When to buy a Banana

:banana:: When is a good time to buy with this market.. Do u think I should wait a while or go for it now..:banana:

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Originally Posted by RichieBoo

:banana:: When is a good time to buy with this market.. Do u think I should wait a while or go for it now..:banana:

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I'm not a big breeder, so I hope no one judges me like so.. But I'd say now is probably a time. You'll make the money back easily.. Bananna is a co-Dom mutation, yes they dropped dramatically this year but there at a point where they'll stay for a while., yes people will low ball the market and sell them for low amount to get a quick sale but the price will probably hold steady for at least another year or two. I'd say if you have the money you might as well jump in before they go below $1000 once they drop to a lower price I'm picking o e up. :)

Wait till next year to get a banana. prices on them are currently dropping like a stone. just a few months back 3-4k seemed a reasonable asking price and recently I have seen hatchlings for sale at $1500

if you get into it sooner, your financial risks are greater, but you will get in the black numbers sooner, your hatchlings will sell for more, you make more profit, and you will get into multi-gene combos and super bananas sooner.

if you get into it later, financial risks are lower, rewards are also lower, and you will be playing catchup with all the others that got into it sooner.

Mike Wilbanks explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYrHOBB5zoY

he is now the first breeder to buy scaleless head BPs from BHB and the second breeder after BHB to have a scaleless project... he paid an undisclosed 6-digit amount of dollars. i found out just a few hours ago.

"One thing I’ve learned about bananas is that there’s an art to purchasing them. It takes a certain amount of planning. Brainstorming. Conspiring." - from The Art of Buying Bananas by KB

Link to the full article: http://ktotheb.com/2011/how-to-buy-bananas/

This amazing work is almost two years old, but it still paves a four-step path that I'm sure you'll find useful even today. As popular as bananas have become, I'm shocked that KB isn't referenced more often for her incredible insight.

:)

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"One thing I’ve learned about bananas is that there’s an art to purchasing them. It takes a certain amount of planning. Brainstorming. Conspiring." - from The Art of Buying Bananas by KB

Link to the full article: http://ktotheb.com/2011/how-to-buy-bananas/

This amazing work is almost two years old, but it still paves a four-step path that I'm sure you'll find useful even today. As popular as bananas have become, I'm shocked that KB isn't referenced more often for her incredible insight.

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LOL, I actually read that entire article. I certainly hope I don't go through 42 every week when I finally decide to get mine.

My roaches love the bananas that are beyond ripe but just before rotting.

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

My roaches love the bananas that are beyond ripe but just before rotting.

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:rofl:

I've always liked these Bananas!
http://www.ohnuts.com/buy.cfm/bulk-c...FWZk7AodAhgAlA

Thanks for the help...

this thread got sidetracked a bit :)

i think if you have 3 females ready, getting a male banana may be very well worth it, sooner rather than later. a female banana can only produce one clutch at a time, so if you get a female things will move slower, but still. The prices will fall from season to season, but even when you start selling later when the price is lower, if you hatch clutches and produce good combos you will see the black numbers.

lets say you buy one for 1500-2000 now and start selling in 4-5 years because you hold them all back and do it slow, will the morph be down to 200? Nope, because these things are just too pretty. mass demand will kick in sooner. even if thousands are produced, i see the price getting stuck around 300-400 for a while. also you will produce multi-gene combos with banana, that also keeps the prices higher. So when you finally decide to sell, how many BPs in a price range between 200-600 dollars (or higher for nice combos) do you need to sell to get to black numbers when you now buy in for 1500-2000?

price decline bites when you dont get eggs. when you get eggs its rather meaningless.

Honestly, by next year they may be around $500 and if not then it will be by the following year.

Unless you've got a couple females you could breed to, I wouldn't invest until they're in the less than 500 range. Which, at this rate, will be March or so next year.

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I went ahead and picked up one this year. He will be perfect for some females that I will have come online in the next 6-8 months.

I agree that there WILL be a price shelf that they settle at. In the next 6 months it may actually become hard to find one if they drop to $1000. Demand will kick in to overdrive at a certain point. Also, females will now go for more than males from here on out, with the possible exception of a female maker male (you really never see those for sale).

Also now is a great time to shop not only the gene, but quality of pattern and depth of color. My boy is nice and reduced, and very bright. And it was nice that I had a few to choose from before picking him.

I think the better trend will be to put them with DARK morphs. The Leopard Banana, and Cinny Banana are just nuts! Also, getting them more in to recessive projects will be huge, and the later you start on that, well the later you are to the party.

I'd also love to add a banana to my collection, but with how rapidly prices are falling right now, I decided to just wait it out. I will be adding a codom clown male of some sort before I get a banana. Once I do decide to get one hopefully next year I will also be looking for a female-maker. Just my thought process.

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

I went ahead and picked up one this year. He will be perfect for some females that I will have come online in the next 6-8 months.

I agree that there WILL be a price shelf that they settle at. In the next 6 months it may actually become hard to find one if they drop to $1000. Demand will kick in to overdrive at a certain point. Also, females will now go for more than males from here on out, with the possible exception of a female maker male (you really never see those for sale).

Also now is a great time to shop not only the gene, but quality of pattern and depth of color. My boy is nice and reduced, and very bright. And it was nice that I had a few to choose from before picking him.

I think the better trend will be to put them with DARK morphs. The Leopard Banana, and Cinny Banana are just nuts! Also, getting them more in to recessive projects will be huge, and the later you start on that, well the later you are to the party.

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Banana Clowns, and Banana Pieds are awesome!

Banana and GHI are things I'll be picking up a few years from now after I'm a nurse. I don't have any use to buy males right now when my females aren't up to size, and when I can't breed now anyways. Hoping by that time GHI has dropped down to 2k or lower and that bananas have settled their price range.

That was very helpful.. Thanks for the help..

$1500 already? About 5 weeks ago we saw them at Daytona for $3-$4k! And already theyve dropped that much??? Jeez. I think by this time 2014, im gonna predict males will be going for $800 :(

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

$1500 already? About 5 weeks ago we saw them at Daytona for $3-$4k! And already theyve dropped that much??? Jeez. I think by this time 2014, im gonna predict males will be going for $800 :(

sent from my incubator

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I've seen some two go for under that even snake. One went for around $1000 at an auction and I seen one go for $1200 as well. I mean granted even that you can still make your money back if you breed to a few females but still.

My advice is if you want one and can afford it, buy it. If your in it just for $ I would suggest stocks and bonds;)

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Originally Posted by Neal

I've seen some two go for under that even snake. One went for around $1000 at an auction and I seen one go for $1200 as well. I mean granted even that you can still make your money back if you breed to a few females but still.

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I also know of a few going at this rate. I guess if you're going for recessives and have those females ready to rock, then you might as well go for it. Personally I'm not even going to bother with bananas, with the male maker issue I think in 3-4 years they're going to be as common as spiders are now. With the way they're getting churned out by everybody trying to make their money back they'll be available pretty cheaply in whatever combo you want.

The thing about bananas is that they are eye catching good looking snakes, even people who don't know anything about ball pythons are attracted to them. They will ALWAYS be in demand and you will always be able to sell them . Just look at albinos, selling albinos is easy and they've pretty much stabilized in price right around the $300.00 mark. I honestly don't see bananas ever going lower than that

I agree with Mark. If you want one, buy one. How could you not? Theyre just such gorgeous animals. :D

sent from my incubator

I offered an albino genetic stripe female in trade for a male coral glow a few months ago when they were going for 4000-5000. I am glad the breeder passed on that deal. I've seen prices drop on morphs before but I don't think this hobby has ever seen a morph drop so far so fast. With that being said I will still end up picking one up. They are just to cool not to have one.

I will probably pick one up this year. I agree though, get this animal because of how awesome they are...not for the money aspect. they are dropping fast, but I learned a long time ago...that is just how the market works. I buy the animals I like to work with, not the ones I think are going to make me the most money...they are awesome animals and I want one, so I am going to buy one now that they are not stupid expensive...and enjoy the heck out of having one in my collection, even if it never breeds...but we all know better than that, lol. if they are 500 next year, oh well...I am getting it for how awesome they look.

I just re-read my post from yesterday, sorry I came across so negative, I didn't mean to be a jerk.

I can't wait to get a banana!! But I am probably going to have to wait till next year. I want to start a banana cinny pied project!! I know that will be behind the curve a bit but from what it sounds the demand will still be there. And if not, I DON"T CARE! It will be so awesome to have a banana cinny pied in my collection.

I was at the reptile expo here in Houston this weekend. Only saw 2 bananas. Couldn't believe how the prices have tanked!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...s2275b60c.jpeg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...s8249b99d.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I also know of a few going at this rate. I guess if you're going for recessives and have those females ready to rock, then you might as well go for it. Personally I'm not even going to bother with bananas, with the male maker issue I think in 3-4 years they're going to be as common as spiders are now. With the way they're getting churned out by everybody trying to make their money back they'll be available pretty cheaply in whatever combo you want.

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But like others have said, they will still find a balance. This is how the market usually works, or it has in the past. Don't quote me on price as I'm just using a general price to give people an idea.

Brand new morph = $50,000
The year after = $20,000
The year after that = $10,000
The following year $3-4,000
The year after that $1,000, later that year $600ish
The following year $500 but could drop to $300, maybe even cheaper eventually depending on how many people breed them and want them gone versus how many people are willing to buy.
Once stock runs out and more people want them, price goes up to $350, then 400. Then eventually it'll level out.

Pieds and Albinos have held their price the best versus how long they've been out. I've watched a hidden gene woma BP drop from $7k to under $5k in a few months. It's all on how many are out there and who wants to move what. Then when the price drops below what the price finally stabilizes at is because people are in a rush to get rid of stuff instead of holding onto it.

Say a person has 4 snakes that he paid $10,000 for the breeder, well he's asking $6,000 for each of the babies and he sees that morph sell for $5,000 well he may panic and sell his for under $5,000 to move them to make his money back immediately or try and that's how the market starts to crash. If people would hold on to their animals and not fall with the market then the price wouldn't drop nowhere near as fast as it does.

A good instance is Bamboo's right now are at what, $20,000? By mid next year they'll be half of that. Depending on if their selling babies or adults for that much. If it's babies then maybe not half that but say it'll drop to around $15,000. Especially if the males are ready to go. Your larger breeders will get that bamboo male and hook it up to several females and that increases the amount of bamboos he has and gives different morphs and that's when you start seeing a slight price drop.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

if you get into it sooner, your financial risks are greater, but you will get in the black numbers sooner, your hatchlings will sell for more, you make more profit, and you will get into multi-gene combos and super bananas sooner.

if you get into it later, financial risks are lower, rewards are also lower, and you will be playing catchup with all the others that got into sooner...

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I agree!!!

My advice on Banana's that is consequently not my advice at all . . .

If someone offers you a frozen banana, and you're not in the mood . . . but may want a regular banana later. . . always say yes. :banana:

Bananas and stop lights are just the opposite of one another
- Bananas: Green means, slow down. Hold on! Just wait . . .
- Stop light: Green means, yes, go! Continue

- Bananas: Yellow means, Go ahead, enjoy a nice Banana!
- Stop light: Yellow means, wait, hold on just a second, this is not a good idea

- Stop light: Red means, Stop . . .
- Bananas: Red means, . . . where did I get a red banana??

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Originally Posted by Neal

But like others have said, they will still find a balance. This is how the market usually works, or it has in the past. Don't quote me on price as I'm just using a general price to give people an idea.

Brand new morph = $50,000
The year after = $20,000
The year after that = $10,000
The following year $3-4,000
The year after that $1,000, later that year $600ish
The following year $500 but could drop to $300, maybe even cheaper eventually depending on how many people breed them and want them gone versus how many people are willing to buy.
Once stock runs out and more people want them, price goes up to $350, then 400. Then eventually it'll level out.

Pieds and Albinos have held their price the best versus how long they've been out. I've watched a hidden gene woma BP drop from $7k to under $5k in a few months. It's all on how many are out there and who wants to move what. Then when the price drops below what the price finally stabilizes at is because people are in a rush to get rid of stuff instead of holding onto it.

Say a person has 4 snakes that he paid $10,000 for the breeder, well he's asking $6,000 for each of the babies and he sees that morph sell for $5,000 well he may panic and sell his for under $5,000 to move them to make his money back immediately or try and that's how the market starts to crash. If people would hold on to their animals and not fall with the market then the price wouldn't drop nowhere near as fast as it does.

A good instance is Bamboo's right now are at what, $20,000? By mid next year they'll be half of that. Depending on if their selling babies or adults for that much. If it's babies then maybe not half that but say it'll drop to around $15,000. Especially if the males are ready to go. Your larger breeders will get that bamboo male and hook it up to several females and that increases the amount of bamboos he has and gives different morphs and that's when you start seeing a slight price drop.

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Although I agree with your basic premise, I disagree with your examples. Pieds and albinos are recessives, they are harder to make. Bananas are a codom with the added bonus of producing bucketloads of males, which means anyone with an adult female normal can make more bananas (and more males). The male maker issue means bananas are uniquely vulnerable to price drops even without panic selling. I think pastels would be a better comparison morph for male bananas, female bananas however are a different issue. Pastels are easy to make, mixed with everything, and readily available at a fairly steady, low price point. I suspect you will see the same thing with bananas in 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

Although I agree with your basic premise, I disagree with your examples. Pieds and albinos are recessives, they are harder to make. Bananas are a codom with the added bonus of producing bucketloads of males, which means anyone with an adult female normal can make more bananas (and more males). The male maker issue means bananas are uniquely vulnerable to price drops even without panic selling. I think pastels would be a better comparison morph for male bananas, female bananas however are a different issue. Pastels are easy to make, mixed with everything, and readily available at a fairly steady, low price point. I suspect you will see the same thing with bananas in 5 years.

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I know they're recessives, but I'm saying out of all morphs that they're the ones that have held on to their value the best with how long they've been out. I was just using the Banana as a general example because the thread is based on that morph.

Even with clowns being cheaper with some sellers, Sean sells his for more. But this goes without saying that Sean produces the best clowns IMO hands down.

I'd buy one when you feel comfortable with the risk. You are not always going to hit the market at the right time.

Thanks everybody for the help. I am going to wait to I see the one I really like..

Let me ask this...

How does a banana help your own collection for its future? With the number of new projects and female holdbacks I have in my own collection, a banana just doesn't fit in. I don't have the time to produce bananas at this point, use up my females that are dedicated for new projects that will have legs for many years to come.

I think people forget.... When you invest into a ball python, you want holdback females that will expand and improve your breeding quality and odds in the future for different combos and to be there for new high end new genetics. Animals that when you feed rats, only gain value. I have hundreds of holdback females in my collection nobody in the world has, so I know as I feed them, they will only gain value.

At this point, I don't see the bananas really worth it for me to breed. It's something I've seen for many years to be honest. Males will continue to be worth less and less, and I feel females will always go hand in hand. Male deserts didn't keep value because they were viable? Females value dropping caused males to go down right along side them. I know viability vs. production isn't an accurate comparison, but the fact is, if a male banana is worth 100$ someday, is someone really going to spend 1000$ on a female? Male makers do make females occasionally, so I just don't see female value maintaining even if you have a female maker at this point.

So this is my point. What does a banana investment do to better your own collection for its future? Maybe it helps you more than me, so I'm curious to know.

I see it only being a great morph for the mass wholesale producers of the world. In which case, they are all going to focus on them as well. The fact production will continue to be exponential, I don't even think that gravy train will last as long as we would hope.

I honestly feel I've gained so much ground on breeders who have been doing this for many years because they were so focused on this project. I wonder how the overall value of their collections have taken a toll with the value of this mutation dropping.

Omg Rawbeh, those pics are hilarious!!!

sent from my incubator

I didn't get all 4 pages in, but I will say this:

Get in when the price point approaches one where you will be able to sell the snakes. I forget who wrote it up, I think Ben Renick, but he talks about strategies for breeding snakes. You could buy, breed, and sell lower priced snakes all day and make a good practice out of it. For me, with the presence I have and the experience and references and reputation I have, if I tried to sell a $1000+ snake I would have it sit in my rack till it was a $500 snake. I think this is a lot of the reason the price on banana dropped so fast. More people in the market thinking they can make a quick investment out of the gates and become rich because they see high priced snakes. They go out and buy a banana for 10k, breed it to 10 normal females, and when they have 15 bananas and can't sell them for 5k a pop they panic and try to recoup their costs - sell them at 1500 a pop and they have a hard time finding people to trust them even with that.

Buy new breeders in anticipation of the pricepoint of animal you will be comfortably able to sell by the time you breed it.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I didn't get all 4 pages in, but I will say this:

Get in when the price point approaches one where you will be able to sell the snakes. I forget who wrote it up, I think Ben Renick, but he talks about strategies for breeding snakes. You could buy, breed, and sell lower priced snakes all day and make a good practice out of it. For me, with the presence I have and the experience and references and reputation I have, if I tried to sell a $1000+ snake I would have it sit in my rack till it was a $500 snake. I think this is a lot of the reason the price on banana dropped so fast. More people in the market thinking they can make a quick investment out of the gates and become rich because they see high priced snakes. They go out and buy a banana for 10k, breed it to 10 normal females, and when they have 15 bananas and can't sell them for 5k a pop they panic and try to recoup their costs - sell them at 1500 a pop and they have a hard time finding people to trust them even with that.

Buy new breeders in anticipation of the pricepoint of animal you will be comfortably able to sell by the time you breed it.

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This also points out something else - people are buying males and stamping them to 10-15 normal girls or however many girls he'll breed. Then producing a decent number of Banana's in their first 2 years of the investment. When this happens we overcrowd the market causing prices to drop due to a demand drop. Prices then continue to drop for fast sell, competitive pricing, etc. . . it's a vicious cycle. At today's price points, even with one clutch, I imagine that a Banana investment will still realistically make its money back in one clutch if you use the right female (Bee female perhaps? that's pretty basic but will do great things if the odds are in your favor).

Sorry - but just wanted to point out that while yes it may be because reputation is not good - I've bought from people that I've only seen one review of, and spent some fairly good money and got great snakes. People will buy at high end pricing if the snake is right as long as the breeder can show they are on the right. But again, the bigger take home is people buy a male, and mass produce the single genes with their normal girls, and then demand goes down as market quantity goes up.

I just think they look bad ass and nothing like any other single gene animal (besides the Coral Glow, I know) and considering the $4-5000 price a few months ago, I felt like $2k was a fair price so I got one. Sure, it's good to look at the return value but in this case, it's a super exotic looking snake and worth 2k as a super exotic pet IMO. It can't always be about the money...

If you're going to buy a male, I'd want to have a lot more females up to size to be available next year to pair with it than it appears you currently do. But in the long term you're sure to see the return on your investment.

I think BigIan said it best...They look mint.... im loving the Spider Banana..

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Originally Posted by BigIan

I just think they look bad ass and nothing like any other single gene animal (besides the Coral Glow, I know) and considering the $4-5000 price a few months ago, I felt like $2k was a fair price so I got one. Sure, it's good to look at the return value but in this case, it's a super exotic looking snake and worth 2k as a super exotic pet IMO. It can't always be about the money...

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Precisely right! Ive seen people spend $3500 on bulldog puppies so they can have a kewl badass pet. Personally, id rather have the banana :p

sent from my incubator

I think this gene is super pretty when combined with pied. That is a project I hope to pursue in the future, and sooner rather than later!

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ral-glow-pied/
:banana::banana::banana:

Holy wow!! I'm liking the banana combos a lot!!

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