Best way to pre-kill?

Hi all, my first post here. Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I wasn't sure if I should post it here or in the feeder section.


I have two young ball pythons, they're both just under 200 grams, and so far I've been feeding them live rat pups every 5 days. However once they get bigger and move on to bigger prey I don't think I will still be comfortable with feeding live and risking injury. I can't do frozen/thawed because my boyfriend will not allow me to use our freezer (where we keep our frozen pizzas and things lol) to store them. Even though they are in bags it's still kinda gross. I don't really want to buy a separate mini-freezer to store the frozen rats because they're so expensive and it's not really worth it if I only have two snakes. My local store only sells live but will order bulk frozen for you - thus the storage problem. It's not possible to go by once a week and pick up two frozen rats.

So I'm interested in learning the best way to pre-kill, so I can still go by the store and buy live and just kill it immediately before feeding my snakes. I just want to know the most humane way for the rat and the least traumatic way for me. Thank you!

Depending on the type of store you buy your feeder from some will pre-kill for you.

Otherwise for 2 snakes cervical dislocation is likely what I would recommend, you can also use a small CO2 gas chamber but it would need to be VERY small for just 2 rats.

Once properly learned, cervical dislocation is quick and easy. However, not for the faint of heart.;)

I agree cervical dislocation is quick and once you get used to it it won't be so bad for you. A friend of mine start breeding rats recently and I've been helping him out. I've seen him do it 2-3 times now and I am finally getting used to seeing it. Honestly the worst part about it is hearing the pop from the spine breaking and certainly better than having to step in and help your snake after the fact.

side note here: Wizard your avatar freaks me out :O

if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

i think its more humane to use a gas that prevent such a CO2 buildup.

nitrogen or helium is much slower, but since there is no CO2 buildup they fall asleep peacefully.

optimal would be nitrous oxide / laughing gas. super fast and super painless, it knocks them out within a few seconds and they feel euphoria. you can cheaply buy single-use cartridges that are usually used in whipped cream dispensers. its legal to own as long as you dont use it as a drug.

edit @ tribal: i think its the mass murderer clown from the Rob Zombie movie "house of 1000 corpses"

Thanks for all of your responses. :)


Is there a guide or a video somewhere on how to do cervical dislocation? I think I could handle it if I saw how quick and easy it is. I'm just afraid I'd do it incorrectly and not kill the rat cleanly and it would suffer. I'll also look into gas, but I'm not sure how practical it will be for only a couple of rats. Thank you again!

Look online for the AVMA guide for euthanasia and the NIH guide for cervical dislocation.

I can try and upload the files when I get home

Cervical dislocation is something you need taught to you by someone who's done it a lot, imo. Even then, you will screw up at some point. It's going to happen.

Granted, my experience is with rabbits intended for human consumption. They have very powerful back legs which can make everything more difficult. It was not something I enjoyed. I imagine rats would be considerably easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opwXJ...has_verified=1

I agree, Captain Spaulding is one disturbing looking dood. I'm thinking of changing my avatar to something a little more kind and warmhearted.:P

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

i think its more humane to use a gas that prevent such a CO2 buildup.

nitrogen or helium is much slower, but since there is no CO2 buildup they fall asleep peacefully.

optimal would be nitrous oxide / laughing gas. super fast and super painless, it knocks them out within a few seconds and they feel euphoria. you can cheaply buy single-use cartridges that are usually used in whipped cream dispensers. its legal to own as long as you dont use it as a drug.

edit @ tribal: i think its the mass murderer clown from the Rob Zombie movie "house of 1000 corpses"

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Why are you always spouting this off? CO2 and Cervical dislocation are the only two methods approved by the vet boards for humane, in-home euthanization of small animals. You don't just pump in a killing dose of CO2 right away. You start off small and slowly introduce it. The rat will calmly fall asleep at which point you crank it up and kill the rat. No stress, no panic. Also, so far as I know... the whipped cream cartridges are also CO2.

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

Why are you always spouting this off? CO2 and Cervical dislocation are the only two methods approved by the vet boards for humane, in-home euthanization of small animals. You don't just pump in a killing dose of CO2 right away. You start off small and slowly introduce it. The rat will calmly fall asleep at which point you crank it up and kill the rat. No stress, no panic. Also, so far as I know... the whipped cream cartridges are also CO2.

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i keep saying it because from my personal experience of inhaling different gases, i can tell that CO2 is really nasty while other gases are not. Noone who has not actually tried inhaling different gases can convince me otherwise, sorry about that.

if you start slow, the rats will feel really terrible more slowly. also ive seen footage where you can tell the rhodents have cramps and convulsions and are panicking when CO2 is used.

it feels a bit like this looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf-kW1E0Tc :D

Flying elbow drop

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Originally Posted by pythonfriend

i keep saying it because from my personal experience of inhaling different gases

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wwhhhaaattt??~?? :o

So we are supposed to take advise from someone who huffs gas?? Hahahahaha funny.

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Originally Posted by interloc

So we are supposed to take advise from someone who huffs gas?? Hahahahaha funny.

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My thoughts exactly!!
Dear Lord....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

Pythonfriend: The air we breath is 78% nitrogen. I think it would take a ton to kill a rat with it.... Nikki and Tim have both provided evidence OF ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES that prove that gassing rats with CO2 IS humane. You're seriously calling these studies BS and trying to trump them with your own experience inhaling gasses? How are we supposed to believe you? Was any of this inhaling done in a remotely scientific way? If so, please describe. Also, last time i checked you were a human, not a rat. So i'm also doubting the validity of your findings and the fact that you're comparing them to rodents so freely.

Next time you go on a huffing kick, give CO a go. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Next time you go on a huffing kick, give CO a go. :gj:

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I'm fairly certain mike that we mustn't be telling people to go kill themselves. Why I agree with most of what you said, this last line is quite uncalled for. Say you're sorry mike.

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Originally Posted by interloc

I'm fairly certain mike that we mustn't be telling people to go kill themselves. Why I agree with most of what you said, this last line is quite uncalled for. Say you're sorry mike.

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CO can kill humans, maybe it can kill rats too? He already said he's huffed gasses, maybe he's already tried it. That could explain a few things lmao

Mice/rats are different than people in their gas sensing abilities. They do not react to a buildup of CO2, but to a lack of oxygen. That is why slowly cranking up the gas makes them freak out; they can feel the oxygen level decreasing, so they try and run.

People on the other hand are wired to detect CO2 levels. We begin to "freak out" when the CO3 levels are too high, not when the oxygen levels drop.

Moral of the story: slowly turning the gas up is actually more traumatic for the rodent than it may appear. The BEST way to administer the gas (and this is from actual experience with research animals, who MUST be killed 100% humanely) is to pre charge the container with CO2, then drop the mouse in. That way it goes from pure room air to pure CO2 instantly...thy are unconscious before they even hit the bottom of the container. The gasping breaths they take are stimulated by the brainstem AFTER they are unconscious; thus they are not feeling pain or suffering in any way.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

i think its more humane to use a gas that prevent such a CO2 buildup.

nitrogen or helium is much slower, but since there is no CO2 buildup they fall asleep peacefully.

optimal would be nitrous oxide / laughing gas. super fast and super painless, it knocks them out within a few seconds and they feel euphoria. you can cheaply buy single-use cartridges that are usually used in whipped cream dispensers. its legal to own as long as you dont use it as a drug.

edit @ tribal: i think its the mass murderer clown from the Rob Zombie movie "house of 1000 corpses"

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You have to stop this. There is enough misinformation floating around in this hobby - please stop deliberately contributing to it. Science proves this wrong - we've shown you the studies and the outlines written by organizations who don't huff gas but rather measure brain waves to determine how traumatic death is. Cervical Dislocation and CO2 are the only methods approved as humane. Depending on where you live improperly euthanizing an animal is illegal.

The forum guidelines on BP.net very clearly state that no member can wittingly post information that advises another member to break the law. As such, PLEASE stop making this post. I wish we had a 'science mod' that went through threads and deleted posts that contradict proven science or spread misinformation in the face of fact.




It's Captain Spaulding in the picture. I was him for halloween a few years ago - shaved head, beard, face paint, the whole nine. I was at a party that got busted by the cops and the cop started messing with me in a somewhat friendly way (cops in Boston have to break up Halloween parties when there's a complaint but they're not completely unreasonable about it). I responded with "DON'T YA LIKE CLOWNS? AREN'T WE BLEEPIN FUNNY?" - a quote from the movie. He didn't so much enjoy my back talk and I almost got put in cuffs...

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

i think its more humane to use a gas that prevent such a CO2 buildup.

nitrogen or helium is much slower, but since there is no CO2 buildup they fall asleep peacefully.

optimal would be nitrous oxide / laughing gas. super fast and super painless, it knocks them out within a few seconds and they feel euphoria. you can cheaply buy single-use cartridges that are usually used in whipped cream dispensers. its legal to own as long as you dont use it as a drug.

edit @ tribal: i think its the mass murderer clown from the Rob Zombie movie "house of 1000 corpses"

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Well..... at least you're not spouting off about using noble gases anymore.....
But seriously, did you not read any of the papers I linked to you the dozen other times you said C02 was the worst method of euthanasia?


If not, here they are again from that response.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Nitrogen, argon(a noble gas), and CO may be acceptable for euthanasia, but according to the University of Texas, "there is no clear advantages, which is why they are rarely if ever used."

If they and the other gases you listed were more effective and humane, then CO2 wouldn't be the standard gas of choice for euthanasia.
I work in a laboratory at one of the top research universities, not to mention the number one veterinary school in the US. I have euthanized a vast amount of rodents in the lab and at home with my own personal feeder colony. I have seen and done this first hand. CO2 is humane if administered correctly. Please refer to the IACUC and AVMA protocols for responsible euthanasia use. CO2 isn't used based on 'tradition'. CO2 isn't used just because it is fast. Euthanasia doesn't mean fast. Euthanasia is the act of inducing humane death in an animal by a method that induces rapid loss of consciousness and death with a minimum of pain, discomfort or distress..... It's used because it has been proven as humane method of euthanasia. (Equal or more so than other gases. However, they can be used in combination with CO2.)

Some studies that show adverse effects of Nitrogen/Argon euthanasia:

I. Joanna Makowska, Lee Niel, Richard D. Kirkden, Daniel M. Weary, Rats show aversion to argon-induced hypoxia, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Volume 114, Issues 3–4, 1 December 2008, Pages 572-581, ISSN 0168-1591, 10.1016/j.applanim.2008.04.005.



Burkholder TH, Niel L, Weed JL, Brinster LR, Bacher JD, Foltz CJ. 2010. Comparison of carbon dioxide and argon euthanasia: effects on behavior, heart rate, and respiratory lesions in rats. J Am Assoc Lab Anim Sci 49:448–453.


(MAP, mean arterial blood pressure)
According to the Journal of the American Association for Laboratory Animal Science, Volume 45, Number 2, March 2006 , pp. 21-25(5), they say that CO2 is effective for inducing unconsciousness and euthanasia. Ar appeared to be effective, but produced hyperflexia and tachycardia effects. They also concluded that N2 is not satisfactory for euthanizing rats or inducing unconsciousness in them.


Studies that show CO2 with no adverse effects:

Smith W, Harrap SB. 1997. Behavioural and cardiovascular responses of rats to euthanasia using carbon dioxide gas. Lab Anim 31:337–346. [PubMed]



Hackbarth H., Küppers N., Bohnet W. (2000). Euthanasia of rats with carbon dioxide – animal welfare aspects. Lab. Anim. 34, 91–96. doi: 10.1258/002367700780578055. [PubMed]


And another note, I've inhaled nitrous oxide for an oral surgery. It's probably a personal thing, but it did nothing for me. :\

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Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

It's jack Nicholson from the shining " here's Johnny "

I'm going to cut and paste my post from the DIY forum, since I appear to be the only one here who's actually had intentionally induced hypoxia in a controlled environment and knows what it feels like to have CO2 build up in my blood...



I'm going to skip over all the debate and add in a minor detail that I think may be relevant as far as CO2 goes. As military aircrew you have to do altitude chamber training regularly, most depressurization events are slow leaks (the kind you see in the movies is super rare) so it is essential to know (and be reminded at regular intervals) what hypoxia actually feels like so you can recognize it and respond appropriately. I'm assuming not many people have here have first-hand knowledge of what it feels like to actually be hypoxic.

Losing oxygen fast (we did practice that too) is pretty scary, you can feel your lungs straining and it is alarming. Slow leaks however are kind of fun. Everything in your brain slows down, things seem amusing for no reason. Your reactions slow dramatically, but it isn't alarming, more of an intriguing event that you somehow can't process. Eventually the fog gets thicker and thicker and you black out (or put your ox mask on and suddenly realize you were seeing in black and white only and didn't even notice).

I have no reason to think that rodents experience hypoxia any differently than humans, we're mammals with very similar biological processes. Thus I believe that CO2 is a humane method as long as it is done gradually. Just control the flow, however you chose to do it.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I'm going to cut and paste my post from the DIY forum, since I appear to be the only one here who's actually had intentionally induced hypoxia in a controlled environment and knows what it feels like to have CO2 build up in my blood...



I'm going to skip over all the debate and add in a minor detail that I think may be relevant as far as CO2 goes. As military aircrew you have to do altitude chamber training regularly, most depressurization events are slow leaks (the kind you see in the movies is super rare) so it is essential to know (and be reminded at regular intervals) what hypoxia actually feels like so you can recognize it and respond appropriately. I'm assuming not many people have here have first-hand knowledge of what it feels like to actually be hypoxic.

Losing oxygen fast (we did practice that too) is pretty scary, you can feel your lungs straining and it is alarming. Slow leaks however are kind of fun. Everything in your brain slows down, things seem amusing for no reason. Your reactions slow dramatically, but it isn't alarming, more of an intriguing event that you somehow can't process. Eventually the fog gets thicker and thicker and you black out (or put your ox mask on and suddenly realize you were seeing in black and white only and didn't even notice).

I have no reason to think that rodents experience hypoxia any differently than humans, we're mammals with very similar biological processes. Thus I believe that CO2 is a humane method as long as it is done gradually. Just control the flow, however you chose to do it.

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I agree with you and you are 100% correct. And disagree with Mephibosheth1.
The most humane Co2 administration is to go slow. Once they pass out, do a rapid release to euthanize.
Pre-charged or quick release of Co2 from the start is inhumane and causes the animals to panic/stress more. Suffocation while conscious is painful. Suffocation while unconscious is not.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I agree with you and you are 100% correct. And disagree with Mephibosheth1.
The most humane Co2 administration is to go slow. Once they pass out, do a rapid release to euthanize.
Pre-charged or quick release of Co2 from the start is inhumane and causes the animals to panic/stress more. Suffocation while conscious is painful. Suffocation while unconscious is not.

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This is why slow pressurization leaks at altitude are so insidious, stuff like this happens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 and you never even realize that something's wrong as you're suffocating. Honestly, having experienced hypoxia, it would be my death of choice if I had an option. You actually feel little bursts of happiness. My friends actually have several photos of me at Mauna Kea Observatory plopped on the ground smiling to myself (and possibly video of me trying to sing Janis Joplin to a soda bottle on the way back down). :oops:

death by CO2 has nothing to do with death by loss of oxygen.

its true, mammals cannot detect a drop in blood oxygen levels or atmospheric oxygen levels, mammals dont really know whats going on and then they pass out.

BUT MAMMALS ARE AWARE OF BLOOD CO2 LEVELS AND FREAK OUT COMPLETELY WHEN A RISE IN BLOOD CO2 IS DETECTED.

thats like suffocating in a room without fresh air. its also half of the reason why drowning is so terrible. you do feel that the air is getting bad, unbreathable, you get terrified, and suffocate in agony. that is all the response to blood CO2 level increase. its sneaky and undetectible only when you have a drop in blood oxygen levels WITHOUT corresponding CO2 buildup, like when a pressurized cabin leaks or on mount everest.

with CO2, its not like getting drowsy at low pressure or high altitude. you can have that for your rhodents if you use a noble gas or nitrogen. you cannot have that when CO2 is used. if you want to grant mammals a peaceful death by an undetectible drop in oxygen so that they peaceful pass out, you can use basically anything other than CO2 to displace the oxygen. hydrogen, nitrogen, helium, argon, whatever.

just inhale some CO2 already and tell me it feels just like one of these military pressure drop experiments, i dare you. the fact is it doesnt. you get that light-headedness drowsyness without fear and panic if you overdo it with breathing helium for funny voices. CO2 is totally different and just dreadful.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

This is why slow pressurization leaks at altitude are so insidious, stuff like this happens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 and you never even realize that something's wrong as you're suffocating. Honestly, having experienced hypoxia, it would be my death of choice if I had an option. You actually feel little bursts of happiness. My friends actually have several photos of me at Mauna Kea Observatory plopped on the ground smiling to myself (and possibly video of me trying to sing Janis Joplin to a soda bottle on the way back down). :oops:

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Quite interesting! Thanks for sharing. Although I think we need to see this video to fully appreciate the effects of hypoxia... :)

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

death by CO2 has nothing to do with death by loss of oxygen.

its true, mammals cannot detect a drop in blood oxygen levels or atmospheric oxygen levels, mammals dont really know whats going on and then they pass out.

BUT MAMMALS ARE AWARE OF BLOOD CO2 LEVELS AND FREAK OUT COMPLETELY WHEN A RISE IN BLOOD CO2 IS DETECTED.

thats like suffocating in a room without fresh air. its also half of the reason why drowning is so terrible. you do feel that the air is getting bad, unbreathable, you get terrified, and suffocate in agony. that is all the response to blood CO2 level increase. its sneaky and undetectible only when you have a drop in blood oxygen levels WITHOUT corresponding CO2 buildup, like when a pressurized cabin leaks or on mount everest.

with CO2, its not like getting drowsy at low pressure or high altitude. you can have that for your rhodents if you use a noble gas or nitrogen. you cannot have that when CO2 is used. if you want to grant mammals a peaceful death by an undetectible drop in oxygen so that they peaceful pass out, you can use basically anything other than CO2 to displace the oxygen. hydrogen, nitrogen, helium, argon, whatever.

just inhale some CO2 already and tell me it feels just like one of these military pressure drop experiments, i dare you. the fact is it doesnt. you get that light-headedness drowsyness without fear and panic if you overdo it with breathing helium for funny voices. CO2 is totally different and just dreadful.

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http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...1259858393.jpg

Refer to post #23.
When you are able to post scientific proof that counters my scientific proof, maybe I'll take your posts seriously. You keep saying use nitrogen or a noble gas over and over and over again like a broken record countless times for the past year. Well, I cited credible scientific sources that say Nitrogen and Argon are poor substitutes for Co2. In fact, it could be rather adverse to the animals.

Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.Refer to post #23.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

death by CO2 has nothing to do with death by loss of oxygen.

its true, mammals cannot detect a drop in blood oxygen levels or atmospheric oxygen levels, mammals dont really know whats going on and then they pass out.

BUT MAMMALS ARE AWARE OF BLOOD CO2 LEVELS AND FREAK OUT COMPLETELY WHEN A RISE IN BLOOD CO2 IS DETECTED.

thats like suffocating in a room without fresh air. its also half of the reason why drowning is so terrible. you do feel that the air is getting bad, unbreathable, you get terrified, and suffocate in agony. that is all the response to blood CO2 level increase. its sneaky and undetectible only when you have a drop in blood oxygen levels WITHOUT corresponding CO2 buildup, like when a pressurized cabin leaks or on mount everest.

with CO2, its not like getting drowsy at low pressure or high altitude. you can have that for your rhodents if you use a noble gas or nitrogen. you cannot have that when CO2 is used. if you want to grant mammals a peaceful death by an undetectible drop in oxygen so that they peaceful pass out, you can use basically anything other than CO2 to displace the oxygen. hydrogen, nitrogen, helium, argon, whatever.

just inhale some CO2 already and tell me it feels just like one of these military pressure drop experiments, i dare you. the fact is it doesnt. you get that light-headedness drowsyness without fear and panic if you overdo it with breathing helium for funny voices. CO2 is totally different and just dreadful.

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I do understand what you are saying, and agree to some extent with one key point. What you are talking about is acute hypercapnia, which you would induce by precharging the chamber with CO2 or pouring water on dry ice. I agree, that would be painful and inhumane. I am talking about inducing hypoxia through oxygen displacement and and slowly increasing blood CO2. You are correct that you could also induce hypoxia with other gases, and if you chose to use and have access other gases that have backing from the veterinary community I fully support your decision to do so.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I'm going to skip over all the debate and add in a minor detail that I think may be relevant as far as CO2 goes. As military aircrew you have to do altitude chamber training regularly, most depressurization events are slow leaks (the kind you see in the movies is super rare) so it is essential to know (and be reminded at regular intervals) what hypoxia actually feels like so you can recognize it and respond appropriately. I'm assuming not many people have here have first-hand knowledge of what it feels like to actually be hypoxic.

Losing oxygen fast (we did practice that too) is pretty scary, you can feel your lungs straining and it is alarming. Slow leaks however are kind of fun. Everything in your brain slows down, things seem amusing for no reason. Your reactions slow dramatically, but it isn't alarming, more of an intriguing event that you somehow can't process. Eventually the fog gets thicker and thicker and you black out (or put your ox mask on and suddenly realize you were seeing in black and white only and didn't even notice).

I have no reason to think that rodents experience hypoxia any differently than humans, we're mammals with very similar biological processes. Thus I believe that CO2 is a humane method as long as it is done gradually. Just control the flow, however you chose to do it.

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I'm giving you a gold star for sharing this. I find this very interesting.

See, pythonfriend, i TRUST something like this. "Experiencing hypoxia due to military training" and "ive tried huffing gases at home so i know what i'm talking about" are QUITE different.

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

Quite interesting! Thanks for sharing. Although I think we need to see this video to fully appreciate the effects of hypoxia... :)

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I was told it was deleted, but I doubt it really was. I'll ask her when she gets into work if she still has it. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'm giving you a gold star for sharing this. I find this very interesting.

See, pythonfriend, i TRUST something like this. "Experiencing hypoxia due to military training" and "ive tried huffing gases at home so i know what i'm talking about" are QUITE different.

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Thanks, it was actually pretty funny. I had to take my mask off and do some really basic puzzles with crayons, like "color this box purple." But since the cones in the eye are very sensitive to oxygen deprivation, I was only seeing in black and white after a few minutes (I didn't realize it though) and was basically scribbling green allover the page like a two year old and giggling to myself.

i can be stubborn :)

and i will be, unless you have some studies that show that a rise of blood CO2 levels does not feel terrible for humans. yes i want studies on human subjects that, unlike rats, can be asked about what feels how.

as a fine example of a mammal i say from personal experience CO2 is dreadful, and studies done only on rhodents wont convince me otherwise. thats the problem, you think i can be convinced that CO2 is not terrible based merely on carefully observing rhodents die from it.

think of it this way: someone got sentenced to death, in the gas chamber, and oddly enough is allowed to choose the gas. and asks for advice on what gas to choose. i would advise something that does not cause a feeling of being suffocated, let alone that amplifies it. that removes HCN and CO2 from the list.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i can be stubborn :)

and i will be, unless you have some studies that show that a rise of blood CO2 levels does not feel terrible for humans. yes i want studies on human subjects that, unlike rats, can be asked about what feels how.

as a fine example of a mammal i say from personal experience CO2 is dreadful, and studies done only on rhodents wont convince me otherwise. thats the problem, you think i can be convinced that CO2 is not terrible based merely on carefully observing rhodents die from it.

think of it this way: someone got sentenced to death, in the gas chamber, and oddly enough is allowed to choose the gas. and asks for advice on what gas to choose. i would advise something that does not cause a feeling of being suffocated, let alone that amplifies it. that removes HCN and CO2 from the list.

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Dude are you honestly illiterate? Badgesmash just posted about his MILITARY TRAINING EXPERIENCE with CO2 exposure.

You're not being stubborn, you're being utterly brainless.

I'm sorry to have caused an argument. :redface:


I tried cervical dislocation for my feedings yesterday, and I think it went ok. I'm pretty sure they died instantly. I used the method in the posted Youtube video (pressing its neck down with feeding tongs and pulling by the tail) because I thought it would be easier/better than doing it with my hands. It didn't require as much force as I thought it would, but that may have been because it was only a rat pup. I don't think it will be easy once I'm doing something bigger, though, but I guess I'll learn as I go. Might even figure out an alternate arrangement before then.

Thanks everyone for your help!

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I'm sorry to have caused an argument. :redface:


I tried cervical dislocation for my feedings yesterday, and I think it went ok. I'm pretty sure they died instantly. I used the method in the posted Youtube video (pressing its neck down with feeding tongs and pulling by the tail) because I thought it would be easier/better than doing it with my hands. It didn't require as much force as I thought it would, but that may have been because it was only a rat pup. I don't think it will be easy once I'm doing something bigger, though, but I guess I'll learn as I go. Might even figure out an alternate arrangement before then.

Thanks everyone for your help!

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If you are going to use cervical dislocation on small rats or larger, you'll need to hold both the tail and hind legs. If you hold only the tail, there's a chance it could deglove, meaning the skin is pulled off. This won't kill the rat (or at least not immediately), but would be extremely painful. Using the hind legs to help "support" the tail (for lack of better words) decreases the chance of a degloving.

Personally... I use CO2. For me, it's more foolproof (and thus more humane) than pure cervical dislocation. In my observations it does NOT induce panic and terror when done properly. In my observations, "properly" has been to slowly introduce the gas to the rats. They basically just fall asleep. If gas is introduced first or built up too quickly, there IS a panic reaction, with the animals showing absolute terror and clawing at the chamber to get out. (I found this out accidentally when doing batches of rats. Didn't realize there was still gas in the chamber when I introduced the next batch, and that's what happened. Never again will I do that.) With slow introduction, the rats fall asleep peacefully while sniffing around the chamber and exploring. A quick introduction of gas after that causes their final death.

Seems like cervical dislocation is probably the easiest method if you are going to do it one at a time for feeding, CO2 seems like it would be more appropriate if you were breeding feeder rats/mice or buying bulk live. Both methods seem to be pretty painless and easy, CO2 maybe a little more because you have to build a proper chamber, but not impossible. Seems like some members like to argue just for the sake of arguing. Reminds me of another member that is on time-out right now.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

i think its more humane to use a gas that prevent such a CO2 buildup.

nitrogen or helium is much slower, but since there is no CO2 buildup they fall asleep peacefully.

optimal would be nitrous oxide / laughing gas. super fast and super painless, it knocks them out within a few seconds and they feel euphoria. you can cheaply buy single-use cartridges that are usually used in whipped cream dispensers. its legal to own as long as you dont use it as a drug.

edit @ tribal: i think its the mass murderer clown from the Rob Zombie movie "house of 1000 corpses"

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No they don't. CO2 was the standard accepted practice to euthanize rats when I was in university. We had no "kill chambers" just our rats in clear plastic bags and CO2 cylinders. The rats did not become agitated at all, they got dopey, went to sleep and then ceased breathing. Low doses are known to cause agitated/fearful behaviour but the high concentrations showed none of this despite what some people "think" with never having had experience using it.
If carbon monoxide were more stable it would likely replace CO2 very quickly though.

EDIT: OH crap I hadn't noticed there were 4 pages of this.

Quote:

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if you use gas, i would advise against the use of CO2.

its rather quick, but when mammals detect a CO2 increase in the blood stream they react with panic and a feeling of asphyxiation before they die.

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Everyone you post there are always those long paragraph but I wonder is anything that you post ever based on hands on experience?

I am curious how many rodents have YOU euthanized this way?

Not what you heard, what you read, how many have you personally euthanized this way to come to this conclusion.

They key with Co2 is knowing how to do it. I have a pressure regulator and I can tell you they don´t react with panic. (That's based on MY experience of euthanizing 1000+ rats each year)

Now it is also one of the accepted method of euthanasia when it comes to rodents

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Doc...euthanasia.pdf AVMA guidelines starts at the bottom of page 48

http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/euthanasia.html#4 University of Minnesota

http://ora.georgetown.edu/guacuc/pdf...re-6-20-06.pdf Georgetown University

http://www.iacuc.ucsf.edu/Policies/awGlEuthR.asp University of CA

And I can go on, so bottom line YOU might not recommend it but then again it you.