At what point?

I was at a friends house this weekend and he showed me a very exspensive 5 gene animal. It had some very desirable morhps in the mix and It was without questions one of the ugliest snakes I have ever seen. Dull no contrast. beauty is in the eye of the beholder I know, but this was a seriously boring example of bp morphs. And to be honest I'm not sure unless you were told what was in it how you would even know. At what point does piling morph on morph just yield less attractive animals? I can't even remember what was in it exactly because to be honest after I saw it I lost interest. But I believe it was inferno something or other.

Kinda fun to read this, hehe. Well, inferno is a 4 gene combo. There's a bunch of single-gene morphs that I think are better looking than some multi-gene combos. More isn't always better when it comes to ball python morphs IMO.

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Originally Posted by DPBallPythons

Kinda fun to read this, hehe. Well, inferno is a 4 gene combo. There's a bunch of single-gene morphs that I think are better looking than some multi-gene combos. More isn't always better when it comes to ball python morphs IMO.

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This was definatly a 5 gene. I actually think it was enchi inferno. Because I remeber thinking wow there's enchi in this, can't believe enchi is in something so boring lol.

Enchi Inferno is on WOBP: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/enchiinferno/

I kinda like it lol. I don't like the granite gene though.

waste of genes lol

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Originally Posted by DPBallPythons

Enchi Inferno is on WOBP: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/enchiinferno/

I kinda like it lol. I don't like the granite gene though.

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That is a very cool looking snake. I'd like to see a picture of one at 1500 grams though. Cause if they turn out anything like this one I'm talking about what a disappointment. :( completely browned out and the pattern was mottled. Not at all like the snakes in that picture.

i've definitely seen some animals with a fat stack of morphs built in that didnt impress me at all visually.. but from a breeding project standpoint, they can be very impressive. you may get 6 or 7 beautiful genes in one animal, but together they don't really "wow" you. but if that animal is a male that you could run through 3 or 4 females and produce some amazing babies, who cares if he's ugly? lol

Ok so I asked my buddy what exactly was in the snake I'm talking about. It's Specter YB enchi fire pastel. So I was way off lol. Still the question remains the same.

Well, it's not always about the 5 gene animal... it's about what happens when you breed that 5 gene animal to a few single or double gene females and all of a sudden you have 15-20 different snakes. It's a great way to build stock, and variety within your collection. It's almost like a "warp zone" that takes you from a couple snakes to a lot of snakes quickly.

http://sydlexia.com/imagesandstuff/n..._warp_zone.png

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Well, it's not always about the 5 gene animal... it's about what happens when you breed that 5 gene animal to a few single or double gene females and all of a sudden you have 15-20 different snakes. It's a great way to build stock, and variety within your collection. It's almost like a "warp zone" that takes you from a couple snakes to a lot of snakes quickly.

http://sydlexia.com/imagesandstuff/n..._warp_zone.png

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Warp Zone... love it.

I can see how a 5 gene animal would be appealing as a male powerhouse.. In terms of aesthetics... yeah I understand what you mean. Sometimes too many genes, or the wrong combination of genes just ends up looking awful. I think anything more than 4 genes is in the territory of "what is even in this??"

This kind of relates to a concern I have for myself as a small breeder. One day I will have some 3-4 gene males cycling through my 1-2 gene females.. Eventually I am going to have a clutch where I don't even know what genes are in which animals. That day is going to be both awesome and terrifying!

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Eventually I am going to have a clutch where I don't even know what genes are in which animals. That day is going to be both awesome and terrifying!

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You're not alone - if you read through the BP facebook forums there are several folks with that problem now, especially when the sire and dam both have at least 3 dom or co-dom genes. Makes for some very interesting discussions, never mind the pictures...

How would you figure that out anyway??

Is there a place that can genotype the snakes to find out what their actual genetic morph is??

I guess on some level I get what people are saying. But I can't honestly think of anouther group of people other than bp breeders that could justify spending 20k on an animal that even they think is ugly just because of its potential lol.

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

I guess on some level I get what people are saying. But I can't honestly think of anouther group of people other than bp breeders that could justify spending 20k on an animal that even they think is ugly just because of its potential lol.

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That's the business side of bp breeding...it's the same reason people will pay millions of dollars for ugly little rocks like these...
http://images.goldworld.com/20071109_promise.jpg

On the positive side, think about the rack space you'd save with the 5-gene animal. :) Then again, with the $ you put into the 5-gene animal, you could get more racks.

I am in the camp for less genes per snake. I agree that often everything just gets kind of muddled looking. The other thing about a 4 or 5 gene animal that I see as a draw back, is how do you know what the parent of the specific gene looks like? I realize that breeders try to use beautiful animals for every gene. But you can just as easily make a 5 gene animal from animals that you may not have chosen the single gene form.

I always consider the Ivory as an example. The two ugliest yellowbellies you could hand pick, will still produce an Ivory.

I personally like single and double gene myself. I can appreciate the beauty of the specific morph better. Just my $0.02

The base morphs are simply the paints laid out on the palette...it's up to the artist (or breeder) to figure out what to do with them...and one of the biggest traps an artist can fall into is over-working a painting. The key is when to put the paint brush down and call it done...

Floyd here knows what I'm talkin' about...:)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...stilllife2.jpg

When it comes to animals with tons of genes stacked on, I think I'd prefer to add them in one at a time instead of jumping in head first with a 5-6 gene male.

I've been thinking about this lately when deciding if I wanted a ghost pinstripe, or a ghost lemonblast to pair with my fire honeybee girl. If I get a ghost pin, the best I could get would be a fire ghost spinner. I don't know if any exist, but I know what it will look like. I don't know if I could tell the difference between a fire ghost spinner and a fire ghost spinnerblast. They would be equally impressive looking, but thats basically five different shades of yellow at the same time.

i wish you had a pic of this guys specter yb enchi fire pastel. i know when making combos, i am reluctant to breed anything that will be especially difficult to identify if a 3 or 4 gene combo will ensue, and you won't be able to tell if its 3 or 4 genes, aka you can't tell if your snake is worth 2k or is a world's first and is worth more because of that.

http://www.omegapythons.com/Collection.html this guy has one. a gorgeous juvenile, i could imagine it might brown out quite a bit as an adult, but i would love to see an adult if anyone has one - quite the rare combo.

Glad I'm not the only one with these concerns. I'm still a noob at this, and I can see the breeding potential involved when stacking genes, but I doubt I will be getting more than a 3 gene male just to keep from having to make a thread called " Help me ID this clutch.". some of these combos just make me wonder why.

This is a very interesting topic. I agee somewhat. Imo, i guess its a "dont judge a book by its cover" kind of thing. An animal with lots of genes may look ugly, and by appearance may not look like its worth $$$$. But when you look at the animal's potential from a breeder's point of view, the possibilities of what you can create are worth it. When i saw an atomic in person, i was completely non impressed. It looked like a normal! Esp at $50,000! But when you see what the atomic gene does, it blows you away. For me personally, i can justify spending large amounts of money on animals that look like normals at first glance...I just dont dig all the "subtle normalish morphs", if you will. But a big breeder with the $$$ and the females, would consider that snake a great investment. I am just a hobby breeder. I like animals in my collection to look awesome, no matter the genes.

sent from my incubator

http://i41.tinypic.com/2vnm7lw.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/aet7aq.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2vw8nmb.jpg

I completely understand what you are saying. These are two I just picked up recently. The larger one is a 2012 enchi mojave pastel pinstripe. The smaller one is a 2013 enchi mojave pinstripe. I personally think the three gene female is a far better looking snake but the power of this four gene male is crazy. One of the females he will breed is this winter is a cinnabee. According to WOB genetic calculator there are 64 different possibilities that can result from this breeding and the chance of getting a normal is the same as hitting the six that I will not be able to identify.

i like the one with pastel in it, but i'm biased towards blond snakes. they are both gorgeous! pin tends to ugly things up pretty good too :(

The only thing that gets to mr about breeding is that done breeders are in it for the money. Yes there are some fantistic morphs out there and alot of people want to have a worlds first but at what cost. As a animal lover i couldnt do it. There are so many snakes just geting made and and pawned off when there no use to the breeder anymore. To be honest its messed up. stop thinking of ball pythons of just projects and start treating them like animals. Sorry for the rant guys. Its been eating at me for a while now.

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Originally Posted by zues

I completely understand what you are saying. These are two I just picked up recently. The larger one is a 2012 enchi mojave pastel pinstripe. The smaller one is a 2013 enchi mojave pinstripe. I personally think the three gene female is a far better looking snake but the power of this four gene male is crazy. One of the females he will breed is this winter is a cinnabee. According to WOB genetic calculator there are 64 different possibilities that can result from this breeding and the chance of getting a normal is the same as hitting the six that I will not be able to identify.

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Very pretty! I like both a lot but the female's bright yellow takes the win for me.

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

pin tends to ugly things up pretty good too :(

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*holds Allure close* :/

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Originally Posted by jasonmcgilvrey83

The only thing that gets to mr about breeding is that done breeders are in it for the money. Yes there are some fantistic morphs out there and alot of people want to have a worlds first but at what cost. As a animal lover i couldnt do it. There are so many snakes just geting made and and pawned off when there no use to the breeder anymore. To be honest its messed up. stop thinking of ball pythons of just projects and start treating them like animals. Sorry for the rant guys. Its been eating at me for a while now.

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Not seeing how breeding a lot, or breeding for the worlds first, or for snakes with a lot of genes means they don't take good care of their snakes. Just because they bred something better (upgrading stock like we all do), doesn't mean that they're mistreating the snake by selling it to someone who will put it to use. I seriously doubt they aren't going to take good care of their animals. Breeding is a project, but of course if you want to be successful you have to put the animals first. Pretty sure all those big time or small time breeders with expensive animals are going to take very good care of them.

I generally agree with your premise, but I think it depends on your reasons for breeding in the first place. If you're actually running a business, then yes the multi gene "ugly" boys have real value. As a hobbyist or pet owner, probably less so. I personally think that breeding should be based on the aesthetic qualities of the genes involved and not simply for the sake of having more and more crammed in there (ie. are these genes likely to improve each other, or are they going to be discordant?). Of course you won't know what happens when you combine all of those things in one animal if you don't try it, but if it's ugly don't keep repeating it.

That said, if someone produces a lavender snow true ghost lesser clown, I don't care if it's hideously ugly, it's still gonna be awesome.

Sorry about the rant guys. There a guy that calls him self a breeder around here that really irritates me cause of the poor quality of care the place and snakes are in. Didnt mean to take it out on all breeders and collectors. I was just really heated.

The next question is, how do you know there's five genes in there? The only way to know is it breed to racks upon racks of females and PRODUCE each of those five genes. So, is it really a five gene?

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

The next question is, how do you know there's five genes in there?

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Raise it and breed it to a normal. Face it, if I produce a five gene snake I'm holding it back. :D

If I ever get to that point, no one but close friends are gonna know until the little bugger makes all five genes come out.

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