WARNING for Florida herpers!

****WARNING****
Everyone here in Florida selling/buying ANY snake or anything considered a wild animal(tame or otherwise) MUST have a $50 permit from the FWC.
Today I met a guy to sell a pastel ball python, no big deal, right? Well, as soon as the money changed hands,
FWC pulled up lights flashing, guns drawn. I've been trading for a few years now and this is the first time
anyone ever mentioned the fact that you must possess said permit. I would have had it had l known,
but ignorance of the law doesn't matter. Now I have a court date and so on.
Be for warn......
Now I'm scared to use my cell phone, no mention of meeting time/place ever mentioned on anything but our phones, WOW! Scary Stuff.

WOW :tricho:

So was the guy undercover? Wow. That's an experience.

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Originally Posted by helmethead

now i'm scared to use my cell phone, no mention of meeting time/place ever mentioned on anything but our phones, wow! Scary Stuff.

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n.s.a.

Is this for real???

Sounds pretty stupid to me....do they consider tarantulas and stuff to be wild?? What about fish??

http://myfwc.com/license/captive-wildlife/

Just a quick read I don't think this permit applies to Ball Pythons.


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^ Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)

Balls are not included, the officers who rolled on you are out of line.

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Here is some more info from the same site, I don't see anything Ball Python related.

The following species are now listed as conditional snakes and lizards:
Indian or Burmese python (Python molurus)
Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
Northern African python (Python sebae)
Southern African python (Python natalensis)
Amethystine python (Morelia amethistinus)
Scrub python (Morelia kinghorni)
Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus)
Conditional reptiles are not allowed to be acquired for personal possession. Reptile dealers, public exhibitors, researchers and nuisance trappers may apply for a permit to import or possess conditional snakes and lizards. Individuals that possessed of any of these reptile species as personal pets and that were properly licensed under a Reptile of Concern license before July 1, 2010 may keep their animal and must maintain a valid Reptile of Concern license for the remainder of the animal's life.

Conditional snakes and lizards must be kept indoors or in outdoor enclosures with a fixed roof and must be permanently identified with a microchip when the animal reaches one inch in diameter, unless the animal is to be exported out of the state within 180 days. Conditional snakes and lizards must be double-bagged and placed into a secure container for transport. Owners of conditional snakes and lizards must submit a Captive Wildlife Critical Incident/Disaster Plan and must maintain records or their inventory.


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This is a very tricky subject because the way the rules were written is very vague. I've spoken with multiple FWC people and have gotten different answers every time.

Some think that BP's don't need a permit as they are exempt, while others say they do becausle they aren't specifically mantioned as exempt.

Here is where the confusion comes from:

This:

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Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)

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vs.

Quote:

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E. Class III Wildlife

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.
There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species. Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife.

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The issue is that there isn't a formal list of either so it can very easily be twisted into whatever the person wants.
My advice to anyone in Florida, or looking to deal in Florida is to just get a Class III permit. Better safe than sorry. Another way to get around this is to have a business license that proves that these animals aren't for personal possession but rather a business.

Wow, scary stuff...
With everything going on in the world why would any government(city, state or federal) be worried about the sale of snakes, let alone ball pythons one of the least dangerous ones.

This is ridiculous. I'm sorry that you had to go through this.

This is definitely for real, my nerves are STILL shot to heck. I have been on the FWC site many times making sure ball pythons are not
restricted or banned or what have you. Yes, this was some sort of undercover operation, but for selling ball pythons?! WTF!!!
I know way too many cops to not be in compliance. Seriously though, ball pythons?

I'm just glad I didn't have the dog and pony show in front of my house. I always meet people at a busy location(7-11, McDs, etc...)

So, Curtis, you and your boys can all rest easy knowing you took out a ball python selling citizen.

Oh, and they said I would need a Class III permit to buy/sell ball pythons - NO ifs, ands or buts.

Yes, you have to have a class III for selling any wildlife. In other words, any animals not classified as domestic.

It sucks, but $50 to cover your bum from incidents like this is well worth it.

It says on the fwc site that it is required for sales of all wildlife not listed...so it sucks that you misinterpreted it, but it's there :/

I even listed my rats on it just to be safe.

Yay government being all up in your business. (Sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Yes, you have to have a class III for selling any wildlife. In other words, any animals not classified as domestic.

It sucks, but $50 to cover your bum from incidents like this is well worth it.

It says on the fwc site that it is required for sales of all wildlife not listed...so it sucks that you misinterpreted it, but it's there :/

I even listed my rats on it just to be safe.

Yay government being all up in your business. (Sarcasm)

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It's not that cut and dry, because on the same page it says 2 very different things:

First it says that non-listed/endangered/etc. don't need a permit, but further down the page it says any species not specifically listed must have a Class III permit. I've had FWC people tell me that I don't need a permit, and others that did. I agree that it is best to just get one to be safe (or go the business route), but FWC needs to get this cleared up.

This is what they were going on.

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Class III Wildlife

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.
There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species. Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife.

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Emphasis mine.

While this also exists in the same rules a contradiction but, it applies only to personal possession.

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The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

• Button quail
• Canaries
• Chinchillas
• Cockatiels
• Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
• Ferrets (domestic; European)
• Finches
• Gerbils, hedgehogs
• Guinea pigs
• Hamsters
• Honey possums, sugar gliders
• Lovebirds
• Moles; shrews
• Myna birds
• Parrots
• Prairie dogs
• Rabbits
• Rats and mice
• Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
• Shell parakeets
• Squirrels; chipmunks
• Toucans

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So it looks like they have contradictory requirements that should get you off of any charges or fines for personal possession so long as you are not selling or exhibiting reptiles that fit into the "nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated". Unless there is something specific hidden elsewhere in one of the linked pages.

Wow, the whole thing is stupid if you ask me. Regardless instead of trying to stop people selling ball pythons, they need to get out there and do something useful with the tax payers money. I mean like go find people killing endangered species or fighting dogs. I feel the same way about when the cops sit there and write seatbelt tickets. I feel there are much more useful things for them to be doing like catching murders, child molesters, rapists and people making/selling drugs. I mean a seat belt versus that, really?

EDIT:
Before anybody flames my post, please understand that I'm in law enforcement, though I work in corrections. I still stand by what I say.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Wow, the whole thing is stupid if you ask me. Regardless instead of trying to stop people selling ball pythons, they need to get out there and do something useful with the tax payers money. I mean like go find people killing endangered species or fighting dogs. I feel the same way about when the cops sit there and write seatbelt tickets. I feel there are much more useful things for them to be doing like catching murders, child molesters, rapists and people making/selling drugs. I mean a seat belt versus that, really?

EDIT:
Before anybody flames my post, please understand that I'm in law enforcement, though I work in corrections. I still stand by what I say.

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Remember in this economy there is nothing more important to the local municipalities then putting money in the coffers. Arresting bad guys doing bad things costs money, it does not make it. Writing seat belt tickets and tickets that fine someone for not having spent $50 dollars on a ambiguous permit, makes money. And when they force you to buy the permit you didn't have, that is more money yet. You want an answer to a question that makes no sense. Always follow the money.

This is not new. It's been around for years. My guess is they're now putting you on a list of people to watch to see what if anything you sell in the future. A ball python today could be bear gall bladders tomorrow.

You will get contradictory advice from individual officers. Get the permit. You're not going to change anyone's mind who's in the enforcement game no matter what you tell them. If they roll up on you or stop by your house, at which time I recommend NOT answering the door at all, it's guilty until proven innocent. As much as that sucks, there have been some serious buttwipes that have been busted selling illegally which is why everyone is now suspect. You just never know what someone has at home.

Wow, so sorry you had to go through that. Let me ask you this: do they also stake out pet shops selling balls to unlicensed 16 year olds? That whole provision is ridiculous. I can't believe they'd waste so much time and money on a ball python sting. Hopefully everything works out for you. Sending good thoughts your way.

I have no clue if I need a lawyer or just me showing up is good enough for whatever they have in mind. :confusd:

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

Remember in this economy there is nothing more important to the local municipalities then putting money in the coffers. Arresting bad guys doing bad things costs money, it does not make it. Writing seat belt tickets and tickets that fine someone for not having spent $50 dollars on a ambiguous permit, makes money. And when they force you to buy the permit you didn't have, that is more money yet. You want an answer to a question that makes no sense. Always follow the money.

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I doubt if they even make money. It's probably costing them more than 50 bucks to write a ticket for 50 bucks...unless the cop is working for free, all the people who process the tickets are working for free, the tickets are printed up for free, the people processing payments are working for free, etc...

It's also now the court house, judge, city representation, etc.

They're really not making money but trying to come up even on their expenses.

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Originally Posted by helmethead

I have no clue if I need a lawyer or just me showing up is good enough for whatever they have in mind. :confusd:

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Can't you get a short consultation free from most law offices? Pretty sure they do. Might be a good idea to give a few a call and ask to see if you should lawyer up or just fight the nonsense yourself...

y dont u just tell them it was personal and that u couldnt take care of it no more .. that u dont sell them u were just selling this one cause u couldnt afford to keep it no more

consult a lawyer, find out what the penalty is. (maybe just a little fine).

if the penalty is less than a lawyer, fight it on your own. If the lawyer is less than the penalty, hire a lawyer. Sounds like a decent lawyer will rip this case to shreds. Actually, looks like you'd have a good shot:)

Did they actually arrest you, or just give a ticket?

Good thing it wasn't me, I would've drawn my weapon...

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Originally Posted by wienkeg

Good thing it wasn't me, I would've drawn my weapon...

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And???


don't leave us in suspense...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by helmethead

****WARNING****
Everyone here in Florida selling/buying ANY snake or anything considered a wild animal(tame or otherwise) MUST have a $50 permit from the FWC.
Today I met a guy to sell a pastel ball python, no big deal, right? Well, as soon as the money changed hands,
FWC pulled up lights flashing, guns drawn. I've been trading for a few years now and this is the first time
anyone ever mentioned the fact that you must possess said permit. I would have had it had l known,
but ignorance of the law doesn't matter. Now I have a court date and so on.
Be for warn......
Now I'm scared to use my cell phone, no mention of meeting time/place ever mentioned on anything but our phones, WOW! Scary Stuff..

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Unbelievable. Its not like you were black-marketing an orca whale, white siberian tiger, a few polar bears, and a dozen or so clubbed baby seals...

On a serious note. I've looked in to the laws considering animal trade in Florida.

Fact: It does not mention 'ball python' anywhere considering private animal sale. It is somewhat grey.
Fact: This is Amurica! :salute: You are innocent until proven guilty.


I have high hopes for you, and wish you the best of luck with this.

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Originally Posted by steve_r34

y dont u just tell them it was personal and that u couldnt take care of it no more .. that u dont sell them u were just selling this one cause u couldnt afford to keep it no more

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Well, if they just so happened to track his cell phone calls... Which there are programs out there that do happen to flag calls when certain words are mentioned in violation of laws. The 'Rex' being one of them. I'm pretty sure they've seen this thread already IF they are trying to build a case. Don't offer alibis. I think honesty is the best policy here. The grey areas in the law are too grey to be overlooked in this case. It was an innocent pet sale. Like the above post... Any decent lawyer will jump right at this, odds are in your favor my friend.

OP, are you sure the other party wasn't part of the setup? That would make perfect sense, no call monitoring required.

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

OP, are you sure the other party wasn't part of the setup? That would make perfect sense, no call monitoring required.

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x2

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Originally Posted by sho220

And???


don't leave us in suspense...

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and that would likely have made the situation worse...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by steve_r34

y dont u just tell them it was personal and that u couldnt take care of it no more .. that u dont sell them u were just selling this one cause u couldnt afford to keep it no more

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I'm guessing from the fact that you don't write English worth a crap that you are young. Perhaps stupid too. Lying is NOT the way to go.

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Originally Posted by wienkeg

and that would likely have made the situation worse...:rolleyes:

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I can't imagine how...



/sarcasm

Lying would do damage to our already on the line hobby.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by wienkeg

consult a lawyer, find out what the penalty is. (maybe just a little fine).

if the penalty is less than a lawyer, fight it on your own. If the lawyer is less than the penalty, hire a lawyer. Sounds like a decent lawyer will rip this case to shreds. Actually, looks like you'd have a good shot:)

Did they actually arrest you, or just give a ticket?

Good thing it wasn't me, I would've drawn my weapon...

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Drawing a gun on an officer because you don't like what you are being cited for? That's incredibly stupid, irresponsible, and dangerous. If some scumbag drew on me for those reasons, or at all, he wouldn't have the ability to write about it on a forum.

How could it have gotten worse? You could have been shot dead for your stupid actions. Dying over a ticket? Give me a break.

Please don't come on here and talk about your desire to draw a gun illegally on an officer because you are too immature to handle situations like a responsible adult.

/rant


Sent From an Enclosure

So what would be the case for the tons of people who have just one ball python as a pet and are NOT breeders and just want to sell their ball python because maybe they don't want to take care of it anymore or have to move etc.? They have to get a Class III permit just to sell it? Or else they are stuck with it?

Just to let you know, if you would have drawn your weapon on the police, you would of been instantly shot and killed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wienkeg

consult a lawyer, find out what the penalty is. (maybe just a little fine).

if the penalty is less than a lawyer, fight it on your own. If the lawyer is less than the penalty, hire a lawyer. Sounds like a decent lawyer will rip this case to shreds. Actually, looks like you'd have a good shot:)

Did they actually arrest you, or just give a ticket?

Good thing it wasn't me, I would've drawn my weapon...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ATTFighter

So what would be the case for the tons of people who have just one ball python as a pet and are NOT breeders and just want to sell their ball python because maybe they don't want to take care of it anymore or have to move etc.? They have to get a Class III permit just to sell it? Or else they are stuck with it?

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That is my understanding of the law from a guy who lives in Fla. and was very big into ball pythons for a long time. One or a hundred, you need the Class III to sell in the state.

******Did they actually arrest you, or just give a ticket?
I was given a citation with a court date.

******OP, are you sure the other party wasn't part of the setup? That would make perfect sense, no call monitoring required.
Oh, I'm sure he was an undercover FWC officer. My head was still spinning when I wrote the first post.
Like I said, it was the first time in my life being handcuffed, and it freaked me out a bit.

I'm not bashing the popo or anything like that, trying to give my fellow Floridian herpers
a heads up. I checked the FWC site a while back when I first started having BPs
and could not figure out if I needed a permit or anything, well now I know. :(

There's been a few threads about who needs permits in Florida.

Yes, as far as I've been able to determine, you need the permit to sell ANY bp. even if it's "just one" or if "u couldn't keep it".

Where did you advertise the snake for sale? How many snakes have you advertised that way in the last year(whether you sold them or not)? If you used craigslist, they probably trolled you up and nailed you that way.

If you go to court, be prepared to tell them the truth about if you've sold other snakes if you contest it. They may have saved the other ads or whatever they find online about sales or potential sales you've made or offered to make. Otherwise, it may be easier to just take the fine and apologize and get the permit for the future.

I get the permit if I'm going to have BPs to sell. Sometimes I've even been asked for my permit when I've sold to a petstore. Other than the stores, no one has ever asked, but I have it if I'm going to have babies to sell.

It's a bit of paperwork and yes, it's "just a ball python" but to the FWC, it's yet another exotic snake that could be an issue if they were released in South Florida.

From what I understand, as a BP is considered Class III Wildlife, you need a license not only to sell or trade, but to merely be in possession of one. That means regardless of whether you breed or simply have one pet snake, ALL Floridians must have a permit.

That blows!! Hopefully it's a first charge for you and you are able to get it dismissed. Hope everything works out, buddy!

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

From what I understand, as a BP is considered Class III Wildlife, you need a license not only to sell or trade, but to merely be in possession of one. That means regardless of whether you breed or simply have one pet snake, ALL Floridians must have a permit.

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False. If this were the case, pet stores in florida could not sell them without proof of permit (like they have to do now with burms/retics/Nile monitors etc)

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Originally Posted by cory9oh4

That blows!! Hopefully it's a first charge for you and you are able to get it dismissed. Hope everything works out, buddy!

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I believe it was a ticket not a charge. In theory he'll just have to pay a fine and probably purchase the permit.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

False. If this were the case, pet stores in florida could not sell them without proof of permit (like they have to do now with burms/retics/Nile monitors etc)

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But if you read the Class III wildlife section, it clearly says a permit is required for personal possession. Which is where I'm confused. If this were enforced (which it should be, agents can't pick and choose which part tk enforce), then there would have to be a license issued for every BP sale.

FWC:

Class III Wildlife

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species. Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife.

Here is that list:

The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

• Button quail
• Canaries
• Chinchillas
• Cockatiels
• Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
• Ferrets (domestic; European)
• Finches
• Gerbils, hedgehogs
• Guinea pigs
• Hamsters
• Honey possums, sugar gliders
• Lovebirds
• Moles; shrews
• Myna birds
• Parrots
• Prairie dogs
• Rabbits
• Rats and mice
• Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
• Shell parakeets
• Squirrels; chipmunks
• Toucans

And just to be thorough, here is this list :

The following species are now listed as conditional snakes and lizards:

• Indian or Burmese python (Python molurus)
• Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
• Northern African python (Python sebae)
• Southern African python (Python natalensis)
• Amethystine python (Morelia amethistinus)
• Scrub python (Morelia kinghorni)
• Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
• Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus)

So yall can't actually own retics or burms unless you're a business??

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

So yall can't actually own retics or burms unless you're a business??

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We can't own them unless we have a conditional reptile permit, and then it's not for "personal pet" but only as "Reptile dealers, public exhibitors, researchers and nuisance trappers". So if you want to be a dealer, or exhibitor (this can be a nice loop hole for those not wanting to be a dealer), you have to apply for the permit/license.

I have posted ads on craig's list and ebay classifieds, so not sure which they're lurking in, probably both. The guy "Curtis" I met called an a pastel, but
actually a "friend" of his called about an old ad asking about a snake I had already traded. When l said it was gone he asked if I had anything else available.
I said I have a pastel female, he said it was more than he wanted to spend and asked if he could give my number to a "friend" who might be interested, Curtis(alias I'm sure).
The rest, as they say, is history...
So be fore warned my fellow Florida based herpers, get that darn permit before you attempt to sell any ball pythons or some unsuspecting person is gonna get hooked on your contraband and sell to his friends, and so on, and so on, and so on....
Gotta make lite of it, it could have been far worse.


I'll know how bad it's really going to be once I get to court... :(