Spider x Spider??

I want to hear from anyone that has done a spider x spider pairing? What was the outcome? I am thinking of throwing a male spider dh lav/ped on a few spied girls this coming season but want to make sure the outcome isnt gong to be lethal. Please refrain from commenting what you've "heard of"...I only want to hear from people that have actually bred two spiders together. Thanks in advance!

spider x spider being lethal is 100% a myth. All your babies will be fine.

Thats what I thought. What pairing have you done? Was the outcome 100% spiders?

This is my fist season, so I can't offer you my stats (however, I can tell you that I plan on doing spider x spider breedings in the future). A dear friend of mine did a bumblebee x mojave spider. She ended up with all healthy babies. Since spider is a dominant gene, you may get some homozygous spiders but you won't be able to tell them from normal spiders.

Thats kind of what I'm hoping for: homo spders. But I'd still be more comfortable hearing a personal account of someone breeding spider x spider??

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Originally Posted by Adam105

Thats kind of what I'm hoping for: homo spders. But I'd still be more comfortable hearing a personal account of someone breeding spider x spider??

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You just won't be able to tell homo spiders from non. Only breeding trials will be able to tell that.

May I ask why a person account is much better than my own story? Just because I didn't do the pairing (but I did personally witness locks), didn't pull mom of the eggs (but I did see the eggs), or messed with the babies (even though I personally sexed them) makes my story any less noteworthy? I'm just curious, is all. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to offer you help and advice and it's almost like you don't want it.

I will have to disagree with it being 100% myth, we just simply don't know.

We haven't seen a dead animal besides one claim that I know of, http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...tml#post775644 and one claim out of many breedings that have been done doesn't have me convinced yet, even if the homozygous rarely goes full term, you think there would be more than 1 by now.

There hasn't been a proven homozygous spider and honestly I haven't heard of an attempt to prove one out, let alone the multiples attempts it would take to even make a claim of it being lethal or say it doesn't exist. People use the lack of evidence as evidence of it being lethal which is ridiculous imo. If no one is looking for it and enough time goes by, apparently it just dies all of a sudden......

As for a breeder who has done spider x spider breedings personally, here you go: http://youtu.be/-fhnR5YdGdI?t=1m

how ever I personally feel he doesn't give us any more information, I haven't heard of his attempts (if any) to prove out a homozygous spider, so we are still in the same boat of "we don't know"

A buddy of mine paired Spinnerblast to spider this year got 6 eggs. 5 babies were deformed or died through incubation and he hatched one normal. It may have been temp related issues but personally I stay away from spider to spider pairings. Myth or not....its take a long time to produce hatchlings and I would hate to lose a clutch trying to figure out if it is a myth or not.

I also believe we just dont know and no one can give you a guarantee that your pairing won't be leathel or fine.
I would take All the info and decide what level of risk you can accept.
As far as the homo spider goes if there is one, it hasn't been proven or it would be all over the net,
people tend to talk.
Good luck whatever you decide.

Spider x Spider is just plain not a good idea. Advice from many breeders will be to avoid that pairing.

Spiders alone have enough neurological deficits. We don't really need "Super" forms of them floating around to further muck up the gene pool.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

A buddy of mine paired Spinnerblast to spider this year got 6 eggs. 5 babies were deformed or died through incubation and he hatched one normal. It may have been temp related issues but personally I stay away from spider to spider pairings. Myth or not....its take a long time to produce hatchlings and I would hate to lose a clutch trying to figure out if it is a myth or not.

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Chance of those 5 out of 6 eggs being homozygous spider would be quite slim, obviously it could happen but sounds like another issue.

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

Spider x Spider is just plain not a good idea. Advice from many breeders will be to avoid that pairing.

Spiders alone have enough neurological deficits. We don't really need "Super" forms of them floating around to further muck up the gene pool.

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Where do these other breeder draw their conclusions from? If the spider is a dominant trait, how would the super "muck" up anything worse than the heterozygous?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Where do these other breeder draw their conclusions from? If the spider is a dominant trait, how would the super "muck" up anything worse than the heterozygous?

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I believe "they" are drawing their conclusions from breeding BP's for 20+ years, and doing so with Spiders when there were only a handful of them known to be around.

Not everything that happens in this business is publicly advertised information, so just because you don't see a Harvard study on it doesnt mean anything one way or another, but I like and trust the information I have heard first hand.

Next we'll be breeding for Super Desert females.....

I ask because it seems like everyone proof is the absence of evidence. What information did they come across in the last 20 years? I don't need a study I need something that says someone actually tried because that doesn't exist publicly.

Not that this matters to the thread but I'm just curious. OWAL have you planned to do any on mass experiments with spider x spider? If I had the resources I might try to do it but that won't be for another 2-4 years.

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Originally Posted by Adam105

Thats kind of what I'm hoping for: homo spders. But I'd still be more comfortable hearing a personal account of someone breeding spider x spider??

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Man it's not nice to want gay things, lol!! Completely out of context :P

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Not that this matters to the thread but I'm just curious. OWAL have you planned to do any on mass experiments with spider x spider? If I had the resources I might try to do it but that won't be for another 2-4 years.

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I don't plan on it but, I know of 1 person that claims to be in the process of trying to prove out some offspring form a spider x spider clutch and another that seems to have serious plans of doing it also. However I may have some pin x pin eggs in a couple weeks :).

Spider seems to be linked to some form of head wobble. The head wobble, as I understand it, is on a spectrum from non-noticeable to quite the wobble. If the homozygous form the spider gene is lethal then you wouldn't see that portion of the punnet square show up at all. It would appear that you'd get 66% spiders and 33% normals statistically. In reality you'd be getting 50% spiders, 25% normals, and 25% (super) spiders that never made it to the egg stage. Being a homozygous (super) spider would mean that the embryo is non-viable and would stop in development early. If a spiderXspider cross was done then all the spiders would be het spider (visual) and the homozygous (super) spiders wouldn't have made it that far.

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Keep in mind I'm far from a ball python expert but I do study genetics. I'd love to study lethal/wonky BP genes in depth to fully understand what the root causes for some of the issues are.

I think at this point, with spiders being valued what they are, why would anyone still consider this pairing? I mean, everyone is aware of the spider wobble and a spider to spider will only produce a spider at best, I have to imagine any other pairing would be more worth the time? Why risk losing a season of eggs from a spider female only to be the first to hatch ONLY a spider from that pairing. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by PweEzy

I think at this point, with spiders being valued what they are, why would anyone still consider this pairing? I mean, everyone is aware of the spider wobble and a spider to spider will only produce a spider at best, I have to imagine any other pairing would be more worth the time? Why risk losing a season of eggs from a spider female only to be the first to hatch ONLY a spider from that pairing. Just saying...

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Spider combo X spider combo? Doesn't have to be plain spider to plain spider.

I was thinking about this the other day and wondering the same as you SMDminnesota if it's 66% spider and 33% normal or if it's still 50/50 from a spider pairing. I wish someone would crack the case on the whole homozygous spider/pin debate. I'm very curious.

They did. Some guy did a breeding project with spider. It's on these forums from at least a month ago if not more. He had a sample size of an absurd number of spider breedings. I want to say ~1000. Plus if homozygous of either weren't lethal then they would be up on the classifieds with more popularity than the heterozygous counterparts.

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Originally Posted by PweEzy

I think at this point, with spiders being valued what they are, why would anyone still consider this pairing? I mean, everyone is aware of the spider wobble and a spider to spider will only produce a spider at best, I have to imagine any other pairing would be more worth the time? Why risk losing a season of eggs from a spider female only to be the first to hatch ONLY a spider from that pairing. Just saying...

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For some people money isn't the only value, there is value in knowledge. I would just say don't expect big breeders to be headlining the project. I don't expect to make money possibly proving out a homozygous pinstripe, but it's still cool :)

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Originally Posted by SMDminnesota

They did. Some guy did a breeding project with spider. It's on these forums from at least a month ago if not more. He had a sample size of an absurd number of spider breedings. I want to say ~1000. Plus if homozygous of either weren't lethal then they would be up on the classifieds with more popularity than the heterozygous counterparts.

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follow up to that was he was lying and didn't do the project like he said.

Brian from BHB has done it many times and has commented about it.

I remember a few others guys talked about it on their youtube channels as well

A recent snakebytes he shows off a 4 gene spinner and bred it with a bee or something.

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Originally Posted by Adam105

Thats kind of what I'm hoping for: homo spders. But I'd still be more comfortable hearing a personal account of someone breeding spider x spider??

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I have a homo spider. Proven. Every clutch that's come out has 100% had the spider gene. My last clutch was a spider x pinstripe pairing and 4/5 eggs were spinner, 1 egg was spider. And her wobble is very subtle, no issues with her at all - she is very healthy