure they are getting the highest quality food possible. There's a lot of emphasis on protein during pregnancy and lactation, but there's more to it than that. ALL nutrients need to be in balance and sufficient for adequate reproduction, and the right number of calories need to be offered (lactation can require 300-400 extra calories compared to maintenance, pregnancy doesn't actually require much in terms of extra calories or nutrition until the later stages right before parturition).

So any way... The way *I* personally do it (and talk to different people to find out how they do things and decide what you want to try out... if you try something and it doesn't work, you can always change your methods and try something else!):
I currently have 2 racks with 6 bins each. All of my bins aren't even full. I currently have 3 males (one of which might be culled if he doesn't start getting females pregnant...) and 10 females. I pair a male with 2 females at a time, every 2 weeks. I leave the male with the female for 2 weeks before separating them, and then separate the females into their own bins the last couple of days of that third week. Gestation is about 21-22 days, and I choose to keep litters separate instead of letting females raise their babies together, which is why I separate them in the last few days of the third week. I then wean babies at around 4-5 weeks of age, depending on how quickly they grow. The female then gets to rest as I rotate through my other girls, which generally gives them 1-2 months rest after babies are weaned. I don't keep girls from every litter, but I will keep those who catch my eye, or to replaced culled breeders (I have yet to have a female run down and be culled due to low productivity, but I have had to cull for other reasons - one female decided to start killing her 2 week old babies). Those young girls I do keep are allowed to grow up to 250 grams before I start breeding them. My snakes eat f/t or prekilled, so I just pull rats out and euthanise them as they get to the right sizes (required size depends on the snake being fed, I have rosy boas and ball pythons who will all eat rats, but they obviously require very different sizes!). I started my feeder colony in March, and so far this has been working well for me.

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Originally Posted by bruno21447

yea really wanted to do ASF but I dont know if it is just people around here's opinions or its that way everywhere but alot of people dont like to buy snakes that are on ASF's. Also where is the best thread about breeding? like numbers wise male to females and the ins and outs of breeding? I got some friends helping me that breed but like to read up also.

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ASFs are illegal in some States, like Georgia, so they are a little bit harder to find in regular reptile shops. And they're also a bit harder to find frozen online too. There is no reptile shop close to me that sell them. So, if you don't have your own ASF source, you have to switch your bp to rats. This is why a lot of people prefer bps on rats so they don't have to do the switching.

I breed ASFs because I only have 6 snakes and they sometimes go weeks without eating. I can keep ASFs as long as needed and they will not outgrow my bps.

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Originally Posted by anatess

ASFs are illegal in some States, like Georgia, so they are a little bit harder to find in regular reptile shops. And they're also a bit harder to find frozen online too. There is no reptile shop close to me that sell them. So, if you don't have your own ASF source, you have to switch your bp to rats. This is why a lot of people prefer bps on rats so they don't have to do the switching.

I breed ASFs because I only have 6 snakes and they sometimes go weeks without eating. I can keep ASFs as long as needed and they will not outgrow my bps.

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This is true. ASF are illegal in California too (where I live), which is why I breed rats.

wow thank alot of things to keep in mind thank you all for the input. and didnt know that about ASF's so learned something else new and that explains alot.

Well I am goin to pick up some rats sat and start them up.

This has been helpful to me as I'm in a similar situation. Rather than make a new post with the same title: What about using kitty litter? Are there contraindications to this?

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Originally Posted by anatess

ASFs are illegal in some States, like Georgia, so they are a little bit harder to find in regular reptile shops. And they're also a bit harder to find frozen online too. There is no reptile shop close to me that sell them. So, if you don't have your own ASF source, you have to switch your bp to rats. This is why a lot of people prefer bps on rats so they don't have to do the switching.

I breed ASFs because I only have 6 snakes and they sometimes go weeks without eating. I can keep ASFs as long as needed and they will not outgrow my bps.

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Help; what's an ASF?

ASF = African Soft Furs...and Kitty litter....no just no

Awesome thread. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks everyone.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I use America's Choice Eco-Flakes. I like it a lot compared to other wood shavings. The pieces are very small, and absorbs very well. I get mine at the local feed store for $6 for 3cu/ft.

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Nikki, where do you get these? Order and ship or a local store? I can get them at PetSmart but I have a feeling they are cheaper somewhere else.

Pete

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Originally Posted by Dr. Pete

Nikki, where do you get these? Order and ship or a local store? I can get them at PetSmart but I have a feeling they are cheaper somewhere else.

Pete

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I get them from various local feed stores in Northern California. I'm sure if you look at their site, you can see their distribution centers.