Breeding loan

I know many people are against breeding loans, and if you are go ahead and state your reasoning why. No need to be rude though, I understand the risks involved and am looking for feedback on my contract. If you think I should add/change/remove anything please let me know what and why you think that.



I, Leslie *****, will hand over my male hypo hog island boa (hypo bci x hog island bci) AKA KENAI to James ****** by December 1^st 2013 as a temporary breeding loan for his normal Columbian bci female.

Kenai is a docile boa, but if for any reason James is injured by my snake, I am not held liable.

James guarantees that his female is 100% healthy. If that turns out not to be true and Kenai contracts a disease or illness from the female then James will be held liable. This includes illnesses such as IBD and other contagions. This does not include things such as tumors or abscesses as they are not contagions.

I guarantee that Kenai is 100% male. I guarantee his genetics. I guarantee that Kenai is 100% healthy, with no illnesses or diseases, and has no mites. He has no scarring on his body and sheds in one full perfect piece every time.

If Kenai were to become ill or injured because of lack of care or neglect then James will be held liable. This includes burns from an uncontrolled heat source. If Kenai were to contract mites while in James’s care then I will provide the correct medication and instructions.

James will be in control of the breeding, and while Kenai is not with the female he will be provided proper caging, heating, feeding and cleaning.

I will provide enough frozen medium rats for the duration of Kenai’s stay. Kenai will be fed one medium rat every 10 days, unless he refuses food. At that point James will try feeding again at the next 10 day period and no sooner.

If Kenai were to become ill or injured, James will immediately take him to a local exotics vet, and immediately contact me. I will reimburse any and all vet costs. If the amount of that were to total over $200 then I must receive another call before moving forward.

Kenai will receive a “break” from the female for at least 4 days out of every 2 weeks. That entails moving him into a separate appropriately sized enclosure with proper heating feeding and cleaning.

If for some reason James can no longer take care of Kenai then the breeding loan has ended and Kenai will come back into my care.
James will update me periodically on how the process is coming along and will consult me if any problem arises.

Kenai will stay with James until his female is 100% without a doubt gravid. Kenai may stay with James up until the female gives birth if that is preferred by either party. If after 1 year (by December 1^st 2014) no babies are produced then this breeding loan is nullified and Kenai will immediately come back into my care.

Once babies are born they will immediately be removed from the mother by James and placed into a second container with proper heat and humidity. If it is decided that James will hold onto the babies until they are feeding well (up to 2 months post birth) then each baby must be given a separate enclosure. If it is decided I will start the babies then they will be given to me at any time after the birth but no later than 2 weeks post birth.

If the female slugs out then I am not held liable and both parties walk away with nothing. If only 1 baby is produced then either I keep the baby or James pays me the amount of the value of that baby. If only 2 babies are produced then James will have the pick of which one he wants to keep and I will get the other.

If more than two babies are produced James will have pick of the litter, UP TO two babies. Any and all babies besides James’s two picks will be my property and I will have full ownership.

Because of Kenai’s genetics, ALL babies will be 25% hog island boa. Approximately half of the babies will be hypo, and the other half normal. This is not guaranteed because of the variability within probability.

By signing this contract, both parties are bound in agreement to the terms listed here.


________________________________________
Name Date


________________________________________
Name Date

I would add a quarantine period of at least 60 days for both the sire and dam before breeding, and while being paired they should remain isolated from any other snakes as well.

I would state that Kenai is not to be paired with any other females.

I would specify which exotic veterinarian(s) are to be contacted if emergency treatment is needed, but I'm lucky enough to have several available and I do have preferences.

It's a great idea to have a breeding loan contract but without it being notarized and both parties signing, it's rather pointless unless for your comfort.

I know this because my friend loaned his sister a fair bit of money and had her sign a contract to pay him back and how much a month it was going to be. It was notarized and all but she never paid him back and there wasn't even much he could do. So while I wouldn't write up a contract personally but I would only do a breeding loan with a select few people that I trust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

I would add a quarantine period of at least 60 days for both the sire and dam before breeding, and while being paired they should remain isolated from any other snakes as well.

I would state that Kenai is not to be paired with any other females.

I would specify which exotic veterinarian(s) are to be contacted if emergency treatment is needed, but I'm lucky enough to have several available and I do have preferences.

---

My bad I forgot to mention quarantine will begin immediately (today). But I completely forgot to add that into the contract and that the pair should be isolated and that he will not be bred to any other females, thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

It's a great idea to have a breeding loan contract but without it being notarized and both parties signing, it's rather pointless unless for your comfort.

I know this because my friend loaned his sister a fair bit of money and had her sign a contract to pay him back and how much a month it was going to be. It was notarized and all but she never paid him back and there wasn't even much he could do. So while I wouldn't write up a contract personally but I would only do a breeding loan with a select few people that I trust.

---

I could get it notarized, I just didn't even think about that. When my girlfriend loaned her horse (loaning from someone else) the contract was similar to mine and hadn't been notarized. Was that a mistake on their part?
I don't TRUST the guy because I don't know him personally, but he is part of a local reptile group and I have a hard time seeing him breaking the contract.
His only reason that he wants to do this is because he wants one of his girls' babies, and not for profit.

I don't think this guy will do anything funny, but that's why I wanted it all written out Just in case. If it was notarized vs not notarized, would that make a big difference if the contract was broken?

I've had documents notarized before but never something I've written myself. Does it work the same way though? It doesn't matter that it's not an official document?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

I could get it notarized, I just didn't even think about that. When my girlfriend loaned her horse (loaning from someone else) the contract was similar to mine and hadn't been notarized. Was that a mistake on their part?
I don't TRUST the guy because I don't know him personally, but he is part of a local reptile group and I have a hard time seeing him breaking the contract.
His only reason that he wants to do this is because he wants one of his girls' babies, and not for profit.

I don't think this guy will do anything funny, but that's why I wanted it all written out Just in case. If it was notarized vs not notarized, would that make a big difference if the contract was broken?

I've had documents notarized before but never something I've written myself. Does it work the same way though? It doesn't matter that it's not an official document?

---

It would hold up more as not forged, but I think both parties would have to be present. But I'm saying legally I don't think there is much you'd be able to do if he decided to keep your snake. I don't mean to make you hesitant, but I just wanted you to know this in advance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

It would hold up more as not forged, but I think both parties would have to be present. But I'm saying legally I don't think there is much you'd be able to do if he decided to keep your snake. I don't mean to make you hesitant, but I just wanted you to know this in advance.

---

Technically, wouldn't that be a breach of contract, especially if it's notarized? In the event of a breach of contract doesn't that make it eligible to be brought to the court of law?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

Technically, wouldn't that be a breach of contract, especially if it's notarized? In the event of a breach of contract doesn't that make it eligible to be brought to the court of law?

---

Yea, but find a court of law that will honor that. Then that's only if they don't disappear and if they're in another state you can most likely forget about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

Yea, but find a court of law that will honor that. Then that's only if they don't disappear and if they're in another state you can most likely forget about it.

---

You are bringing up good points, thank you.

He's local, but if he was to cut and run, not only would that be breach of contract but that would be considered theft. I would not be against taking them to small claims court.

I will be meeting him and his family, his home and their set up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

You are bringing up good points, thank you.

He's local, but if he was to cut and run, not only would that be breach of contract but that would be considered theft. I would not be against taking them to small claims court.

I will be meeting him and his family, his home and their set up.

---

I'd make a video of everything just to add an additional layer of security and have everything notarized as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

I'd make a video of everything just to add an additional layer of security and have everything notarized as well.

---

By video do you mean a video of going to their home? I've been documenting all written communication and will want anything said written as well.



If anyone is curious, here is Kenai. First is him in dark phase and the next in light phase. I love that hog island influence in him.

http://imageshack.com/a/img833/2898/idmp.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img571/2813/n19p.jpg

I mean document meetings, video with faces and that it's only a loan and document the signing of the contract along with him reading it aloud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neal

I mean document meetings, video with faces and that it's only a loan and document the signing of the contract along with him reading it aloud.

---

Okay I will take that into consideration. Thank you a bunch for you input

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

Okay I will take that into consideration. Thank you a bunch for you input

---

It's no problem. I'd want the same said to me if I was doing it. Fortunately for me my Mojave girl will be going stay with a really reliable person when she gets to size :P I hope all works out well for you though.

Breeding loans can be done successfully, but the most important in my opinion aside from the piece of paper is picking the right person to do a loan with.

If you have a contract which I recommend (also I never use one with the loans I have made) everything need to be in writing from who gets what, to who is responsible in the event the animal must go to a vet or even dies. (The more details the better)....how long of a at period, what happen if the female does not go that season, should the breeding stop and the animal be returned or should the animal stay another season.

It is also important to communicate during the loan, does not mean people should get an update each week, but updates on how the animals are doing whether or not they are eating, when they are building, ovy etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Breeding loans can be done successfully, but the most important in my opinion aside from the piece of paper is picking the right person to do a loan with.

If you have a contract which I recommend (also I never use one with the loans I have made) everything need to be in writing from who gets what, to who is responsible in the event the animal must go to a vet or even dies. (The more details the better)....how long of a at period, what happen if the female does not go that season, should the breeding stop and the animal be returned or should the animal stay another season.

It is also important to communicate during the loan, does not mean people should get an update each week, but updates on how the animals are doing whether or not they are eating, when they are building, ovy etc

---

I changed this part around a bit. I hope it is clear enough and detailed.



If Kenai were to become ill or injured, James will immediately take him to a local exotics vet, and immediately contact me.

I will reimburse any and all vet costs as long as James is not the one held liable. If Kenai were to become ill or injured because of lack of care or neglect then James will be held liable and will be responsible for vet costs. This includes burns from an uncontrolled heat source.

James guarantees that his female is 100% healthy. If that turns out not to be true and Kenai contracts a disease or illness from the female then James will be held liable. This includes illnesses such as IBD and other contagions. This does not include things such as tumors or abscesses as they are not contagions.

If the amount of a vet visit were to total over $200 then I must receive another call before moving forward.



Also added this paragraph

Kenai and the female will both be quarantined separately for at least 60 days. After that they may begin breeding but are to be kept separate from the rest of James’s collection. Kenai will not be bred to any other females except the one discussed in this contract.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Breeding loans can be done successfully, but the most important in my opinion aside from the piece of paper is picking the right person to do a loan with.

If you have a contract which I recommend (also I never use one with the loans I have made) everything need to be in writing from who gets what, to who is responsible in the event the animal must go to a vet or even dies. (The more details the better)....how long of a at period, what happen if the female does not go that season, should the breeding stop and the animal be returned or should the animal stay another season.

It is also important to communicate during the loan, does not mean people should get an update each week, but updates on how the animals are doing whether or not they are eating, when they are building, ovy etc

---

I'm pretty sure I covered all those points (written in my first post). I put a one year deadline and if babies are not produced by then, then the loan will end.
I put that I need periodic updates on how the process is coming and also contact me if problems come up. I will make it more specific though as to what type of updates I want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Breeding loans can be done successfully, but the most important in my opinion aside from the piece of paper is picking the right person to do a loan with.

If you have a contract which I recommend (also I never use one with the loans I have made) everything need to be in writing from who gets what, to who is responsible in the event the animal must go to a vet or even dies. (The more details the better)....how long of a at period, what happen if the female does not go that season, should the breeding stop and the animal be returned or should the animal stay another season.

It is also important to communicate during the loan, does not mean people should get an update each week, but updates on how the animals are doing whether or not they are eating, when they are building, ovy etc

---

That's why I <3 you Deborah. You're an awesome person :P

You should be more specific on the males genetics. For proper in enclosure for the hatchlings, be specific on the size, and husbandry. You might want to add a foul play claws, insuring that you do not fall victim if let's say 4 out of 4 eggs hatch but you are told only 3 did and the dead one was discarded. Insure you get a correct clutch count and lay eyes on all hatchlings, alive or not. That's what I would add.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oombootoo

You should be more specific on the males genetics. For proper in enclosure for the hatchlings, be specific on the size, and husbandry. You might want to add a foul play claws, insuring that you do not fall victim if let's say 4 out of 4 eggs hatch but you are told only 3 did and the dead one was discarded. Insure you get a correct clutch count and lay eyes on all hatchlings, alive or not. That's what I would add.

---

Doubt anyone is gonna get eggs on that one :rofl:

As for husbandry cage size and such, I think it is a bit pushy, when doing a lone with someone I would expect that the person knows how to keep animals in an optimal manner however it does not mean that they have to keep their animal the exact same way I do.

I have/had animals from 4 different people this season and they do not keep their animal the way I do, for example I do not provide a hot spot during most of the year while they do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oombootoo

You should be more specific on the males genetics. For proper in enclosure for the hatchlings, be specific on the size, and husbandry. You might want to add a foul play claws, insuring that you do not fall victim if let's say 4 out of 4 eggs hatch but you are told only 3 did and the dead one was discarded. Insure you get a correct clutch count and lay eyes on all hatchlings, alive or not. That's what I would add.

---

Good idea on being more specific on my males genetics. I was able to contact his breeder and discovered he came from a hypo hog female x super salmon jungle male, alone with pictures of them breeding and also the birth of my male.
That's a good idea about the foul play. I didn't think about that because the guy is wanting 1-2 babies for strictly pets. But I guess if he got dollar signs in his eyes later down the road then it would be a good idea to cover that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Doubt anyone is gonna get eggs on that one :rofl:

As for husbandry cage size and such, I think it is a bit pushy, when doing a lone with someone I would expect that the person knows how to keep animals in an optimal manner however it does not mean that they have to keep their animal the exact same way I do.

I have/had animals from 4 different people this season and they do not keep their animal the way I do, for example I do not provide a hot spot during most of the year why they do.

---

I feel that way too. Before even considering this loan I asked about his husbandry practices and it seems A-OK to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Doubt anyone is gonna get eggs on that one :rofl:

As for husbandry cage size and such, I think it is a bit pushy, when doing a lone with someone I would expect that the person knows how to keep animals in an optimal manner however it does not mean that they have to keep their animal the exact same way I do.

I have/had animals from 4 different people this season and they do not keep their animal the way I do, for example I do not provide a hot spot during most of the year why they do.

---

Not saying to be anal, but expectations are not what you are looking for with a loan. You want some sort of guarantee that the worms will be taken care of the way you know they should be or else there would be no need for legal documentation in the first place. What I have done is asked what size enclosure the BP's would be crept after hatching, and what they keep their temps/humidity and if I find it adequate i simply put that in the contract using all the numbers they give me. Can't argue if you know your doing it right. People abuse the right to breed ball pythons everyday, I just don't want to fall victim to their possible ignorance or purposeful neglect. Not trying to be pushy. I just like to cover my basis. All things considered a contract is based on how all parties involved believe things should be done, and an agreement is made listing how all parties will play there role weather it's through their own practices or approved practices of all parties.

Quick update: found out the guy lives right by my parents and is a family friend of sorts. I just didn't remember him

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oombootoo

Not saying to be anal, but expectations are not what you are looking for with a loan. You want some sort of guarantee that the worms will be taken care of the way you know they should be or else there would be no need for legal documentation in the first place. What I have done is asked what size enclosure the BP's would be crept after hatching, and what they keep their temps/humidity and if I find it adequate i simply put that in the contract using all the numbers they give me. Can't argue if you know your doing it right. People abuse the right to breed ball pythons everyday, I just don't want to fall victim to their possible ignorance or purposeful neglect. Not trying to be pushy. I just like to cover my basis. All things considered a contract is based on how all parties involved believe things should be done, and an agreement is made listing how all parties will play there role weather it's through their own practices or approved practices of all parties.

---

All of this goes hand in hand with knowing the person and trusting the person. It's not like you're going to do a breeding loan with somebody you don't even know anything about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

Quick update: found out the guy lives right by my parents and is a family friend of sorts. I just didn't remember him

---

That's great. I'm glad that it's even more good news for you.

I originally thought his female was a normal, but after seeing her I knew she wasn't. Had him dig up the receipt and turns out it's an aberrant line female. So hopefully we'll get some aberrant hypos, and hopefully the 25% hog will show through.

Also found out Kenai is specifically salmon line of hypo.

I'm pretty excited

The contract looks pretty decent IMO. However, I do think it should be more in your favor, because you have everything to lose and he has everything to gain from this. I am also just a few minutes south of you and if I can help in any way just let me know! PM sent as well

If I were James I'd want something in there about what time of day you can come over to inspect things, and how much notice you have to give. For instance, if I were him I would not be happy with you banging on my door at 2 a.m. if you had a nightmare about Kenai getting hurt or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin

The contract looks pretty decent IMO. However, I do think it should be more in your favor, because you have everything to lose and he has everything to gain from this. I am also just a few minutes south of you and if I can help in any way just let me know! PM sent as well

---

Hmm I thought I had written it so that it's mainly in my favor? I basically wrote it to protect my butt in every way I could think of. He is also my sisters good friend (for the last 10 years) and am not worried about being cheated. But I have everything written out clearly just in case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

If I were James I'd want something in there about what time of day you can come over to inspect things, and how much notice you have to give. For instance, if I were him I would not be happy with you banging on my door at 2 a.m. if you had a nightmare about Kenai getting hurt or something.

---

hahaha that would be funny actually. He lives about 1.5 hours away so it'd have to be a really bad dream lol. I asked him if he would like to add or change anything and he said it looks good to him so I guess he isn't worried about me banging on his door haha. He lives very close to my parents and will stop by when I visit them, I'll def be giving a heads up. It'd be rude not to

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

Hmm I thought I had written it so that it's mainly in my favor? I basically wrote it to protect my butt in every way I could think of. He is also my sisters good friend (for the last 10 years) and am not worried about being cheated. But I have everything written out clearly just in case

---

Well if he is a long time family friend then I wouldn't worry too much about changing the contract around. But little things like, having him be responsible for feeding and getting the rats. And have him pay for vet bills, not you. If you loan me your xbox and I damage it or my house burns down I would have to be the one to replace it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronin

And have him pay for vet bills, not you. If you loan me your xbox and I damage it or my house burns down I would have to be the one to replace it.

---

I would agree to some degree however not every vet bills should the responsibility of the person in possession of the animal during the loan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

I would agree to some degree however not every vet bills should the responsibility of the person in possession of the animal during the loan.

---

In the contract I stated I would pay all vet bills Unless it was something completely his fault (example used in the contract is my snake being burned by an unregulated heat source in his home). You better believe you're paying the bills if you harm or neglect my animal

Ok, it's been 3 months... how's it working out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

Ok, it's been 3 months... how's it working out?

---

Man, he backed out! I offended him and that was that. In hindsight I may have sounded arrogant, but I really was just wanting to cover all grounds. I'll just post the conversation.

http://imageshack.com/a/img855/5656/r53o.pnghttp://imageshack.com/a/img607/3618/7ee5.pnghttp://imageshack.com/a/img801/4669/nre8.pnghttp://imageshack.com/a/img202/1694/qw0f.pnghttp://imageshack.com/a/img811/8053/kw4n.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img22/5146/7kc6.png

And that was literally the end of the conversation. Nothing since

Off topic, but Kenai is gorgeous.

If he was that offended by such an innocent question, you wouldn't have wanted to do business with him anyhow. Better to have found out before you did the transaction.



Btw, I can certainly understand why you would have asked about a burn, and he should never have been offended by such a question, but that snake obviously did not have a burn. Once you've seen a bad burn in person, there's no mistaking it. It wouldn't look anything like that snake's belly - it would have been more blotchy and unhealthy. That snake really is just that saturated in color.

Too bad he reneged on the deal - they would have made some outstanding babies. But you should maybe think about picking up a nice high-color pastel for yourself. Like a cherry or summit. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

If he was that offended by such an innocent question, you wouldn't have wanted to do business with him anyhow. Better to have found out before you did the transaction.



Btw, I can certainly understand why you would have asked about a burn, and he should never have been offended by such a question, but that snake obviously did not have a burn. Once you've seen a bad burn in person, there's no mistaking it. It wouldn't look anything like that snake's belly - it would have been more blotchy and unhealthy. That snake really is just that saturated in color.

Too bad he reneged on the deal - they would have made some outstanding babies. But you should maybe think about picking up a nice high-color pastel for yourself. Like a cherry or summit. :gj:

---

Yeah and at the time I hadn't thought she was burned, but I just felt paranoid about everything and wanted to cover all bases since it was my first go around.Yeah I was very excited because that snake was gorgeous, on the top side of her too! But I think me and the guys personalities would clash and you're right, I'm happy I found that out before anything really got started. For a couple years now I've wanted to get into hypo mots, but space is an issue for me when it comes to boas. I am seriously considering a female I can grow up though, I love boas

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DooLittle

Off topic, but Kenai is gorgeous.

---

Here's some more updated pics of him =)

http://imageshack.com/a/img560/9259/o5nc.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img15/6632/gxw6.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img197/4912/n4i7.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img29/894/z2in.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img197/357/ty2r.jpg

What a pretty boy :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnowShredder

Yeah and at the time I hadn't thought she was burned, but I just felt paranoid about everything and wanted to cover all bases since it was my first go around.Yeah I was very excited because that snake was gorgeous, on the top side of her too! But I think me and the guys personalities would clash and you're right, I'm happy I found that out before anything really got started. For a couple years now I've wanted to get into hypo mots, but space is an issue for me when it comes to boas. I am seriously considering a female I can grow up though, I love boas

---

:gj: