Good&bad news, force feeding the only option left?

As you might remember I've had these baby balls who haven't taken f/t. They are captive bred and have been fed live. Most of them have been doing great, but two are doing not so great. Well, after two months of not eating, one of them finally took a f/t fuzzy (I decided to try the soap wash thing, and it worked, seemingly) and fifteen days after that he took a crawler without hesitation (also washed). He seems to be going into a good feeding mode, I'm giving him five days now to digest this slightly bigger meal and then offer some more. He was skinny, but otherwise fine. These babies are still very small and were very small when I got them, only about six weeks. Now they're three months old.

One of them had a nose rub when she got here and she just got weaker and weaker. I went away for a week, after trying to offer her food, and when I got back she had died. I've never had a snake baby die on me before, and I don't know if it was because of weakness she died or what. I kept her in a rubbermaid with two hides, the temp gradient from 77-95, humidity around 60%. She never pooped with me, so I can't say if she had parasites; however, that would be unlikely, since she was captive bred, but then again, she'd gotten live mice...?

So, there's one non-eater left. And the problem was, as you might remember, that it's not possible to get live mice for feeding here, therefore I got myself a pair of mice and started breeding them. I didn't know that the babies had only eaten live, and most of them have switched to F/T without problems, except these two. Well, now I've got a stock of fuzzies and crawlers. And a few minutes ago I offered a live fuzzy to the one boy left, but he showed no interest in it! He's very skinny and I'm starting to get really worried. He has been moving, though, so he can't be THAT weak. He has plenty of hides and the same conditions as the others. Is it a vet case already?

On a happier note, my own girl Cecilia is doing great. She has a great appetite and is very curious.

Non eaters can be soooo much fun :)
You could try is splitting the skulls of the mice to give a little more scent.... another option is dipping them in chicken broth to scent them..... check the temp of the mice to make sure they are warm when offering..... try a live rat pink to see if the activity draws a feeding response then after it gets good and ready to eat swap out the prey items. Those are just some ideas... it sounds like you have things pretty well covered but sometime all it takes is an idea to put one off in a direction they might not have thought of.

I've tried the braining... A live mouse should be both stimulating in scent and activity, yet he took no interest in it. The chicken broth is something I haven't tried. Thanks for your help!

I need more opinions!! I'm really concerned about the poor guy :,(

Don't try feeding too often (4 day minimum); feed in a dark, secure box or his own enclosure made darker and more secure (towel over the top, etc.); leave absolutely, completely, entirely alone between feeding attempts (no peeking at temps, no changing water, nothing); understand that sometimes you lose some despite your best efforts and intentions. I hate to say that last part, but it's true. Good luck to you.

There's been a week between the feeding efforts and I've only changed his water and paper towels. I noticed the humidity had gone up; it's very humid here during the summer, and it was around 70%, so I did some changes to his tank and now it's around 50-60%. It goes up and down though, during the last hour it's been from 49-63. There's not much I can do about it. I moved his tank to the kitchen (I live in a one room apartment, with a separate kitchen), maybe it's a little bit calmer there. His tank is covered with black paper on three sides, but the top is quite see-through and lets in some light as it consists of plastic mesh, to keep the humidity right. I'm thinking I could take him to the vet just to make sure he hasn't got parasites - it's not impossible. On the other hand, would the trip be too stressful? But I suppose it's better to make sure, anyway. The vet isn't very far away, and she's specialized in reptiles. But at least he's moving around his tank, not exactly roaming or hunting but going from one hide into another. He's not just lying in one spot. And he's drinking, too. I know there's always the possibility that he won't make it, as I just lost one of them that hadn't eaten either. I'm still hoping for the best.

Can you explain the 'soap wash' method that you mentioned, I've never heard of it....

Good luck w/the little guy, I hope he pulls through.

A vet trip is definitely stressful for the snake, but at least she could give you a good assessment of his condition and let you know if there are any health reasons for him to be refusing food. Good luck!

Am I the only one thats heard of assist feeding?
You don't shove the food down the throat, but you place it in the snakes mouth, and let it take it down.
Thats what the reptile shop did with my baby! :shock:

No, you're not the only one who's heard of it. Generally, assist feeding and force feeding should only be done by very experienced keepers or after a vet's recommendation and demonstration. It is stressful for the animal and can make them less likely to feed voluntarily and more likely to regurge. That said, sometimes it's the only way to get them to eat and should be done.

I had my first bp go for at least 4 months without eating ( thats as long as i had him before i got him, dont know about before that ). In that time he did not shed, but continued to make regular bowel movements. It finally got to the point after 4 months that he shed and then he ate. I really dont think a bp can starve itself to death. I would only force/assist feed if my reptile's life was in danger

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Originally Posted by Marla

No, you're not the only one who's heard of it. Generally, assist feeding and force feeding should only be done by very experienced keepers or after a vet's recommendation and demonstration. It is stressful for the animal and can make them less likely to feed voluntarily and more likely to regurge. That said, sometimes it's the only way to get them to eat and should be done.

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So the Reptile Shop shouldn't be assist feeding my ball?
My ball is a baby, only about a month old.
Last week the baby did eat itself though, without assisting.

I can't tell you whether the shop's keepers are experienced enough, but if I had to make a guess, I'd say no, they shouldn't be assist-feeding, especially with a month-old baby.

Assist feeding was what I meant, but it would also be very stressful for him and I've never done it. I wonder what the other baby died of then, if not starvation? She had a nose rub, but was otherwise normal. She'd probably ever eaten once or twice in her life before me getting her, and hadn't eaten for two months. She didn't have RI either and as far as I know the chance of parasites would have been very slight... That's why I'm so worried about this snake, don't want the same to happen to him. He's probably also only eaten a few times in his life.

The soap wash method was something I heard of on another forum. You just wash the prey item with some perfumeless soap to make it smell less dead. Don't know if that's the reason he took it or if he had other reasons, but the important thing is that he ate...

I think your plan to take the snake to the vet is a very good one. There are numerous possible reasons that it may not be eating and it's difficult to really assess condition by description and photos. It could have parasites or a sore in its mouth or a problem with its trachea or any of a hundred or so other reasons not to eat, including of course the standard stress. You have made every reasonable effort, it seems, and don't want to lose another one. If you're lucky, it will be something treatable (like a mouth sore) and if not, she may still have some helpful ideas for you.

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Originally Posted by Marla

I can't tell you whether the shop's keepers are experienced enough, but if I had to make a guess, I'd say no, they shouldn't be assist-feeding, especially with a month-old baby.

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Well the shop itself is a Reptile Shop with 90 percent Reptiles 10 percent Exotics just as "Skunks" and "Suger Gliders" ...
Okay, I'll make sure next time I go to the pet shop for her to eat they won't assist feed her ... since shes being switched over to frozen/thawed this week. First I thought they were educated about BPs ... but sadly I'm starting to doubt it.

He told me my setup needed only one hide and a water dish.
Whats even worse he told me I needed to turn on my Sun Glo 50W bulb during the day and turn it off at night ... He didn't even bother what the temp in my house is ... The temps in my house get low as 70.
THANK GOD I FOUND THIS FORUM, otherwise I would never go out and buy a heat pad, you guys should be proud you saved a BP.

I recently found a small red bump coming out my BPs mouth, I'll ask them exactly what the bump is ... which I highly doubt they'll know ... so I'll be going to the vet right after.

Yup, sounds like a vet trip is in order. Some reptile shops are really good and some are really bad. Most tend to be on one extreme or the other for some reason. There's a shop very close to my home that is absolutely awful that's about 45% reptile, 45% rodent, and 10% other critter, and another shop several miles further that's about 90% reptile that's absolutely excellent and even has hots on display. If you are informed enough, though, you can figure out which are which and work from there.

Can I ask why you're going to the shopkeeper to feed her instead of doing it at home? Or is she still there and you haven't brought her home yet?

Well the main reason I take her to the shop is because shes my first ball ... (eats every sat) ... I took her there because they told me she needed to be assist feed ... This sat I'm bringing her there to show them the red bump ... and to switch to thawed ... but I'm probably going to skip a feeding so I can bring her to a vet first ...

Not to be picky, but that's a lot of moving to be doing after a feeding. I'd start feeding her at home if I were you, but definitely have the vet check out the bump, which could be the beginnings of mouth rot, first.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Not to be picky, but that's a lot of moving to be doing after a feeding. I'd start feeding her at home if I were you, but definitely have the vet check out the bump, which could be the beginnings of mouth rot, first.

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Yeah, I'm bringing her one last time to the Reptile Shop to ask them what the bump is (then off to the vet) ... and to get some frozen mice ... What should I be feeding her at about a month and a half ... shes about 12-14 inches ...

Usually you guage the prey size by feeding your snakey a rodent that's about the same size as the thickest part of her body.

What Cody said, but at that size, generally small adult mice are going to be just the ticket. :)

I have heard that fircefeeding can actually be more stressful to the snake than going without food, and it can lead to regurgitation. If I were to resort to it, I;d get some of that liquid food from a vet and use that; I guess they feed it via needleless syringe.

I'm going to take him to the vet anyway; he didn't go for a live week old mouse today although I waited for 30-45 minutes. Had to whack the poor mouse myself. I hate doing that.

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Assist feeding was what I meant, but it would also be very stressful for him and I've never done it. I wonder what the other baby died of then, if not starvation?

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I know this may be offensive, but not all babies are born to live. sadly many snakes do not make it, even with the best of husbandry.

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Am I the only one thats heard of assist feeding?
You don't shove the food down the throat, but you place it in the snakes mouth, and let it take it down.
Thats what the reptile shop did with my baby!

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Not so much a good idea, and as Marla pointed out that is way to much moving around. I wonder if they (the petstore) knew the snake wouldn't eat on it's own before you bought it, that may be why they offered an assist feeding. When force or assist feeding many times the snakes' teeth become damaged and can at times become loose and cause a nasty abscess in the animals mouth.

I hope this may help.
Rusty

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Originally Posted by Rustysdragons

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Assist feeding was what I meant, but it would also be very stressful for him and I've never done it. I wonder what the other baby died of then, if not starvation?

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I know this may be offensive, but not all babies are born to live. sadly many snakes do not make it, even with the best of husbandry.

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Am I the only one thats heard of assist feeding?
You don't shove the food down the throat, but you place it in the snakes mouth, and let it take it down.
Thats what the reptile shop did with my baby!

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Not so much a good idea, and as Marla pointed out that is way to much moving around. I wonder if they (the petstore) knew the snake wouldn't eat on it's own before you bought it, that may be why they offered an assist feeding. When force or assist feeding many times the snakes' teeth become damaged and can at times become loose and cause a nasty abscess in the animals mouth.

I hope this may help.
Rusty

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Hey Rusty, I have a question ... how soon do ball pythons start eating by themself? Do they ever need to be assist feed?!

I think I can answer that. In all the knowledgeable sites I've read in the past 3-4 months(80-90% of that knowledge being from this site..thanks everyone :D) preparing for a ball python, I've always read that they can feed on their own right from the start. I mean, in the wild who would be there to "assist feed" them? lol. So yeah, usually right after they come out of the egg, you wait until they shed, then try offering them a prey item. You don't have to assist feed them. They already have the instinct to strike and coil and stuff. So next feeding time, don't bring him to the reptile shop or anything for feeding. Just thaw a mouse real good, put it under a light for a few minutes to up the body temp a bit so the snake will recognise it easily with its heat pits, and it should take it.(if it already hasn't been turned off from feeding with the "assist feeding" thing. :()
Hope that helps at all. And sorry if you just wanted Rusty's advice. I know Rusty's the best for the pro advice. I'm just a newbie. ;)

I know that out of a litter not everyone survives, but this was not my litter, I got them from a Swedish breeder. I got so many at once (16) that there might have been a couple of "rotten eggs" in there, as they were indeed very young and perhaps not that well started when I got them. But most of them have been doing great, and these two were just the smallest ones who perhaps aren't "supposed" to survive. I've prepared my mind for his possible death, but I still have hopes, let's see what the vet thinks.

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but I still have hopes, let's see what the vet thinks.

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Please let us know what happens with the vet visit. I also hope these guys pull through for you.

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Hey Rusty, I have a question ... how soon do ball pythons start eating by themself? Do they ever need to be assist feed?!

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Normally (From my experience) Bp's hatch and averagely within 7 days they have their first shed. Then they will begin to hunt. Of course that is only an average, there are always exceptions.
In certain situations an animal may need to be assisted in feedings. I would never recommend doing this without a properly trained vet to either do it for you, or instruct you in person.
Hope this helps
Rusty

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Originally Posted by firedragon

I've prepared my mind for his possible death, but I still have hopes, let's see what the vet thinks.

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Definitely think positive! Keep us updated, i'm pullin for the little guy.

Well I'm back from the vet but I think I'm going to make a whole new thread about what she said.