Opinions on the market and stuff? Just curious

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks here, but what are your thoughts on the scale of breeding ball pythons, all of the new morphs and stuff popping up being developed all the time, and the market in general? I've heard a lot of opinions on this subject, but what do you all think?

Everything is just fine :)

Personally I think the market is in trouble simply because there are so many breeders out there.

My prediction for the future of the market, We'll see prices continue to drop for a bit, a lot of people will get out of it and the market will recover as supply and demand returns. I think we're looking at a decade long reform. But it will return to what we were seeing three or four years ago.

And of course you will always see a healthy market for multi-gene animals and new genes entering the hobby.

The thing is the market can hold up but every now and then you get somebody who breeds and just undercuts everybody. Then people seem to think that's the going rate of stuff so they want it for that price. That isn't the case and especially if you want a quality animal and the person has no reason to move it out quickly they can hold off until the market re-levels itself.

Banana just sold for 1500 for a male, or 1750 for a Sabel Banana Male . . . The market on new morphs is a VERY dangerous bet to play now. Recessive mutations are still holding true, for the time, but even those have crashed. People are constantly undercutting value, and the market follows as a result for quick sales, which turn into drastic break downs in price. . . The market itself is stable as far as stuff still sells, but the price is insane, I bet champagnes will sell for less than 300 by 2014 season.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Banana just sold for 1500 for a male, or 1750 for a Sabel Banana Male . . . The market on new morphs is a VERY dangerous bet to play now. Recessive mutations are still holding true, for the time, but even those have crashed. People are constantly undercutting value, and the market follows as a result for quick sales, which turn into drastic break downs in price. . . The market itself is stable as far as stuff still sells, but the price is insane, I bet champagnes will sell for less than 300 by 2014 season.

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A male banana for $1500???!! Thats unbelievably sick!!! We saw bananas goin for $3-$4k at the Daytona show only a few weeks ago!! Jeeezuzzz!!!!!

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Banana just sold for 1500 for a male, or 1750 for a Sabel Banana Male . . . The market on new morphs is a VERY dangerous bet to play now. Recessive mutations are still holding true, for the time, but even those have crashed. People are constantly undercutting value, and the market follows as a result for quick sales, which turn into drastic break downs in price. . . The market itself is stable as far as stuff still sells, but the price is insane, I bet champagnes will sell for less than 300 by 2014 season.

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I hope champs don't go down that much :/ seeing as how we just got our girl. :( that would really bite.

There was a breeder here selling champ males $375 earlier this year.

You have to strategize with the market or you wont survive thats why so many ppl come and go and few stay. The ones that stay it will pay off

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Originally Posted by Mrl249

I hope champs don't go down that much :/ seeing as how we just got our girl. :( that would really bite.

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Saw a champagne male for $300 yesterday at NARBC Anaheim.

Didn't pay to much attention to banana/coral glow prices.

Here is the deal with the BP market... Prices will continue to drop as with any market and the interest will grow. Buy an animal today valued at 5k and in a few years it will be worth around 200 which is a big drop but think about all the animals produced and sold from that... One male in just 2 years time could produce as many as 5 clutches a year average of 6 eggs per clutch so that is 60 eggs, if said snake is a co-dom then average of 30 will be said morph... With that said after the first year of breeding that 5k animal expect the babies to go for around half of what you paid so you are selling these babies for 2500 each, just sell 2 and initial investment is back, the other 13 are profit. Reinvest your profit into something newer/more expensive with less time on market so slower decline in price and build from there. Pretty simple in text but not so easy in reality if you go with the undercutting that goes on and all of that fun stuff. But I think the market is perfectly fine and will remain so for quite some time. Each year more people get into and out of breeding snakes so each year every animal will sell if you are persistent and produce quality animals and stick to your guns on prices.

i think the market may be overheated and may tank.

it makes me suspicious that, especially in the higher price regions, the main customers of breeders are other breeders. i fear that most of the current demand may be driven by growth in ball python breeding, meaning people expand their collections or get into breeding.

a healthy situation would be if most ball pythons produced are sold as nice-looking pets. but for the expensive stuff, most demand seems to be coming from other breeders. and for the actual pet trade, most demand seems to be supplied by big imports of cheap african hatchlings.

i have a feeling there might be a bubble. paradoxically, what gives me hope is that prices for morphs do drop as fast as they do, that may be an indication that the market still properly regulates itself. so maybe instead of the formation of a bubble, these price drops are sufficient to prevent a bubble from forming.

but still, when production levels exceed the demand for pet snakes and it is the growth of BP breeding that is driving its own demand, things might get awfully unstable one day.

i really hope im wrong. if not, one big breeder quitting may one day cause a chain reaction.

I agree with this appraisal.

The hobby is not to the point where most people are willing to shell out $3K on a snake, whereas even casual people will do that with dogs no problem.

You can see this trend in the big box stores; they don't carry morphs, they carry regulars. Because they know that most casual pet owners are going to buy whatever they see at the store instead of a specialty morph.

The petshop in my town has only had one morph in the last 4 years I've been selling them mice (and they just got it in 2 weeks ago)...a pastel!! Talk about a morph letdown; if they stocked some pies or a spider in there the BPs would fly off the shelves. But they know that most people are just looking for a "whatever" snake, so they don't carry the more expensive ones.


Hopefully this field will work like the canine breed field; in the future it will be accepted that quality snakes cost more, and should be bought from breeders, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I agree with this appraisal.

The hobby is not to the point where most people are willing to shell out $3K on a snake, whereas even casual people will do that with dogs no problem.

You can see this trend in the big box stores; they don't carry morphs, they carry regulars. Because they know that most casual pet owners are going to buy whatever they see at the store instead of a specialty morph.

The petshop in my town has only had one morph in the last 4 years I've been selling them mice (and they just got it in 2 weeks ago)...a pastel!! Talk about a morph letdown; if they stocked some pies or a spider in there the BPs would fly off the shelves. But they know that most people are just looking for a "whatever" snake, so they don't carry the more expensive ones.


Hopefully this field will work like the canine breed field; in the future it will be accepted that quality snakes cost more, and should be bought from breeders, etc.

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Some of that may depend on geographical area too. Around here I've seen pastel, spider, and normal (I don't think I've seen any other morphs... but I feel like there may have been one other, like mojave or butter) in the big chain stores. At reptile specific stores I've seen a number of other morphs available, but that's also serving a more targeted audience (whether they are breeders, or merely reptile enthusiasts).

I do think people can be driven to pay more for quality snakes from a quality breeder, if the education is out there. It does happen in the rat hobby. There ARE people willing to pay $30 or more for a pet rat from a quality private breeder, when they could go to your average pet store and buy one for $3 (or maybe $10 if they want a so-called "fancy" rat from a big chain). I've actually had people pay $75 for my rats before, granted those rats were neutered, but it shows people are willing to pay a higher price tag for an animal that is higher quality than what they would get elsewhere. There are always going to be people looking for the cheapest pet they can find, but that's true no matter what animal it is (even horses, dogs, and cats). But put the educational material out there showing (not telling) people why it is better to purchase from abc source instead of xyz source, and if you provide sufficient evidence, they will do so. If there is no evidence, or it isn't sufficient enough to convince the masses, then they won't change.

:snake:

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

Here is the deal with the BP market... Prices will continue to drop as with any market and the interest will grow. Buy an animal today valued at 5k and in a few years it will be worth around 200 which is a big drop but think about all the animals produced and sold from that... One male in just 2 years time could produce as many as 5 clutches a year average of 6 eggs per clutch so that is 60 eggs, if said snake is a co-dom then average of 30 will be said morph... With that said after the first year of breeding that 5k animal expect the babies to go for around half of what you paid so you are selling these babies for 2500 each, just sell 2 and initial investment is back, the other 13 are profit. Reinvest your profit into something newer/more expensive with less time on market so slower decline in price and build from there. Pretty simple in text but not so easy in reality if you go with the undercutting that goes on and all of that fun stuff. But I think the market is perfectly fine and will remain so for quite some time. Each year more people get into and out of breeding snakes so each year every animal will sell if you are persistent and produce quality animals and stick to your guns on prices.

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Great advice tattlife2001. Some problem I see is dom and co-dom morphs are made very quickly, so the price should come down faster than recessives but some people don't see that and sell to cheep.

Also you have to remember the male balls that are selling for cheep are younger (late hatch) and wont be ready this breeding season. You wont see a 1.0 Banana for $1500.00 that has some size and will be ready for the 2014 season.

Lastly the more morphs there are creates choice problems and buyers then compare apples to oranges. Nothing can be done about this unless more people get into breeding ball pythons and I think that is the case.

For me I will always try to have combos/morphs that are unavailable and eye appealing. Someone said plan ahead and understand it is a falling market and you should be ok.

The two genes that have probably held their value the best for the time they've been around are Albino & Pied.

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Originally Posted by Mrl249

I hope champs don't go down that much :/ seeing as how we just got our girl. :( that would really bite.

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I saw a.male for 275 shippes and a female for 375 shippes or both for 500 shipped. Goubg rate for.male s seems to be 300-400 and femalws arouns 450 lately.....

Guy just posted a female pied for 750 and a male for like 550 or so.

People will ask what they want, what they get is totally different.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

A male banana for $1500???!! Thats unbelievably sick!!! We saw bananas goin for $3-$4k at the Daytona show only a few weeks ago!! Jeeezuzzz!!!!!

sent from my incubator

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a family friend of mine bought a male banana from wilbanks for $1500 at the daytona show. granted, it does have one small eye from an incubation issue and it was part of a "package deal." but yeah, prices drop fast on stuff that's mass produced. we paid $1,000 for our female champ at daytona 2012, and she's nowhere close to breeding size this year, so she may not even go next year.

my advice if you actually want to make decent money off an "investment worthy" snake: dont buy a female unless it's a homozygous recessive. no expensive inc-dom females. it could be three or four years before they ever breed for you and by that time prices on an inc-dom morph will have dropped substantially. and dont even think about dropping a few grand on an "investment worthy" male until you already have a couple proven females. and work with an expensive gene that is not worked with by everyone and their mother (i.e. not banana).

I've never lost money on a ball python investment. The margins are huge, and this year has been my largest and best year for me selling ball pythons. For me it's been a fun, safe and fairly easy market to invest into.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

The margins are huge

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This is true even if a 10 gene animal costs 50 bucks. People don't understand basic economics and that's OK because the people who do will make money...


... just like any other business.

Well i am local to Austin TX. Unlike most in this thread i see on a regular basis all kinds of base morphs. YB,pastels,black pastels, spiders,fires all kinds of stuff. At times in the year even bees and other multi gene animals are available and affordable. Perhaps the market in my area is a little more advanced and stable? Not real sure, but the market is showing zero signs of slowing down. In some circles certain morphs are becoming a status symbol if you will amongst collectors. So even average consumers (not just breeders) are dropping 600+ on a BP.

If you go to what i call "grass roots" expos in the area, there really is no limit of what you can see. If your a breeder the prices are beyond reasonable. 3 months ago i picked up a visual pied male, het for pied female and a 4 layer vision 70 rack complete with heat for 650. Not a bad deal in my book.

All this makes me very hopeful for the market in localized areas, hopefully spreading to a national of not global scale. Though i suppose we will have to just wait and see. I dont see many regular contributers here leaving the scene even if the market declines. Those after just money, will. Which will leave the market open to those devoted and passionate abput it. Eaither way, there may be some rough times, but we can survive it. The industry will survive it.

V2 HeX