Scale-less BP photo!

Here it is....

And for everyone who thanks this post, you're welcome ;)

http://i43.tinypic.com/2z5ssj8.jpg

Scaleless BP produced by BHB

Wow...thats absolutely CRAZY!

I'm still not sure how I feel about this new morph line. Still its a pretty unique looking snake.

Thank you! He's so surreal. Almost looks like a sculpture.

Maybe my eyes are getting old and don't see as well.
I still do not see any visible heat pits!!

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

Maybe my eyes are getting old and don't see as well.
I still do not see any visible heat pits!!

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Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists :confusd:

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists :confusd:

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i think thats right? either way, i cant wait to see the crazy combos of this in the future.

:tears: :( :tears: no heat pits. there were rumours that the BHB scaleless would have heat pits :mad:

i dont see any signs of belly scales either.

my opinion was that if they do not have heat pits, i dont see a real future for the morph. but i expected them to have heat pits. really disappointing. that the optics are so nice makes it even more frustrating.

anyway thanks for sharing, i have been looking forward to see it, but its not what i expected.

EDIT: skin is intransparent to infrared. if there are no heat pits with depth, the directional infrared "vision" of the BP is gone. they will still feel warmth in front of their face, but its not directional anymore. kinda like closed eyes. all the precision is gone.

It looks good, but I agree with snakeman13. I don't see any heat pits...

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists :confusd:

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take a close look at a normal BP. They are pits, holes in their face to say.
I don't think that if you removed the scales on a normal BP, that the skin would be smooth.
I think there will still holes where the pits are.
Time will tell how much this will or will not affect him.

Hard to tell in the pic, but the nostrils don't look right either.... Will be interesting to see if they thrive or not.

Found this on wiki.... shows how the "heat pit" works. It's true, there should be a hole. So this snake doesn't have holes, therefore it doesn't have heat pits. huh.... *twiddles thumbs*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Pit_Organ.jpg

Gorgeous snake. I shall withhold my personal judgement until we see complications arise.

The clarity of the patterns is amazing but I'm with the rest I'm disappointed about the heat pits. I'm insanely curious to see how it effects the two snakes.

This is such an interesting genetic trait and it should be learned from and studied but I kind of hope it doesn't become popular in the industry. It really seems like there will be a few health/husbandry issues arising with them. I hope for BHB & the snakes sake that they are perfectly healthy though! It really is a beautiful animal.

It also looks like there isn't an ocular scale?? I wonder if that will lead to any eye complications.

Wow, thats beautiful

Yeah, the sneak-peek photo Brian put up didn't make it look like an ocular scale existed.

this seems to be the post 1st shed picture. the eyes look fine to me.


about the heat pits, i have this little video about the evolution of the eye. since we are talking about heat pits, look only at the first 3 steps explained in the video. and replace "light" with "infrared radiation", and "photo-sensitive cells" with "heat-sensitive cells".

also, only the first 50 seconds of the video are relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ

thats what is lost when you cover the heat pits with skin, which is intransparent to infrared. you reduce the heat-sensing ability from the third evolutionary step in the video, crude pinhole camera, to the first step in the video, which is merely detecting the presence or absence of infrared radiation.

i suspect it will be hard for them to hit their prey. blind BPs that have no problem with hitting their prey on first try show that the heat pits are what enables BPs to do so. worst-case scenario: assist feeding.

and in the image it really looks much like the deme ball, which means, heat pits completely covered. even at that angle, you should see 4 heat pits, but there is only smooth skin.

It looks really cool.... from the neck back. The head is just wrong. I love BPs for the way their adorable little heads look. This one just lacks the cute factor for me. Still cool that it was done, but I don't see it as a must have for me.

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I have to agree. The head just doesn't look right. The shape isn't right without the scales and the more I look at it the more the areas around the eye and the lips just slightly creep me out. I don't think "awh" like I do with all other hatchlings. I love the clarity of the pattern but I will never own a scaleless even if they become popular.

New is always scary. Let see how it goes. It`s just another morph, and its a nice one.

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Originally Posted by rafacacho

New is always scary. Let see how it goes. It`s just another morph, and its a nice one.

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This is NOT just another morph!
This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

This is NOT just another morph!
This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.

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Errrr....

The scaleless head came from the wild - this is just the superform. There is no reason to assume it hasn't happened in the wild or couldn't again in the future.

It's not like they made it in a lab.

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

This is NOT just another morph!
This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.

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It DID appear in nature. Brian handpicked the parents from an African batch of BPs that had scaleless heads.

" this is just the super form "

Exactly!
It was bred to produce the super.
What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
Can you calculate that high?

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

This is NOT just another morph!
This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.

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umm, adult scaleless snakes of 2 different species were discovered in nature, i dont remember the species because it was something venomous.

but i agree with the sentiment.... its a very very extreme morph. more extreme than the morph issues we are used to, like the occasional wobble or duckbill or eye issues. if these really always have the issue of missing heat pits and missing belly scales all the time, thats huge compared to other morph issues because it really affects the BP.

EDIT:

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" this is just the super form "

Exactly!
It was bred to produce the super.
What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
Can you calculate that high?

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the chances would not be too low, because BPs dont move around too much in nature. if a clutch with 3 or 4 scaleless heads hatches in the wild, chances that two of them would mate would not be too remote. depending on how often the mutation occurs and on the population size, stuff like that would appear and die out again maybe every few decades or every few centuries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

" this is just the super form "

Exactly!
It was bred to produce the super.
What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
Can you calculate that high?

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same as any recessive trait, which some have been found in the wild....

So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic?

"So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic? "

I am pretty sure it took a while for your snake, to learn to hunt for the dead prey by scent.
I am sure in the wild their prey is live.

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

"So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic? "

I am pretty sure it took a while for your snake, to learn to hunt for the dead prey by scent.
I am sure in the wild their prey is live.

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So everyone just jumping the gun assuming this snake cannot learn to eat without heat pits?
I'm pretty sure a majority of the morphs we have wouldn't survive in the wild, why is this even brought up?

Here is a different and larger pic that is now out. You can see the egg tooth if you save it and view it full size.

BHB says the animal has heat sensors, just no pits. He is also bringing at least one to NARBC Tinley Park next week for in-person viewing. Anxious to see it there!

I have been apathetic about the scaleless corns, and not a fan of scaleless beardeds, but I do like this iteration. Def lots of interesting visual possibilities!

Amazing can't wait to see combo's.;)

Do you think that Ivories or BELs would exist or even survive in the wild? Because the chances of these are the same as those scaleless ones.

Scaleless gopher snakes of different maturity levels have been observed in the wild. And there's no indication of more damage or injury to the scaleless gophers than their scaled counterparts. This means that they do survive.

Scaleless Texas Ratsnakes were housed in the Bronx zoo and researched. The research basically concluded that the lack of scales does not give any indication of handicap - they can still move as much as the scaled ones, they still retain hydration as much as the scaled ones, they can still thermoregulate as much as the scaled ones and they can still hunt prey as much as the scaled ones. Brian was one of the pioneers in the research of that breed which spilled over to the cornsnakes.

Now, these bp's, too early to tell. But, that's why we're excited about this bunch! Because, if there's anybody who would know, and more importantly... care, about the viability of these guys, it would be Brian.

I am not sure not having heat pits would be that big of a problem in captivity only time will tell. Either way that thing is freaking AWESOME.

Simply amazing!

Nothing against it, but it just doesn't do anything for me personally.

Looks like it came from "Toy Story"......

Ya genetic color mutations are one thing, but selectively breeding genetic deformities because it "looks pretty" is not what this hobby should be about.

Isn't it enough that we get to keep these beautiful creatures without "playing God" as many people say? And I will say this again, this is not a color mutation, it is a deformity. Meaning it is deformed from the normal "design" of the snakes physiology.

It would be on the same plain as breeding an animal without ears because it gives it that "slender, sleek look." It's more aerodynamic lol. This makes about as much sense.

I say stick to the pretty paint jobs and leave the anatomy and physiology alone.


Sent From an Enclosure

i guess it cannot be helped, certain breeders will work with them for a while, even if they have issues.

its now confirmed from several sources that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless head BPs for 210000 dollars. i guess he will want to recoup some of that money. so the cat is pretty much out of the bag. at the very least i would expect some scaleless head BPs to hit the market, and once these float around anyone can go for the fully scaleless.

leaving the "survival in nature"-thing aside, i wonder how much it will affect their ability to be a good pet. will they require higher maintenance, or more vet bills maybe? how will it affect movement? they use the belly scales for the straight forward crawling.

many questions. the optics are stunning, i wonder what a busy-patterned jigsaw would look like in scaleless. or a champagne. But im not very optimistic, i suspect they will be less good as pets because of issues or more intensive care.

Just like some high-end pedigree dog breeds do not make good pets anymore because they have all kinds of weird genetic issues.

But we will see, i want to see them crawl around and eat and get to age, then we will know.

one question i have not seen asked or answered anywhere is "does it have scutes, belly scales?" from the pics of bessettes animal (now deceased) it appeared to have no ventral scales. so does this one have ventral scales? and if not how will that change ur opinion of it.


rgds
ed

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Originally Posted by loxocemus

one question i have not seen asked or answered anywhere is "does it have scutes, belly scales?" from the pics of bessettes animal (now deceased) it appeared to have no ventral scales. so does this one have ventral scales? and if not how will that change ur opinion of it.


rgds
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we are still waiting for a picture showing it. but i am pessimistic.

all scaleless snakes that i have seen so far that still have their belly scales also have some remaining scales on their head and around the mouth. basically a band of scales goes along the belly all the way from mouth to tail. this BHB line scaleless ball python appears to not have a single scale on its head. The original deme-ball had a few random scales on the body, but also no scales on the head or lips, and also no belly scales. so i strongly suspect the whole body is scaleless and there will be no belly scales. but, well, a picture of the belly could still prove me wrong.

if a belly shot confirms the absence of belly scales, it makes you wonder how it looks when they crawl.

I've spoken with someone working there, they do not have belly scales.

so whats next in the scale of "acceptance because their captive and valuable", no tongue, no teeth, when does morph become cruelty....

its fast becoming "freakshow" instead of "hobby", u already have the clowns afterall.

rgds
ed

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Originally Posted by Artemille

I've spoken with someone working there, they do not have belly scales.

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What does it matter to though? It's not as if every snake in the hobby is suddenly going to become scaleless over night. Or ever, for that matter. It's quite small on the grand scheme of things.



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there used to be only one pinstripe, how many are there now?

ed

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

What does it matter to though? It's not as if every snake in the hobby is suddenly going to become scaleless over night. Or ever, for that matter. It's quite small on the grand scheme of things.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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It's the fact that the hobby is degrading to the point I accepting practices that at their given pace will allow sub dermal implants on snakes because it looks cool.

It's not the snakes that a person personally owns, it's treating the animals we keep with enough respect that they are interesting by their own merits, not what we can tweak into them.

Color morphs is one thing as I have said before, but changing a snakes anatomy because we can, or it looks cool, or it will make lots of money is the wrong direction entirely.

We already have a bad rap with the whole killer snake aggression thing, and the weirdos own snakes thing, all we need now is narcissism to come along with snake ownership.

When will the animals we keep be enough to keep us fulfilled? When can all this designer boutique crap stop? I'm all for a pretty snake, but let's put the bedazzling guns away people.


Sent From an Enclosure

If we are going to talk about Morality then perhaps we are all horrible people for keeping an animal that is clearly designed to live in the wild, not cages, tubs or tanks for no other reason but human decadence and sense of fulfillment.

If we want to talk logic, snakes in the wild live a real hard life, and there are likely just as many defects born out in the wild that we never see because they die off young and turn to compost real quickly. Every species has defective births.

If its okay to keep a snake in an enclosure rather than let it live in the wild (were they hail from) provided we give it what it needs to survive in captivity, why is it wrong to experimenting with breeding a the cost of a small percentage of defects? Again, defects are likely born into the wild and die off quickly anyway (I have no certain proof of this, but it seems very highly likely, but please correct me if I'm wrong).....

I don't know, I think its only cruel when the purpose of creating a potential defective breed is strictly for the purpose of taking joy in the animals misfortune.

Come to think of it, How many times do breeders get dead eggs, or snakes that die off relatively quickly after hatching that aren't scaleless?? How come that okay, but the second it scaleless we throw our hands in the air?

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

It's the fact that the hobby is degrading to the point I accepting practices that at their given pace will allow sub dermal implants on snakes because it looks cool.

It's not the snakes that a person personally owns, it's treating the animals we keep with enough respect that they are interesting by their own merits, not what we can tweak into them.

Color morphs is one thing as I have said before, but changing a snakes anatomy because we can, or it looks cool, or it will make lots of money is the wrong direction entirely.

We already have a bad rap with the whole killer snake aggression thing, and the weirdos own snakes thing, all we need now is narcissism to come along with snake ownership.

When will the animals we keep be enough to keep us fulfilled? When can all this designer boutique crap stop? I'm all for a pretty snake, but let's put the bedazzling guns away people.


Sent From an Enclosure

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Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right?

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and so speaks the voice of the modern hobby

such a shame really

ed

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by loxocemus

and so speaks the voice of the modern hobby

such a shame really

ed

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You and your soap box can get out of the hobby if it bothers you on such a high level.

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Originally Posted by loxocemus

there used to be only one pinstripe, how many are there now?

ed

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I did want to touch on this though, yes there used to be one pinstripe. Now, that doesn't mean YOU have to buy it. There are 7 snakes in my 8 snake collection that has nothing to do with pinstripes. The 8th? a pinstripe. One. Singular. I don't have all pinstripe combos. And if I hadn't had wanted a pin, I wouldn't at all.

So, you basically made a ridiculously ignorant comment that has nothing to do with scaleless ball pythons.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by loxocemus

so whats next in the scale of "acceptance because their captive and valuable", no tongue, no teeth, when does morph become cruelty....

its fast becoming "freakshow" instead of "hobby", u already have the clowns afterall.

rgds
ed

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I'm assuming you've never owned or been around purebred dogs before. I guess my giant headed, stumpy legged Scotties make me a freakshow now.

While I'm on my dog related soap box, these are like mastiffs to me. Good for you if they're what you're into, I don't think they're inherently good or bad (same goes for the people who bred/own them), but they don't do it for me.

Good grief guys!! We're going to end up with another thread locked here...