Is there a point to having normal ball pythons? + breeding question

Hi all, so i have a male super pastel ball python i just picked up, he's still tiny however, and i also have a male cinnamon. I'm picking up a female mojave this week and the breeder is gonna give me a free male ball python, is it even worth it to take it? i'm just wondering breeding wise what is the use for having a normal?

also, should i breed my super or cinnamon to the mojave when she is ready? or are there any other cheaper morphs (less than 500) you guys think i should pick up to pair with the mojave?

thanks :)

Female normals are very useful but males not so much. I would pass on it personally if you are looking at it for breeding. Plus you are already male heavy according to your post.

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Originally Posted by Tribal

Female normals are very useful but males not so much. I would pass on it personally if you are looking at it for breeding. Plus you are already male heavy according to your post.

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what would female normals be used for?

Normal males have little use in breeding.. I myself have teo normals malea that are joth lovely pets but breeding no.. unless you want a pet i would pass. I will say though my second favorite snakes behind my Albino Retic is my normal males BP. Look beyond the snakes as just breeding toola or mobey makers and remember they arr life lobg pets that just need some love. :)

Not bashing you, please don't takw it that way... I just thibk to maby keepers are blinded hy a quick buck and breedibg only that they forget why we loce this hobby

female normals would be great for adding new blood to projects and strengthening the line. they are also good for doing incomplete dominant and dominant projects with. they are also good for using when you want to make just hets...say if you have a dominant animal that is also a visual recessive animal, and you don't want to make the dominant trait visible in your hets...so in other words, to breed traits OUT of certain projects. a normal female has many uses in any breeding projects. I think they are under utilized honestly...but one of the biggest uses is simply strengthening bloodlines by adding new and fresh blood lines. too much inbreeding can and does cause problems, and normals can help that a lot.

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Originally Posted by rickm

female normals would be great for adding new blood to projects and strengthening the line. they are also good for doing incomplete dominant and dominant projects with. they are also good for using when you want to make just hets...say if you have a dominant animal that is also a visual recessive animal, and you don't want to make the dominant trait visible in your hets...so in other words, to breed traits OUT of certain projects. a normal female has many uses in any breeding projects. I think they are under utilized honestly...but one of the biggest uses is simply strengthening bloodlines by adding new and fresh blood lines. too much inbreeding can and does cause problems, and normals can help that a lot.

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x2

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Originally Posted by zeion97

Normal males have little use in breeding.. I myself have teo normals malea that are joth lovely pets but breeding no.. unless you want a pet i would pass. I will say though my second favorite snakes behind my Albino Retic is my normal males BP. Look beyond the snakes as just breeding toola or mobey makers and remember they arr life lobg pets that just need some love. :)

Not bashing you, please don't takw it that way... I just thibk to maby keepers are blinded hy a quick buck and breedibg only that they forget why we loce this hobby

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all two of my ball pythons i've raised from babies as pets, which is why i have males, i wasn't ever planning on getting into breeding until recently. I agree they are wonderful pets, i've yet to be bitten by both of them :)

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Originally Posted by rickm

female normals would be great for adding new blood to projects and strengthening the line. they are also good for doing incomplete dominant and dominant projects with. they are also good for using when you want to make just hets...say if you have a dominant animal that is also a visual recessive animal, and you don't want to make the dominant trait visible in your hets...so in other words, to breed traits OUT of certain projects. a normal female has many uses in any breeding projects. I think they are under utilized honestly...but one of the biggest uses is simply strengthening bloodlines by adding new and fresh blood lines. too much inbreeding can and does cause problems, and normals can help that a lot.

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makes sense! thanks

:gj: glad I could help

instead of saying things like "Female normals are very useful but males not so much" or "Normal males have little use in breeding", i would go one step further and say:

never breed normal males because it makes sense to breed genetically more powerful males to genetically less powerful females. i cannot think of a single situation where breeding a normal male makes sense.

if you can get a free normal female, take it. combos like jigsaw, bee, or pewter, can produce more jigsaws, bees, or pewters, when bred to just a normal female.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

instead of saying things like "Female normals are very useful but males not so much" or "Normal males have little use in breeding", i would go one step further and say:

never breed normal males because it makes sense to breed genetically more powerful males to genetically less powerful females. i cannot think of a single situation where breeding a normal male makes sense.

if you can get a free normal female, take it. combos like jigsaw, bee, or pewter, can produce more jigsaws, bees, or pewters, when bred to just a normal female.

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Breeding to a normal male might be useful in cases where there is an unproven female morph. The only way to prove it out would be to pair it with a normal. :)

so... they aren't COMPLETELY useless, but I sure won't be keeping any around :P I have enough "useless" single gene males! lol

Breeding, no. But if hes giving you the normal male free, id say take it...cuz you can take it to your local pet shop n trade it in for feeders.

sent from my incubator

Females are good to have because they produce the babies.

A good breed to the mojo would be another mojo or even a lesser or butter

In the past I have kept and bred normal males. Then again I was breeding normals for local pet shops and that was a very large part of my income at the time. A male can be used as a breeder if you choose to do so just keep in mind that he will not be genetically awesome like a multi gene male would be. I for one will be keeping normal males in the future but that is a different story all together and for a project of my own.

I have a normal male that I will probably plug into a female or two in the future. I like his pattern and hope to tie that into some of my projects. Unlike a female who can only be bred once per year a male can get the job done several times over. It's a good way to quickly add diversity to your gene pools as you're able to plug him into several projects in the same year. I would never count out a normal male just because it's normal and a male - they have other things to bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Breeding to a normal male might be useful in cases where there is an unproven female morph. The only way to prove it out would be to pair it with a normal. :)

so... they aren't COMPLETELY useless, but I sure won't be keeping any around :P I have enough "useless" single gene males! lol

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that is not entirely correct, in the case you describe i would go for a male super.

like a super pastel or super lesser or ivory or super fire.

this way you can still tell if the dinker does something genetic or not, because a super male to a normal female produces uniform clutches, and you can also check if it interacts with a known gene complex :D


EDIT: if the male is a very promising dinker its a different story. otherwise, breeding a normal male really does not make sense. breeding him into many projects in just one year makes even less sense, you could do that with a powerhouse 5-gene male instead.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

that is not entirely correct, in the case you describe i would go for a male super.

like a super pastel or super lesser or ivory or super fire.

this way you can still tell if the dinker does something genetic or not, because a super male to a normal female produces uniform clutches, and you can also check if it interacts with a known gene complex :D

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True, but if you are trying to single out a mystery gene a normal male can still be of use. You need to be able to properly identify the new "single gene" before you go selling off your brand new "proven" gene IMO.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

that is not entirely correct, in the case you describe i would go for a male super.

like a super pastel or super lesser or ivory or super fire.

this way you can still tell if the dinker does something genetic or not, because a super male to a normal female produces uniform clutches, and you can also check if it interacts with a known gene complex :D


EDIT: if the male is a very promising dinker its a different story. otherwise, breeding a normal male really does not make sense. breeding him into many projects in just one year makes even less sense, you could do that with a powerhouse 5-gene male instead.

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no offense, but you seem to think every body has the same goals as you, and that the only male you want breeding is one of superior genetics than a female. not everyone has the same goals or reasons for breeding. I have seen like six or seven posts where you make the 'males must be genetically superior or multi gene animals' comment. while I agree with this for most breeding, it may actually be foolish if you are shooting for diversifying your blood lines or breeding for only certain morphs. I think some of the morphs are honestly stupid, because they have so many genes in them that you cannot even see half of them, what is the point in that, other than someone wanting to brag that their animal has more genetics....? I don't get it. some of the five, six, and seven gene combos are so washed out and bland, that I honestly don't see how the breeder can even say for sure what is in the animal....

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Breeding to a normal male might be useful in cases where there is an unproven female morph. The only way to prove it out would be to pair it with a normal. :)

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This is what I came to say. With other genes thrown into the mix, it's really hard to tell if you've got anything special going on or not. All three of my normals are pets, but depending on the female, I would use one of the males to prove out her genetics, or pick up another male that better fits her coloring and then just sell him after the season ends if she's proved out. They serve no other purpose genetically, unless you're looking to line-breed for a certain trait.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

that is not entirely correct, in the case you describe i would go for a male super.

like a super pastel or super lesser or ivory or super fire.

this way you can still tell if the dinker does something genetic or not, because a super male to a normal female produces uniform clutches, and you can also check if it interacts with a known gene complex :D


EDIT: if the male is a very promising dinker its a different story. otherwise, breeding a normal male really does not make sense. breeding him into many projects in just one year makes even less sense, you could do that with a powerhouse 5-gene male instead.

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You say my statement isn't correct, yet you follow it up with an opinion.

There is no right and wrong here. If you want to breed a male normal then go for it. I am just presenting a hypothetical scenario in which a normal male might be useful for a breeder.

I doubt Brian Barczyk bred his first sunset ball python to a super like you describe. That wouldn't make any sense for him. He wants to single out ONE gene to determine if its genetic.

It would be very silly to try and prove out a new genetic mutation with a super animal. That is just my opinion, clearly yours differs. That does not make either of us CORRECT or INCORRECT.

Just to say it outright here. There is no correct answer because to each person there is a different one. To me normals are extremely useful to others they are useless. They say I am wrong and I say they are wrong but in reality neither of us are right or wrong. I have used normal males to make brighter babies to raise up to breed to things like pastel or lesser and I have used other males to make dark babies to breed to the darker morphs. Some would say I "wasted" those females but my end results were awesome at the time so I feel as though I did the right thing. In the end it is up to each person to do what they want to do and what they feel right. Saying someone is wrong on what they want to do when it comes to breeding is pointless and extremely counterproductive unless the outcome is known for a fact to be bad for the offspring and not just a guess based off of no facts what so ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Breeding to a normal male might be useful in cases where there is an unproven female morph. The only way to prove it out would be to pair it with a normal. :)

so... they aren't COMPLETELY useless, but I sure won't be keeping any around :P I have enough "useless" single gene males! lol

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Or if you have five gene female, pair to a normal male to prove it out.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

instead of saying things like "Female normals are very useful but males not so much" or "Normal males have little use in breeding", i would go one step further and say:

never breed normal males because it makes sense to breed genetically more powerful males to genetically less powerful females. i cannot think of a single situation where breeding a normal male makes sense.

if you can get a free normal female, take it. combos like jigsaw, bee, or pewter, can produce more jigsaws, bees, or pewters, when bred to just a normal female.

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Like others say, breeding to a normal male can help isolate genes the female carries. Sometimes it's hard to see certain genes in multi gened animals. A breeder can isolate those multi genes into single gene offspring to see what the female genetics are.

Cross Exotics has the supposed "citrus pastel desert" and has bred her to a multi gened animal(s). None of the offspring are single gene deserts, while he has labeled certain multi gened offspring to contain desert. I personally cannot believe that his female is a "citrus pastel desert" without seeing any single gene desert babies. So in this case, breeding her to a normal male will be helpful, which Cross Exotics is doing next season. That way the offspring are only normals, deserts, and citrus pastels. It would be easier to ID a single gene desert than one in a 4 gene combo.

And some normal males are beautiful. Certain ones are great for selectively breeding even superior snakes.
Many 'dinker' projects are males. A clean bright reduced normal male can clean up ugly pastel girls for example.....

For me personally, normals will be MORE necessary when in 2017 we have 10-12 gene quad recessive animals and we're trying to see what's going on.

That, to me, is necessary now with even five genes because how do you actually know it's got all five?

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Most have already said what I was thinking. Normal bps male or female will always be a necessity especially as time goes on and more genes are added to different morphs. There may not always be a steady supply of normal imports, those doors can decline and or close at anytime. With every one or most people concentrating on morphs that will eventually boost the price as well as demand for normals for the same reasons mentioned before. A lot of inbred or concentrated genetics in morphs that need new blood, or just to isolate certain traits. Males and females can do that, in this case males much sooner than females. If you have a few females ready to breed it only takes one male to do the job can't say the same the other way around.