black pastel vs cinnamon are they the same morph?

hello :) i have a question, i know im rather new to the ball python world but i honestly see no difference in black pastel and cinnamon.
is there large differences from the two when they are bred to other morphs?
perhaps the black pastel is a more color morph whereas the cinnamon is a color and pattern morph?
i have searched around wobp.com and it seems like they both make the same looking animals.
im so confused any help on this subject would be most appreciated ty for your time :)

Similar and part of the same complex.

But there are definitely differences between them as there is with lemon and graziani pastels. :)

They are very similar. The genetic mutation, from what I understand is along the same allele - which makes their appearance very similar. There are some differences, and it does make a difference in some mutations. You can think of it like the lesser vs. butter

In person to me the difference is extremely clear

thank you for your posting,

if i may ask could you discribe the difference you saw im only trying to see it for myself.i own two rather large female cinnys but i have only ever seen one black pastel.

Ok,

So from my experience with black pastels and cinnamons:

Black pastels tend to have a darker color overall, darker heads, bolder/brighter eye stripes and dorsal stripes, less whitish flaming near the belly, and a more orange coloration. The alien heads also tend to have black flecking around the "O" giving them a more granite-like appearance.

https://ball-pythons.net/images/morp...01-deborah.jpg

Cinnamons are light/browner in color, tend to have lighter blacks and more blushing. Their heads tend to be a mocha brown color with pale faded eye stripes. They have high whitish flames from the belly up the sides towards the back, and are creamier in appearance. Their alien heads tend to be clean looking, with nearly no flecking at all.

http://pythonregius.com/images/produ...nnamon13M3.jpg

Hope that helps!

There are definitely clear differences. TJ just summed it up perfectly. :)

If I compare all the pictures available of both,and not just pic and choose, they are the same. Just like lesser/butter.

When looking at good examples it's like nite and day to me :D

TJ pretty much covered anything useful i was gunna say. Good writeup!

Awesome post TJ!!

Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

When looking at good examples it's like nite and day to me :D

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LOL! A high quality normal is still a normal.:rofl:

TJ summed it up perfect. when looking at them side by side it's easier to tell a difference. just keep looking at pictures and going to shows and after a while you'll develop an "eye" for them and their differences. kinda like developing your palate when tasting wines. just takes time and practice. when i first started i couldn't pick out a yellowbelly from a normal to save my life. the lesser/butter thing though i'm not so sure about.. but i don't think i've seen very many single gene butters. our queenspin and kingspin supposedly have butter in them instead of lesser, but they look the same to me as their lesser counterparts.

Firstly,

Thanks everyone! I tried to be as accurate as possible lol...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

If I compare all the pictures available of both,and not just pic and choose, they are the same. Just like lesser/butter.

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You also need to consider how many people wrongly list a black pastel as a cinnamon, and a cinnamon as a black pastel. Just because the picture comes up on google image search when you type in "cinnamon" doesn't mean that the picture is correct. I also saw a lot of cinnamons listed as black pastels when black pastels were newer and worth about 40% more than a cinnamon was at the time.

They are similar, not the same.
Think of Mojave and Phantom, Yellow Belly and Orange belly... etc.

Cinnamon and Black Pastel are allelic and in the same gene complex, but are *not* the same genetic mutation. They do look vastly distinct from each other. Both are a color and pattern morph.

The butter/lesser, Graziani/lemon pastel, orangebelly/yellowbelly examples are incorrect because they are the same genetic mutations. Just different lines of the same mutation.

Cinnys and Black Pastels are not different lines of the same mutation. They just lie on the same genetic loci, making them have similar traits.

An equivalent example would be fire, vanilla, and disco. 3 different morphs that are similar, but not the same. They are all allelic to each other and do very similar things in combos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

If I compare all the pictures available of both,and not just pic and choose, they are the same. Just like lesser/butter.

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I can't tell lessers and butters apart, they're the same to me. If someone says they can tell them apart then i think they're full of crap.

I can however, tell cinnies from black pastels though. Just because you can't, doesn't mean that they're the same thing.

Also, you say cinnies are all normal? Well then i love my normals lol!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/24/e6y9edaj.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/24/ry2amu8e.jpg
Compared to my normal they look pretty different.... :rolleyes:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/24/2ejyqanu.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Cinnamon and Black Pastel are allelic and in the same gene complex, but are *not* the same genetic mutation. They do look vastly distinct from each other. Both are a color and pattern morph.

The butter/lesser, Graziani/lemon pastel, orangebelly/yellowbelly examples are incorrect because they are the same genetic mutations. Just different lines of the same mutation.

Cinnys and Black Pastels are not different lines of the same mutation. They just lie on the same genetic loci, making them have similar traits.

An equivalent example would be fire, vanilla, and disco. 3 different morphs that are similar, but not the same. They are all allelic to each other and do very similar things in combos.

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I find orangebelly and yellowbelly to be distinct enough (especially in their homozygous forms) to be considered their own genetic mutations - but if you want to make it indisputable, you can compare Spark to Gravel, Yellowbelly to Asphalt.

While some people have thought they were the same morph, they aren't. They have quite a few differences, though however some times I'm sure they can look similar to people who may not know what they're looking for.

A super cinnamon is brown, while a super black pastel is all black.

i understand now, that post cleared it all up for me tj. thank you all for your posts and help i appreciate your time and i hope you all have learned as much as i have lol :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Cinnamon and Black Pastel are allelic and in the same gene complex, but are *not* the same genetic mutation. They do look vastly distinct from each other. Both are a color and pattern morph.

The butter/lesser, Graziani/lemon pastel, orangebelly/yellowbelly examples are incorrect because they are the same genetic mutations. Just different lines of the same mutation.

Cinnys and Black Pastels are not different lines of the same mutation. They just lie on the same genetic loci, making them have similar traits.

An equivalent example would be fire, vanilla, and disco. 3 different morphs that are similar, but not the same. They are all allelic to each other and do very similar things in combos.

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This pretty much sums it up. Very similar, but not the same.