Scaleless Ball Pythons?!

Looks like Brian hit on something big:

https://twitter.com/SnakeBytesTV/sta...245312/photo/1

:o :o :o

2 of them, nice. If I remember rightly the scaleless is super or visual and the co-dom/het lacks just a few scales. Looks amazing so far.

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Originally Posted by ball-nut

2 of them, nice. If I remember rightly the scaleless is super or visual and the co-dom/het lacks just a few scales. Looks amazing so far.

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If you watch the most recent SBtv episode he shows one with scales missing on its face/head. It looks like the totally scaleless animal is the super form of those. Can't wait to see what these guys look like when they emerge from the eggs :D

Scaleless ball pythons are not new - although BHB is working with a new gene, the dermas have been around for a little while.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-if-you-dare!

Not sure where they went to - not sure if the gene ended up being lethal or what. They seemed to have disappeared.

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Originally Posted by decensored

Not sure where they went to - not sure if the gene ended up being lethal or what. They seemed to have disappeared.

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I think it was a fluke, and wasn't proven to be genetic. I could be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I think it was a fluke, and wasn't proven to be genetic. I could be wrong though.

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would make sense considering I can't find anything on them since 2005 LOL, which was a few years before my reptile life began LOL.

Thanks Ricky!

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Originally Posted by decensored

would make sense considering I can't find anything on them since 2005 LOL, which was a few years before my reptile life began LOL.

Thanks Ricky!

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I also remember the Derma having a multitude of health issues.

These Scaleless BPs that Brian has produced - well I guess we'll see. Hopefully their skin is think enough. This reminds me of Silk back Bearded Dragons. They look awesome, but their skin is so thin that it literally rips and tears leaving the animals in excruciating pain.

Good point, considering the elasticity needed for eating, it's either going to be small meals or ripped skin if not thick enough.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I also remember the Derma having a multitude of health issues.

These Scaleless BPs that Brian has produced - well I guess we'll see. Hopefully their skin is think enough. This reminds me of Silk back Bearded Dragons. They look awesome, but their skin is so thin that it literally rips and tears leaving the animals in excruciating pain.

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Yea, the silkies have some issues for sure. Females can't be bred safely due to the males "love bites" and claws. Perhaps because of the lack of interaction with breeding bps (no biting/claws) and the fact they don't "bask" there won't be many issues. Aside from never being able to feed them live for fear of scratches/bites...

It will be very interesting to see how they progress.

This is a game changer.

Congrats to Brian and BHB for their perseverance and intuition on pursuing the project!

There has been scaleless corn snakes around for awhile, do they have skin or stretching issues?

This is without a doubt the biggest thing to hit ball pythons in years as long as there aren't any complications. Cant wait to see what these look like when mixed with some of the crazy morphs we have out there.

It is awesome, but I hope that any health implications are not downplayed for the sake of entertainment/$$.

I'm just simply stating that I'm not going to pay attention to the thread because it'll be out of my price range for quite awhile. I wouldn't mind getting one once it comes down to my price range though. Very nice looking.

how much do they cost?

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Originally Posted by Neal

I'm just simply stating that I'm not going to pay attention to the thread because it'll be out of my price range for quite awhile. I wouldn't mind getting one once it comes down to my price range though. Very nice looking.

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Originally Posted by ATTFighter

how much do they cost?

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Well I can almost guarantee you with it not being very common right now, it's probably well over $1,000 which is out of my price range. A full scaleless would even be more I'd assume.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Yea, the silkies have some issues for sure. Females can't be bred safely due to the males "love bites" and claws. Perhaps because of the lack of interaction with breeding bps (no biting/claws) and the fact they don't "bask" there won't be many issues. Aside from never being able to feed them live for fear of scratches/bites...

It will be very interesting to see how they progress.

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Hey, I guess mites wouldn't be a problem either? lol.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Well I can almost guarantee you with it not being very common right now, it's probably well over $1,000 which is out of my price range. A full scaleless would even be more I'd assume.

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Yea, I would imagine this is more like second mortgage price range. 75k-100k+

Brian has been breeding scaleless snakes (colubrids) for years. I've held a couple. They're very hardy snakes that feel wickedly cool to hold. They're not at all delicate like people seem to think they should be.

Now...whether or not this particular genetic mutation will present other health risks for ball pythons remains to be seen. But it's an exciting first step to find out if a scaleless ball python can be just as hardy as a scaleless corn snake. Won't know until it's tried, and that's what Brian has stumbled onto.

Brian is one of a handful of individuals I would trust to work on a project like this in the right way. The well being of the animal is paramount in his heart. I'm confident of his abilities to recognize and care for an animal that is destined not to thrive, should that turn out to be the case, and I'm confident he wouldn't continue to breed an a truly weak animal simply for the sake of potential profit.

It'll be exciting to watch and see what happens with these new babies!

BHB just posted a scaleless ball...looks sick.. wonder how it will do..

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I also remember the Derma having a multitude of health issues.

These Scaleless BPs that Brian has produced - well I guess we'll see. Hopefully their skin is think enough. This reminds me of Silk back Bearded Dragons. They look awesome, but their skin is so thin that it literally rips and tears leaving the animals in excruciating pain.

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Thats news to me, our silk seem to be just fine :) he does get rubbed down with lotion tho, otherwise his skin dries out.

Brian pulled the first scaleless head ball python out of a bunch of random snakes. Just a snake with a few missing scales. He bred it and found the scaleless head to be genetic. Finally breeding a scaleless head to a scaleless head, produced the scaleless ball, it is not related to any of the previous scaleless projects, so it might not have the issues, we can hope.

This is very exciting news. Hope they do well.

after a while of occasional watching from the sidelines, with these gigantic news i just had to log in :D

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Thats news to me, our silk seem to be just fine :) he does get rubbed down with lotion tho, otherwise his skin dries out.

Brian pulled the first scaleless head ball python out of a bunch of random snakes. Just a snake with a few missing scales. He bred it and found the scaleless head to be genetic. Finally breeding a scaleless head to a scaleless head, produced the scaleless ball, it is not related to any of the previous scaleless projects, so it might not have the issues, we can hope.

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Yes thats also what i gathered, the info is sprinkled into different snakebytesTV episodes. In the latest episode just recently he said that he has eggs in the incubator from a scaleless head to scaleless head breeding, and hopes to maybe hit a full scaleless.

so then the one that has like 5 scales missing on the head is the heterozygous form and its codom/incomplete dominant, and the super is a scaleless.

When Brian sold his first pair of 100% het sunglows (before that the morph only existed at BHB enterprises), asking price was 50000 dollars for both.

now for the first scaleless head / het scaleless, i think the initial price will be higher. Also the heterozygous ones can be sold individually because the missing head scales are so visible.


health issues.... hard to tell. i hope they turn out well. scaleless corns and scaleless texas rats seem to do fine. But the one-off deme ball was not healthy, but then, it was a random one-off.

i however see one issue: in the original deme ball, the heat pits are covered with a thin layer of skin, making them mostly useless. heat pits only work when they are deep and open, only then can the BP triangulate the direction and distance of the heat source. If the heat pits are essentially flattened by a layer of skin, the BP can at best tell that there is some heat source somewhere. When there are more pictures, when they are out of the egg, the heat pits will be the first thing i look at.

if the heat pits are really diminished, then i guess its really bad. a blind/eyeless BP can locate and hit its food, how about a snake with eyesight but no heat pits?

i cant wait to learn more, this is insane. All morphs we know are pixelated to a degree by the scale structure. Its like getting a new printer with higher DPI, or a new screen with higher resolution. So if these snakes turn out healthy then close to every morph will look better in scaleless.

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Originally Posted by decensored

Scaleless ball pythons are not new - although BHB is working with a new gene, the dermas have been around for a little while.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-if-you-dare!

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I believe the derma ball died a few years ago didn't it?

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

7. If you were to upgrade your collection, which morph would add that you do not already have in your collection? (Allan Riis)
OK, if I’m dreaming, then I will take a scaleless ball python. There was one several years ago called the Derma Ball and the guy that had it let it die. It is such a great responsibility when you have the only gene in existence and it is a shame that he didn’t send it to someone who would not let that happen. Scaleless Ball Python would be a complete game changer and whoever gets one first just hit the lottery. We know it is genetic. It is only a matter of time before one pops up. Then the bidding war will begin. I already have most of the other genes that I want. In fact, I really can’t think of a single one that I still want and don’t have. This will be a big year for us Banana/Coral Glow wise so I think a lot of people reading this will have an opportunity to add that mutation to their collection. A purple and orange co-dom ball python, it doesn’t get much better. Except for maybe the Atomic.

From an interview with Mike Willbanks

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How does Mike Wilbanks know that the original deme ball was genetic?

i assume he assumed it because such genes are proven recessives in other snake and reptile species. Its a multi-species trait, just like albino, or (in the furry animals) hairless.

if its genetic and the one you produce dies, you still have 2 parents that are each 100% het fot it. should be enough to not have the whole project go away with the death of one snake.

even if the deme ball was genetic and the producer totally botched it and did not even realize that he can resurrect the project with the two hets he has, or with even just one het and lots of patience, there still is the thing with the missing scales right in the middle of the top of the head. No mention of that in the context of the original deme ball.

The missing scales on the head were, i believe, first described by Brian of SnakebytesTV and CEO of BHB enterprises.... in, as he said, a hatchling he picked from a larger Africa import. Please prove me wrong and tell us if that trait, missing scales on top of the head, was ever described before Brian described it.

over all, i am quite confident that the scaleless gene is confined to Brians collection right now. Thats not bad news, im sure Brian (especially since it has that obvious marker) took care to breed it out and spread it around before crossing it back to hit the super. So the IPO of the gene (seems fitting with the money involved) will start when the gene turns out to be healthy, and with individual animals that are genetically diverse. I cannot think of a better person in charge of such an operation.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

How does Mike Wilbanks know that the original deme ball was genetic?

i assume he assumed it because such genes are proven recessives in other snake and reptile species. Its a multi-species trait, just like albino, or (in the furry animals) hairless.

if its genetic and the one you produce dies, you still have 2 parents that are each 100% het fot it. should be enough to not have the whole project go away with the death of one snake.

even if the deme ball was genetic and the producer totally botched it and did not even realize that he can resurrect the project with the two hets he has, or with even just one het and lots of patience, there still is the thing with the missing scales right in the middle of the top of the head. No mention of that in the context of the original deme ball.

The missing scales on the head were, i believe, first described by Brian of SnakebytesTV and CEO of BHB enterprises.... in, as he said, a hatchling he picked from a larger Africa import. Please prove me wrong and tell us if that trait, missing scales on top of the head, was ever described before Brian described it.

over all, i am quite confident that the scaleless gene is confined to Brians collection right now. Thats not bad news, im sure Brian (especially since it has that obvious marker) took care to breed it out and spread it around before crossing it back to hit the super. So the IPO of the gene (seems fitting with the money involved) will start when the gene turns out to be healthy, and with individual animals that are genetically diverse. I cannot think of a better person in charge of such an operation.

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Oh yeah I completely agree that the derma ball and Brian’s are very different. I’m not even sure how the derma ball came to be, I just remember that it had died. If I remember right it was bred once but have no clue what happened with that.

I'm very exciting about these new babies!!!

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Originally Posted by decensored

Scaleless ball pythons are not new - although BHB is working with a new gene, the dermas have been around for a little while.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-if-you-dare!

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If you watch the most recent SnakeBytesTV Brian also states that the Derma ball was 80 to 90 percent scaleless the ones he cut today are 100 percent scaleless. I just wanted to throw that in, I haven't read a lot of things about the Derma ball but that's what Brian said in the most recent episode. I hope that helps clarify things a little better.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58C6XU_h6c4

~CRR

they are still inside the egg and the veins are still red, not brown, so they must stay inside the egg a bit longer. so no judgement can be made on how scaleless they are.

and also on what i consider to be the most pressing issue, the condition of the heat pits, which i personally believe to be more important for a python regius than eyesight, the jury is still out.

Eyeless BPs manage to hit their food due to heat pits. We know nothing about BPs with eyes, but without heat pits.

lets wait and see for pics of the hatchlings out of the egg. And then lets wait for pics after the first shed. And look at the heat pits, closely.

due to hatch end of september. and i spotted really red veins. i guess we have to sit tight for a week or two before they are out of the egg.

banana scaleless? yes please. i'm guessing these will need to be fed strictly frozen thawed..

this popped up on my facebook news feed. i guess a 100% scaleless ball has been hatched in captivity before. it didn't live past 800 grams, but i think it's interesting how its pattern continues onto its belly. with dogs and other animals, when you shave them down you can often see a pattern on their skin that doesn't show up on their fur. makes me think all balls have pattern on their bellies, but the belly scales cover them up. kinda cool.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1038825&type=1

eugene bessette of ophiological services 2007

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Originally Posted by ball-nut

Good point, considering the elasticity needed for eating, it's either going to be small meals or ripped skin if not thick enough.

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I think its going to come down to that they will need fed frozen and have there hand held. Definitely cool, I don't think I want one though because if I remember correctly Mike Willbanks talked about how the guy with the first Derma ball let it die.

It had a series of health problems and the guy wasn't experienced enough so it didnt get bred off, it was said that the guy should have passed it off and sold it for a nice chunk of change to one of the bigger breeders. But I guess the guy refused the offers?

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

this popped up on my facebook news feed. i guess a 100% scaleless ball has been hatched in captivity before. it didn't live past 800 grams, but i think it's interesting how its pattern continues onto its belly. with dogs and other animals, when you shave them down you can often see a pattern on their skin that doesn't show up on their fur. makes me think all balls have pattern on their bellies, but the belly scales cover them up. kinda cool.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1038825&type=1

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That's really cool to see! I'm surprised it lacks the belly scales because if I'm not mistaken, someone who knows better can chime in, the scaleless rat snakes maintain their belly scales. It's sad to see that it didn't make it though.

~CRR

I'm with JLC, I trust Brian with this project because he has a passion for ANIMALS and not just money. If there's serious health defects then I trust him that he would not continue that line if breeding.

Interview w/ Brian.

http://www.herpnation.com/audio/ra19-092113/

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Originally Posted by BWyant

Interview w/ Brian.

http://www.herpnation.com/audio/ra19-092113/

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very interesting and informative :)

he also talks about the deme ball, and the other scaleless one, and how they did.

main difference seems to be: Brians scaleless ones are proven genetic. and since they are not recessive, but a super-form of the scaleless head BPs, he can make more.


but they seem to still be in the egg, so we dont know much about their health. Anyway he plans to share more pictures and to show the scaleless BPs at a show as soon as its possible.

Wouldn't missing belly scales make it very difficult for them to move? My current understanding of snake locomotion is that they are required for easy forward movement, but please correct me if I'm wrong.