The Uniquesness Of Breeding Snakes

This is just a commentary on something I noticed a while ago but I never really see anyone talk about it. Please keep in mind I am talking in generalities and they their are exceptions to the norms.

When I look at the other types of pets and variations that are sought after, it's very purebred driven. Sure lots of folks have mutts and love mutts but most are interesting in a particular breed. My mother has two Siamese cats. The only way to get a pure Siamese is to breed 2 Siamese together. Basically, people desire the "Super" or Homozygous forms of dog and cat variations. It's the pure breeds that are most popular and cost the most money.

Snake people, on the other hand, seem to be more interested in the "mutts" of the snake world. We are overjoyed when we get some multigene combo that only has a 6% chance of hatching. And, generally speaking, it's these mutigene animals that are sought after and higher priced.

So it makes me curious why the industries are so different in their preferences. I know it can't be an individual's mindset. I prefer pure breed dogs and cats over some sort of combo. But while I find some Supers are nice to look at, I find the combos more exciting.

What are you thought are the subject?

Well different breeds look different, so breeding them together gets you a mix of physical build and characteristics, not just color. You're comparing breeds vs. colors. That's very different. I know people who breed rough and smooth collies and they're always chasing after merle and other colors.

Well, I'm not sure sure I agree with you on this one. There are a lot of BP morphs, but have you seen the list of "morphs" approved by the AKC?

Affenpinscher
Afghan Hound
Airedale Terrier
Akita
Alaskan Malamute
American English Coonhound
American Eskimo Dog
American Foxhound
American Staffordshire Terrier
American Water Spaniel
Anatolian Shepherd Dog
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Shepherd
Australian Terrier
Basenji
Basset Hound
Beagle
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Bedlington Terrier
Belgian Malinois
Belgian Sheepdog
Belgian Tervuren
Bernese Mountain Dog
Bichon Frise
Black Russian Terrier
Black and Tan Coonhound
Bloodhound
Bluetick Coonhound
Border Collie
Border Terrier
Borzoi
Boston Terrier
Bouvier des Flandres
Boxer
Boykin Spaniel
Briard
Brittany
Brussels Griffon
Bull Terrier
Bulldog
Bullmastiff
Cairn Terrier
Canaan Dog
Cane Corso
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Cesky Terrier
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
Chihuahua
Chinese Crested
Chinese Shar-Pei
Chinook
Chow Chow
Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel
Collie
Curly-Coated Retriever
Dachshund
Dalmatian
Dandie Dinmont Terrier
Doberman Pinscher
Dogue de Bordeaux
English Cocker Spaniel
English Foxhound
English Setter
English Springer Spaniel
English Toy Spaniel
Entlebucher Mountain Dog
Field Spaniel
Finnish Lapphund
Finnish Spitz
Flat-Coated Retriever
French Bulldog
German Pinscher
German Shepherd Dog
German Shorthaired Pointer
German Wirehaired Pointer
Giant Schnauzer
Glen of Imaal Terrier
Golden Retriever
Gordon Setter
Great Dane
Great Pyrenees
Greater Swiss Mountain Dog
Greyhound
Harrier
Havanese
Ibizan Hound
Icelandic Sheepdog
Irish Red and White Setter
Irish Setter
Irish Terrier
Irish Water Spaniel
Irish Wolfhound
Italian Greyhound
Japanese Chin
Keeshond
Kerry Blue Terrier
Komondor
Kuvasz
Labrador Retriever
Lakeland Terrier
Leonberger
Lhasa Apso
Lowchen
Maltese
Manchester Terrier
Mastiff
Miniature Bull Terrier
Miniature Pinscher
Miniature Schnauzer
Neapolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Norfolk Terrier
Norwegian Buhund
Norwegian Elkhound
Norwegian Lundehund
Norwich Terrier
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
Old English Sheepdog
Otterhound
Papillon
Parson Russell Terrier
Pekingese
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen
Pharaoh Hound
Plott
Pointer
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Pomeranian
Poodle
Portuguese Podengo Pequeno
Portuguese Water Dog
Pug
Puli
Pyrenean Shepherd
Rat Terrier
Redbone Coonhound
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Russell Terrier
Saluki
Samoyed
Schipperke
Scottish Deerhound
Scottish Terrier
Sealyham Terrier
Shetland Sheepdog
Shiba Inu
Shih Tzu
Siberian Husky
Silky Terrier
Skye Terrier
Smooth Fox Terrier
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier
Spinone Italiano
St. Bernard
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Standard Schnauzer
Sussex Spaniel
Swedish Vallhund
Tibetan Mastiff
Tibetan Spaniel
Tibetan Terrier
Toy Fox Terrier
Treeing Walker Coonhound
Vizsla
Weimaraner
Welsh Springer Spaniel
Welsh Terrier
West Highland White Terrier
Whippet
Wire Fox Terrier
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
Xoloitzcuintli
Yorkshire Terrier

I'm with Marrissa. I think a batter parallel would be to compare BP morphs to chocolate, yellow, and black Labrador retrievers. Crossing breeds is more akin to hybrids (carpalls, bateaters, etc.), which tend to be more frowned upon in the industry.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

I'm with Marrissa. I think a batter parallel would be to compare BP morphs to chocolate, yellow, and black Labrador retrievers. Crossing breeds is more akin to hybrids (carpalls, bateaters, etc.), which tend to be more frowned upon in the industry.

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Can't say I agree with that. All dogs are still dogs; the same species. A breed in Ball Python lingo would be a Homozygous or Super form.

The dog version of a combo morph would be a Labradoodle. It has a following but Labradors and Poodles are more popular and sought after.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

I'm with Marrissa. I think a batter parallel would be to compare BP morphs to chocolate, yellow, and black Labrador retrievers. Crossing breeds is more akin to hybrids (carpalls, bateaters, etc.), which tend to be more frowned upon in the industry.

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I agree here to this is a great way to look at it. You can also do this with many other dogs like boxers just to name a fee there is brindle, reverse brindle, fawn, white ect...

Mutts are way better :P Too many health issues with most purebreds.

I agree with Mason though, Breeds = morphs a dog equivalent hybrid would be well..a Hybrid! Wolf Hybrid, Dingo Hybrid, Coyote hybrid etc

Ummmm dogs do not come in morphs they come in breeds... Each breed has been bred for extremely long times to come to the current day standards and were all bred because of the job they were meant to do. Ball python morphs are not different breeds at all they are naturally occurring genetic mutations. A black lab looks like that because someone wanted it to. A pastel looks as it does because a gene got screwed up. Now a lemon pastel, gratazani pastel, and all those other ones would be to ball pythons what the black lab is to dogs. Each is a different "line" or breed that looks as it does due to selective breeding.

I disagree with the op and agree with Anna and Diamond.
I think of morphs as different colors/phenotype of one specific breed rather than many different breeds. All ball pythons are physically still the same as each other, just with a different paint job.

Like how doberman pinschers have black, white, black and tan, red and tan,.blue and tan, and fawn and tan. No matter what the color, still a purebred doberman in the end.


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But if you think in terms of length of breeding, original "dogs" all looked similar, they were bred for specific traits over a long long time. Some of them being genetically mutated, ie, this gene makes this pup much smaller than the other pups of this litter. I get what you are saying, but in reality we're comparing apples and oranges.

Breed small pup from this litter to small pup from that litter, get more small pups. Breed those small pups to other small pups, add in pups who have bigger chests, smaller ears, whatever...all of that is genes making them different.

If you wanted to say all bps were the same physically, what about sub Saharan? Or, different python, but dwarf retics/burms? Scaleless corns? The are all the same species, but they are physically different from one another. It's just a matter of time before someone pops out a dwarf bp and decides to work on that line of genetics. In truth, we are just scratching the surface of "breeds" for snakes. Right now we're only working on color coats, eventually, size, temperament, scales, etc will all come into play.


Edit: I get what you're saying about naturally occurring vs line breeding, but in the end it's all genes. They are mutated and shaped in one way or another. It just seems to me silly to consider all these different breeds like all the different species of snakes. A labradoodle does not a hybrid make.

Its an unequal comparison, as others have pointed out.

simple. people want what looks the most physically attractive, regardless of the path taken to get the animal there.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

simple. people want what looks the most physically attractive, regardless of the path taken to get the animal there.

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This is the only answer I've gotten that's been in the realm of what I was looking for.

As for the rest, you are all over complicating things. The only reason BP's don't come in different sizes and shapes like dogs and cats do is more to do with the infancy of being selectively bred by humans while dogs and cats and such have been bred for thousands of years to get all those different "breeds." And new breeds come up ever so often because a new mutant dog is born that is desirable and then get bred back to a parent to see if it's genetic. And that's the same thing we do but because of the infancy of selective bred reptiles most of the new mutations are coming straight from the wild.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

This is the only answer I've gotten that's been in the realm of what I was looking for.

As for the rest, you are all over complicating things. The only reason BP's don't come in different sizes and shapes like dogs and cats do is more to do with the infancy of being selectively bred by humans while dogs and cats and such have been bred for thousands of years to get all those different "breeds." And new breeds come up ever so often because a new mutant dog is born that is desirable and then get bred back to a parent to see if it's genetic. And that's the same thing we do but because of the infancy of selective bred reptiles most of the new mutations are coming straight from the wild.

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That's not quite how it works with dog breeds. You don't get dog breeds because of some new mutant gene. Dog breeds are created through generations of selectively breeding individuals who have the traits you desire. Those traits are not simple single gene traits, the way color morphs in ball pythons are. Instead those traits are controlled by multiple genes, some dominant, some recessive, some incompletely dominant, some sex-linked, some sex-influenced, etc etc etc. Many of the traits in different dog breeds are also polygenic. Most (all?) ball python morphs are created by a combination of single and relatively simple genes. The combination of genes in and of itself doesn't make it a "polygenic" trait in truer sense of the term.

Dog breeds didn't just pop up, they were created by combining different breeds. Look at the current "designer mutts", those are potentially new dog breeds in the making. Many dog breeds harken back to similar ancestors, for example mastiffs (including rottweilers), boxers, bulldogs, and the "pit bulls" go back to molosser type dogs. Other breeds were combined to create the unique breeds we have today (where pit bulls are concerned, they were combined with terriers). Other breeds were created in similar manner, using different breeds. Breed A bred with Breed B result in offspring who have traits of both. Those offspring with the desire trait are then kept and bred together or bred back to the parents, resulting offspring with desired traits are kept and bred, etc etc. Through the generations with careful selection, those mutts start to breed true, as the desired traits are cemented in, and a new breed is created. Dog breeds breed true because of the combination of polygenic traits.

Ball python morphs will never become breeds because they will never breed true (with the exception of homozygous dominant or homozygous recessive morphs). Within dog, cat, horse, or any other animal breed, there are types. Ball python morphs are equivalent to types. A foundation bred (type) Quarter Horse may be different in appearance from a race-bred(type) or sport-bred (type) Quarter Horse, but they are all still Quarter Horses (breed). An Egyptian Arabian (type) appears different from a Polish Arabian (type) appears different from a Crabbet Arabian (type) or CMK or Russian or Spanish, or the multitude of other types of Arabians, but they are all still Arabians (breed). But then you have cross breeds (which some may argue are actual breeds now) such as Anglo-Arabian (Arabian/Thoroughbred), Appendix Quarter Horse (Quarter Horse/Thoroughbred). Those cross breeds show traits of both "parent breeds". Even in breeds and types within breeds you'll get different colors (equivalent of morphs in ball pythons), but not all colors are found in all breeds. Arabians only come in bay, chestnut, black, and gray, with some white markings (primarily sabino) and some modifiers and patterns (such as rabicano or flaxen mane and tail). Quarter Horses come in nearly every color, including all those Arabians come in plus dun, cream (makes palomino, buckskin, and the double cream colors, what would be "supers" in the snake world), I think even champagne. Quarter Horses also came in pinto (white markings such as white splash, tobiano, frame overo), but those were separated out into a new breed, the Paint. Dogs are similar... within breeds you'll have types, such as working type German Shepherd, American show line German Shepherd, German line German shepherds, etc. You can have show border collies and working border collies. These breeds are the same, but their types (and thus appearance) is different. Within those breeds and types you get colors. German Shepherds are often black and tan, but also come in all black or all white (though the white German Shepherds are starting to be separated out as a new breed, the American Shepherd). Border collies typically come in black and white, but may also be sable and white or tricolor (may be more colors, I'm not as familiar with dogs as some other animals). Some breeds come in colors that are not accepted or recognized in their governing or registering associations. For example, poodles can be found with white markings, instead of the solid black, gray, white, or red found in shows. Great Danes also come in colors not recognized or accepted into shows, same in many other breeds. What makes a breed a breed is the fact you can breed two animals of this breed together, and all resulting animals will be that breed. They have similar traits, that "ideal" standard that was decided on when the breed was created and determined an actual breed. But it isn't just about physical appearance, it is also about the temperament and purpose for which the animal was bred. Not all individuals of a breed are going to look perfectly like that ideal standard (maybe the ears are too short and the tail too long), but they will still have physical traits that make them identifiable as that breed, as well as temperament traits. Not every animal of a certain breed will be useful for the purpose for which that breed was created, but will still show some traits desired for that purpose (a border collie may have a prey drive too high to actually be able to herd sheep, but it is that prey drive that makes a border collie useful for herding, as long as that prey drive isn't too strong to be controlled by the dog's handler).